Tell me about the GARBC (subllibrm et al)
- Thread starter ALAYMAN
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I think the church I attended in California for 12 years was associated with GARBC at least during the first few years I was there. I think they eventually drifted over to the Baptist General Conference. I found Grace Baptist Church to be a sound church. It was second only to Johnny Mac's church among Master's College/University students and faculty.
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Here's a brief synopsis on GARBC.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Association_of_Regular_Baptist_Churches
I find it interesting that modernization, aka liberalism, was such an issue 100 years ago.
Edit:
Here's a synopsis of the BGC:
en.m.wikipedia.org
Looking at both, I can see where Grace Baptist followed one then the other. John Piper was very revered amongst Grace Baptist staff back in the 1990s.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Association_of_Regular_Baptist_Churches
I find it interesting that modernization, aka liberalism, was such an issue 100 years ago.
Edit:
Here's a synopsis of the BGC:
Converge (United States) - Wikipedia
Looking at both, I can see where Grace Baptist followed one then the other. John Piper was very revered amongst Grace Baptist staff back in the 1990s.
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100 years ago was the thick of the fundamentalist-modernist controversy, which resulted in a whole lot of conservative Protestantism: The Fundamentals, J. Gresham Machen, Christianity and Liberalism, the Orthodox Presbyterian Church, GARBC, and others. The two denominations I've been associated with here in Canada, the Fellowship of Evangelical Baptists and the Associated Gospel Churches, were both formed from conservative churches that left liberal denominations.
Wasn't Dr. Bob GARBC? Or is my old age showing?
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Possibly, but as far as I can tell, the churches and schools he lists on his Facebook profile are all independent.
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Here's a brief synopsis on GARBC.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Association_of_Regular_Baptist_Churches
I find it interesting that modernization, aka liberalism, was such an issue 100 years ago.
Edit:
Here's a synopsis of the BGC:
Converge (United States) - Wikipedia
Looking at both, I can see where Grace Baptist followed one then the other. John Piper was very revered amongst Grace Baptist staff back in the 1990s.
I don’t think BGC has anything to do with GARBC, or were you just saying you had experience with BGC at the one church you attended?
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Johnny Mac was GARBC until Masters was founded.
Ah... That validates my memory... Because I remember hearing about GARBC soon after I began attending Grace Baptist. Like I said, next to Grace Community, Grace Baptist was second in attendance amongst Masters students and faculty. I do remember a few years after joining Grace Baptist some talking about Grace Baptist aligning with BGC (now Converge). I didn't think much about it at the time. I had no idea of John Piper's association with BGC. I do remember some of the pastors citing John Piper frequently in their teachings. So, yeah. It makes sense that I came to Grace Baptist which had a very strong GARBC alignment and watched it shift towards BGC.
Now, that was 20+ years ago. Grace Baptist is still around, it's still a very large church but all the pastors I knew are long gone. There was some "house cleaning" going on around the time I moved out of the area and a few of the pastors I knew and respected were let go which I couldn't understand. But even the movers and shakers that once held away are now gone. About half the people I attended Grace Baptist with migrated to other churches; while a few are still there last I heard. Where Grace Baptist aligns now I don't know. I do know the current senior pastor is Masters college/seminary trained.
BTW, Johnny Mac took the reins of LABC in 1985 and that was the start of Masters. Many of my friends were LABC alumni. The guy who led worship for our singles group was the son-in-law of LABC's last chancellor before Johnny Mac took over. I can see LABC being GARBC affiliated.
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LABC was a GARBC approved school. When the board offered the leadership to John MacArthur he initially refused because of that connection. Not because he had and issue with GARBC but because the Pennsylvania wing of the association was deeply hostile towards him. He eventually agreed to take the position and the GARBC eventually rescinded their approval of the school. Quick story to show the strained relationship. After the "Lordship Salvation" controversy had hit, MacArthur was invited to speak at the Grand Rapids Baptist College (now Cornerstone University) SS convention. The same said PA contingent boycotted and threatened to leave the association. Big deal around these parts. All of that is ancient history now. The GARBC dropped the school approving program after their negotiations to partner with Cedarville blew up in their face.
Whether he was ever a GARBC member I can't say but it would have been a prickly relationship I am sure. I do know that he was/is a member of the IFCA and has similar relationship challenges in that association.
