What Must I Do to be Saved? John R. Rice

[Baptist Renegade]

I've never heard that said, but I'm not surprised. Tares growing among the wheat are bound to pick up on some of the jargon. The elect can't wait, but take the Kingdom by force. Matthew 11:12

"Tares" usually claim to be saved and remember that they are sown by the enemy!

"Goats" are the ones who likely "Think" they are saved but are not.

These guys I am speaking of admit they are NOT saved and are waiting for God to save them. This is what has me scratching my head thinking something is amiss. Actually goes against the "T" in Calvinist theology don't you think?

 

[Baptist Renegade]

"Tares" usually claim to be saved and remember that they are sown by the enemy!

"Goats" are the ones who likely "Think" they are saved but are not.

These guys I am speaking of admit they are NOT saved and are waiting for God to save them. This is what has me scratching my head thinking something is amiss. Actually goes against the "T" in Calvinist theology don't you think?

The point I was trying to make is that although I am Calvinistic and do believe that "regeneration precedes faith," I do not believe it to be something I would need to bring up to someone I am trying to lead to Christ. It is something more for me than them as I remember that it is GOD WHO GIVES THE INCREASE and not me. We can get overly technical in our explanation even getting into things we ourselves do not fully understand.

The people in question who are supposedly "Waiting for God to grant them repentance and faith to believe" have been done a disservice by their (I'm sure well-meaning) Calvinist pastor and hopefully they ran across some dumb backwoods preacher who was able to encourage them to "Make their calling and election sure!"

I believe that John R. Rice and the Apostle Paul had it right when they responded "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved!"

 

[Dr. Huk-N-Duck]

I don't pay much attention to philosophy, I try to stick with the scriptures although I do not always understand everything fully.

Horse-pucky. That’s intellectually lazy, not to mention it flies in the face of thousands of years worth of Christian and non-Christian reasoning. Plato, Socrates, St. Thomas Aquinas, Boetheus, etc., all believed in a natural order of learning that utilized philosophy and the natural sciences, while leading to theology.

 

[Dr. Huk-N-Duck]

You're forgetting the primary point.

Love.

A real Calvinist loves the Gospel, and can speak of little else. He also loves his fellow man. Love is the point in evangelization.

I’ll leave all other questions off the table for now and keep it simple. Just answer one question: Why eternally condemn a person who wasn’t predestined at birth?

 

[Baptist Renegade]

Horse-pucky. That’s intellectually lazy, not to mention it flies in the face of thousands of years worth of Christian and non-Christian reasoning. Plato, Socrates, St. Thomas Aquinas, Boetheus, etc., all believed in a natural order of learning that utilized philosophy and the natural sciences, while leading to theology.

John Witherspoon famously stated "Cursed be all learning that is not subservient to the cross of Christ!" I will put the scriptures first.

 

[ALAYMAN]

John Witherspoon famously stated "Cursed be all learning that is not subservient to the cross of Christ!" I will put the scriptures first.

To be fair to Huk’s point, I don’t think he’s saying to put the study of philosophy ahead of, or in place of theology, but rather inserting that supplemental discipline alongside Scripture. I distinctly remember hearing RC Sproul saying essentially the same thing, that good theology couldn’t adequately be done without sufficient background education in critical thinking skills attained via philosophical pursuits.

 

[ALAYMAN]

IMNSHO the main sticky wicket of the Calvinistic ordo salutis demanding that regeneration preceding faith is that in doing so it seems to assign faith to a status of a meritorious work. Faith is diametrically opposed to work so that interpretive framework doesn’t make sense to me.

 

[Baptist Renegade]

To be fair to Huk’s point, I don’t think he’s saying to put the study of philosophy ahead of, or in place of theology, but rather inserting that supplemental discipline alongside Scripture. I distinctly remember hearing RC Sproul saying essentially the same thing, that good theology couldn’t adequately be done without sufficient background education in critical thinking skills attained via philosophical pursuits.

I do not disagree but I also do not let Human reasoning warped by sin cloud my understanding of what is clearly written in scripture.

From a philosophical standpoint one may also ask why God would save anyone? Why didn't God just kill Adam and Eve the moment they sinned against him? Why didn't God just cast Satan into the Lake-of-Fire the moment he rebelled against God and before he could entice other angelic beings to join in the rebellion?

Finally, God must have known how everything would become so why did he move forward with the plan he had decreed?