So to answer the OP. GARBC came out of the modernism controversy. While some folks stayed to fight the issue from the inside many left and formed new associations. In my area the two most influential groups are the GARBC and the IFCA. IN the post war years the Grand Rapids area saw both groups thrive. The flagship GARBC church was Wealthy Street Baptist pastored by David Otis Fuller The IFCA was anchored by Calvary Undenominational Church lead by M.R. DeHaan. DeHaan also founded Radio Bible Class and Our Daily Bread. Full disclosure, I am currently an employee of ODB.
Having had the opportunity to worship and minister in churches and para church ministries of both groups, I am convinced that there is not a nickels worth of difference between them. The one point of contention (if it even qualifies as that today) is that the IFCA will accept you for membership upon confession of faith and then baptize you at the earliest convenience, also known s warm weather. The GARBC on the other hand will accept your confession of faith but withholds membership responsibilities and privileges until after baptism has occurred. Get past that and their faith statements are indistinguishable.
The GARBC is an association of like minded churches. They operate independently from each other yet in affiliation for the purpose of joint missions, training and fellowship. There is no ecclesiastical relationship between congregations in that the local pastor is the sole head of that church. That said, the governance structure varies from church to church with a head pastor/deacon board structure being most common. Many churches (like mine) have switched to an elder led structure. This would be a good example of how the independence of the member churches plays out in everyday practice. As with any wide ranging association, there is a broad variation in regards to conservative vs more liberal views on such things as music and service structure. When I first started hanging around the FFF I was routinely chastised for my involvement in such a compromising group. I found that funny because the PA folks referred to earlier could put any IFB church to shame regarding "standards".
I hope that I was able to muddy the waters for you all.
Whether he was ever a GARBC member I can't say but it would have been a prickly relationship I am sure. I do know that he was/is a member of the IFCA and has similar relationship challenges in that association.
So to answer the OP. GARBC came out of the modernism controversy. While some folks stayed to fight the issue from the inside many left and formed new associations. In my area the two most influential groups are the GARBC and the IFCA. IN the post war years the Grand Rapids area saw both groups thrive. The flagship GARBC church was Wealthy Street Baptist pastored by David Otis Fuller The IFCA was anchored by Calvary Undenominational Church lead by M.R. DeHaan. DeHaan also founded Radio Bible Class and Our Daily Bread. Full disclosure, I am currently an employee of ODB.
Having had the opportunity to worship and minister in churches and para church ministries of both groups, I am convinced that there is not a nickels worth of difference between them. The one point of contention (if it even qualifies as that today) is that the IFCA will accept you for membership upon confession of faith and then baptize you at the earliest convenience, also known s warm weather. The GARBC on the other hand will accept your confession of faith but withholds membership responsibilities and privileges until after baptism has occurred. Get past that and their faith statements are indistinguishable.
The GARBC is an association of like minded churches. They operate independently from each other yet in affiliation for the purpose of joint missions, training and fellowship. There is no ecclesiastical relationship between congregations in that the local pastor is the sole head of that church. That said, the governance structure varies from church to church with a head pastor/deacon board structure being most common. Many churches (like mine) have switched to an elder led structure. This would be a good example of how the independence of the member churches plays out in everyday practice. As with any wide ranging association, there is a broad variation in regards to conservative vs more liberal views on such things as music and service structure. When I first started hanging around the FFF I was routinely chastised for my involvement in such a compromising group. I found that funny because the PA folks referred to earlier could put any IFB church to shame regarding "standards".
I hope that I was able to muddy the waters for you all.
I heard that but also heard that he was IFCA until he was kicked out for being Calvinistic.
GARBC is like the BBFI with a wide spectrum of churches with differing beliefs and practices. Some are Calvinistic and others are not. I checked out a GARBC Church for a few weeks. The pastor was very argumentative with me trying to pick a fight in front of my wife and kids. Supposedly a graduate of Dallas Theological and told me he believed everything MacArthur believed. He held to what was pretty much a "NKJV Only" position and finally showed his true colors and I called him an "Idiot" after services at a restaurant in front of my wife and kids which saw to it that I could never go back there (because I would not put my family under a pastor I thought to be an idiot).
I heard shortly thereafter that the Church went bankrupt and lost their property. Pretty much because the pastor was an idiot as I had said and the congregation was too stupid to figure things out until it was too late.
Not sure if all GARBC Churches are this way but this is my experience.
Ketcham was a very sound leader of the GARBC
About the Calvinism, read Kenneth Goods book about "Are Baptists Calvinists" It gives an overview of Calvinism thriving up until the 1980s in the GARB
About the Calvinism, read Kenneth Goods book about "Are Baptists Calvinists" It gives an overview of Calvinism thriving up until the 1980s in the GARB
I was reading up on this subject when I came across an article where both Johnny Mac and John Piper were describing how their fathers guided them into the ministry. Johnny Mac related, "My father gave me a bible. In it he wrote, 'Johnny, just preach the Word. Love, Dad.'"
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Some reading for you:
en.wikipedia.org
www.garbc.org
en.wikipedia.org
www.ifca.org
General Association of Regular Baptist Churches - Wikipedia
GARBC | General Association of Regular Baptist Churches | Making disciples through healthy local churches
We are built on the Word of God and are an association of churches, the very institution that Christ Himself promised to build. Founded in 1932, we remain steadfast in the belief and practice of the teaching of the Scriptures. Let us help you with the daily challenges of ministry and connect you...
www.garbc.org
IFCA International - Wikipedia
IFCA International - Home Page
www.ifca.org
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Thanks peeps.
Here’s a good primer on some of the controversies (Calvinism included) that developed over the years, and there’s a part two of this as well if you care to google…
Link
“Second, a number of controversies at various times have led some to drop their GARBC identification. In the mid-1970s the Association sought to clarify and update their doctrinal statement, which they did. In the process, the issue of Calvinism with its view of unconditional election was raised, discussed and debated, resulting in some local churches on both sides of the issue deciding to drop their affiliation. Others were disheartened when “approved” agencies broadened out and no longer wanted the exclusive GARBC identification. In 1985, Los Angeles Baptist College became The Masters College with Dr. John MacArthur as its president and dropped its GARBC connection.“
Here’s a good primer on some of the controversies (Calvinism included) that developed over the years, and there’s a part two of this as well if you care to google…
Link
“Second, a number of controversies at various times have led some to drop their GARBC identification. In the mid-1970s the Association sought to clarify and update their doctrinal statement, which they did. In the process, the issue of Calvinism with its view of unconditional election was raised, discussed and debated, resulting in some local churches on both sides of the issue deciding to drop their affiliation. Others were disheartened when “approved” agencies broadened out and no longer wanted the exclusive GARBC identification. In 1985, Los Angeles Baptist College became The Masters College with Dr. John MacArthur as its president and dropped its GARBC connection.“
I came on the scene in late '87 early '88. Now that I think about it, the majority of folks who attended Grace Baptist were LABC folks. So, I'm sure the old GARBC vanguard faded slowly. To me, it was all "Masters". There seemed to be unity among the Masters and the former LABC crowds. Again, now that I think of it, there were subtle differences.
I chose to attend Grace Baptist instead of Grace Community because Grace Baptist was smaller and conveniently located katty corner to the Masters campus whereas, Grace Community was huge with a 20 minute freeway drive over the Newhall Pass into L.A. then fighting the traffic on Roscoe Blvd. In fact, I had made the decision to attend Grace Baptist even before I moved out of Virginia where I had just gotten out of the Navy.
I have extensive experience. They were the first fundamentalists in the North. Robert Ketchum led them out of the Northern Baptist Convention. They are not as far extreme as Hyles any more. They have accredited seminaries and they use other bible versions and contemporary music, at least in the churches I have been involved in. Others are much more right wing.
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Thanks, that was a general observation that I made, and doing some brief research as well. I’m looking for a middle ground, not wanting to throw the baby out with the bathwater so to speak.
Cedarville was aligned with the GARBC at one time, and they used the NIV, contemporary music and girls can wear pant and shorts there. They are not aligned with it since about 2015 I think, though.
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I/we ain't quite ready to lurch that far from the fundy mold.
I think the thing with courting the SBC chilled the relationship with the right-side of the GARBC. I thought long and hard about ALAYBOY going to Cedarville for the purpose of having a considerably more wholesome collegiate environment, but alas, he wanted the urban experience.