 

[AverageJoe]

JRR definitely covered all the bases yet, he always came back to the simplicity of "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ." He very properly defined belief and repentance, prayer and confession and gave their proper application in the conversion of the soul.

My favorite part of this tract was there was no "1-2-3 pray after me". I have seen so many (I have been guilty of this myself) corner a person into saying a prayer then rejoice that he's led someone to Christ when in reality, he's done little more than put a notch in his pistol. In fact, what passes as "soul winning" is nothing more than counting coup. Not one person that I have wrestled into saying a prayer has shown any fruit. But there are those who have simply heard the gospel from my lips that I've bumped into further down the road who were displaying a Spirit-led life.

Is this tract wordy? Yes. Could it be boiled down? Maybe. But this tract is wonderful because if someone is being prompted by the Spirit, (how else do we come to Christ?) they'll drink it in. To this point, I'll say that there are many who mistake the mere passing out of tracts for evangelism.

I definitely would rather have a tract with not 1-2-3 pray after me, and it be long than to have it included and be misleading. JRR seemed to be above board and honest about salvation.

 

[AverageJoe]

I do not disagree but I also do not let Human reasoning warped by sin cloud my understanding of what is clearly written in scripture.

From a philosophical standpoint one may also ask why God would save anyone? Why didn't God just kill Adam and Eve the moment they sinned against him? Why didn't God just cast Satan into the Lake-of-Fire the moment he rebelled against God and before he could entice other angelic beings to join in the rebellion?

Finally, God must have known how everything would become so why did he move forward with the plan he had decreed?

Wow! This brings us back to the "Is God the Author of sin" discussion.

 

[Dr. Huk-N-Duck]

John Witherspoon famously stated "Cursed be all learning that is not subservient to the cross of Christ!" I will put the scriptures first.

Cool. Let’s just go back to the Middle Ages and completely halt all basic education, including elementary grammar and reading, and we’ll keep a Bible chained to the church in the town square, and we’ll have the local priest read it once or twice a day to whomever is interested. Once again, he’ll be the only guy in town capable of reading.

 

[AverageJoe]

Cool. Let’s just go back to the Middle Ages and completely halt all basic education, including elementary grammar and reading, and we’ll keep a Bible chained to the church in the town square, and we’ll have the local priest read it once or twice a day to whomever is interested. Once again, he’ll be the only guy in town capable of reading.

Wow...you got all that out of what BR said? I didn't.

 

[Dr. Huk-N-Duck]

Wow...you got all that out of what BR said? I didn't.

My point is, where does one draw the line, with his reasoning? Do we say any learning past high school should be strictly biblical? Do we say only certain courses in college should be biblical? It’s a slippery slope. Personally, I enjoy hearing a preacher who can converse and give real-world examples.

 

[AverageJoe]

My point is, where does one draw the line, with his reasoning? Do we say any learning past high school should be strictly biblical? Do we say only certain courses in college should be biblical? It’s a slippery slope. Personally, I enjoy hearing a preacher who can converse and give real-world examples.

I don't see that as what he's saying. He's just conveying what someone else has said. Your generation likes to "add to" for emphasis, don't they? LOL

 

[Baptist Renegade]

IMNSHO the main sticky wicket of the Calvinistic ordo salutis demanding that regeneration preceding faith is that in doing so it seems to assign faith to a status of a meritorious work. Faith is diametrically opposed to work so that interpretive framework doesn’t make sense to me.

First of all, I believe every believer believes that SAVING FAITH is something that is authored by God, is something that is bigger than ourselves. It is what sustains us, it is what conforms us to the image of Christ and is what moves us to his service. Without it, we would certainly falter and fail! Where faith actually "Happens" is debatable but we possess it nonetheless.

Secondly, I'm not sure what human "Faith" is required to believe what God has said. Romans 1:20 clearly states that the Invisible things of God are CLEARLY SEEN which render us WITHOUT EXCUSE! Unregenerate man has no interest or desire to acknowledge such things that would naturally lead himself to a sovereign God to whom he must stand accountable. He therefore exercises his "Faith" to believe anything else OTHER THAN the things which are clearly seen!

Jeremiah 17:9 states that "The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked..." I think we understand this within the context of a desperate criminal who will stop at nothing to evade capture and remain on the lam and a fugitive from justice right? The Sinner desperately desires to believe whatever "Alternate Truth" that keeps him from simply believing the things that are clearly seen! They desperately desire to believe that they came from a glob of goo through an infinite series or random events and will gladly follow such "Science" because the alternative is unthinkable to them. They desperately desire to believe that they were "Born" with a particular sexual orientation or were "Born" with a personality disposition that causes them to act a certain way! I could go on and on... The reason is simple: men love darkness rather than the light (Jn 3:19-21).

Therefore, faith is not a "Blind leap into darkness" but stepping out of the darkness into the light! It is turning away from silly superstitions and submitting yourself to the things which are clearly seen!

As someone who is pretty much "Calvinist" (although I really do not like the term), I simply acknowledge that the only time this happens is when someone becomes regenerate.

 

[ALAYMAN]

First of all, I believe every believer believes that SAVING FAITH is something that is authored by God, is something that is bigger than ourselves. It is what sustains us, it is what conforms us to the image of Christ and is what moves us to his service. Without it, we would certainly falter and fail! Where faith actually "Happens" is debatable but we possess it nonetheless.

Secondly, I'm not sure what human "Faith" is required to believe what God has said. Romans 1:20 clearly states that the Invisible things of God are CLEARLY SEEN which render us WITHOUT EXCUSE! Unregenerate man has no interest or desire to acknowledge such things that would naturally lead himself to a sovereign God to whom he must stand accountable. He therefore exercises his "Faith" to believe anything else OTHER THAN the things which are clearly seen!

Jeremiah 17:9 states that "The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked..." I think we understand this within the context of a desperate criminal who will stop at nothing to evade capture and remain on the lam and a fugitive from justice right? The Sinner desperately desires to believe whatever "Alternate Truth" that keeps him from simply believing the things that are clearly seen! They desperately desire to believe that they came from a glob of goo through an infinite series or random events and will gladly follow such "Science" because the alternative is unthinkable to them. They desperately desire to believe that they were "Born" with a particular sexual orientation or were "Born" with a personality disposition that causes them to act a certain way! I could go on and on... The reason is simple: men love darkness rather than the light (Jn 3:19-21).

Therefore, faith is not a "Blind leap into darkness" but stepping out of the darkness into the light! It is turning away from silly superstitions and submitting yourself to the things which are clearly seen!

As someone who is pretty much "Calvinist" (although I really do not like the term), I simply acknowledge that the only time this happens is when someone becomes regenerate.

Unfortunately I don’t have time to seriously engage too much today so I will try to get back to this description of faith later tonight or sometime tomorrow, but thanks for bringing substance and more Bible discussion to the FFF

 

[ALAYMAN]

Cool. Let’s just go back to the Middle Ages and completely halt all basic education, including elementary grammar and reading, and we’ll keep a Bible chained to the church in the town square, and we’ll have the local priest read it once or twice a day to whomever is interested. Once again, he’ll be the only guy in town capable of reading.

That’s a bit of a hyperbolic stretch to what he implied.

 

[Dr. Huk-N-Duck]

I don't see that as what he's saying. He's just conveying what someone else has said. Your generation likes to "add to" for emphasis, don't they? LOL

I was referencing his earlier quote: “I don't pay much attention to philosophy, I try to stick with the scriptures although I do not always understand everything fully.”

 

[Dr. Huk-N-Duck]

Before you and Ekk go off on a rabbit trail over this, allow me to interject my two cents:

We proclaim the gospel because GOD COMMANDED US TO! God has chosen the foolishness of preaching to save those who believe and woe unto us if we preach not the Gospel of Christ!

Everyone alive today who claims faith in Christ does so because they heard the WORD OF GOD PREACHED BY SOMEONE!

Now go get some Gospel tracts and OBEY THE LORD's Command!

Can God genuinely desire the salvation of those whom He, from eternity, unconditionally determined not to save, and is, in the words of Calvin, “pleased to exclude” and “doom to destruction”?

 

[Ransom]

I'd like to better understand the historical context of such a statement. You still had a lot of "Revivalism" going on back in his day with the old-fashioned "Mourners Bench" and I wonder if there was a legitimate concern over preachers saying you had to "Weep and Mourn" over your sin in order for God to hear you and to save you? Would this be a "Finney-esque" thing?

Finney didn't invent the Mourner's Bench (I believe that was John Wesley), but he introduced it into 19th-century revivalism. Finney believed that if you could induce the right psychological state in the sinners in the audience, they could be made willing to accept Jesus, and so the anxious bench was another one of his tricks for stirring their emotions.

You're probably right that Rice had something like it in mind, though by his time, I think he probably had the revivalism of Billy Sunday and his successors in mind, rather than Charles Finney.