Church Attempts To Extradite Member Fleeing From Abusive Pastor

ALAYMAN said:
So are you saying that Church discipline is antiquated and stupid in general? Or just that the manner (of church discipline) in which some people wield power over the sheep is wrong?
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Power over the people I’d say is wrong and becomes a cult, quickly.
 
Bruh said:
Sincere question. Where does it say in the Bible that a born again believer is required to be a member of a church?
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The places where it says to obey your elders (Heb. 13:17) or not to forsake assembling with other Christians (Heb. 10:25).

Maybe "membership" doesn't always look like the contemporary model, but in order for anyone to obey those commands, there necessarily must be some sort of agreement where Christians are under the legitimate authority of those elders that are chosen and commissioned to lead the assembly.
 
Bruh said:
Power over the people I’d say is wrong and becomes a cult, quickly.
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What do you do with the power granted to the church leaders in passages like this…

“It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you. For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, to deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭5‬:‭1‬-‭5
 
Tarheel Baptist said:
Are you postulating that church discipline is a man made concept?
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I think the possibility of a drumhead court-martial exists. I would imagine the member must be quite nervous with this type of “justice” being rendered. I’m actually contemplating researching the concept of assisting with legal counsel in this matter. Perhaps this is a niche not being served. While I understand that the courts do not intervene in matters of internal church governance, the member would benefit from someone reviewing the church bylaws and speaking on their behalf.
 
DrHuk&Duck said:
I’m referring more to the manner in which it’s done. I haven’t heard of church disciplinary measures being taken in decades. My last memory of this type of thing was from around the 1995ish. I was a teen at the time, but I recall even then thinking how this was being done in such a selective manner. One man was disciplined for having an affair. I remember that one well because I was dating his daughter at the time. Another one was a big woman with a big mouth. Her sin, apparently, was being a big ol’ gossip.
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Adultery and sexual sins, such as fornication, as I pointed to in the previous post are legitimate reasons for discipline, as is gossip. The Bible says that somebody who isn’t willing to work shouldn’t be entitled to eat (2 Thes 3). That same passage says that those who are lazy and won’t work are apt to become busy bodies. Those kinds of behaviors are warned against, to the extent that the apostle says to withdrawal from such people who claimed to be Christians, but live such antinomian lifestyles, particularly if they have been taught and refuse to grow in grace. Sounds pretty harsh by today’s standards of laissez-faire Christianity.
 
ALAYMAN said:
Adultery and sexual sins, such as fornication, as I pointed to in the previous post are legitimate reasons for discipline, as is gossip. The Bible says that somebody who isn’t willing to work shouldn’t be entitled to eat (2 Thes 3). That same passage says that those who are lazy and won’t work are apt to become busy bodies. Those kinds of behaviors are warned against, to the extent that the apostle says to withdrawal from such people who claimed to be Christians, but live such antinomian lifestyles, particularly if they have been taught and refuse to grow in grace. Sounds pretty harsh by today’s standards of laissez-faire Christianity.
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I can understand that a church member who is actively engaged in a sin such as adultery, can (and perhaps should) be church disciplined. As I previously mentioned, my girlfriend’s dad had this happen to him while I was dating his daughter. It was heartbreaking for everyone involved, but he refused to repent. I guess on a bright note, he eventually married the woman and had a kid and has been married ever since, but on the flip side, I’m not sure his daughters ever really recovered.

You are an assistant pastor of some type, from what I understand. Have you been involved with these church discipline meetings before? How would you react to a church member requesting representation at the meeting, even if not cognizable?
 
Yes, two times in over 20 years I’ve been involved with church discipline. Once it was resolved without going before the church, and the other resulted in the people leaving the church.

Regarding the possibility of having a lawyer present in such cases, my inclination is to say no, as our goal is restoration, not litigation.
 
ALAYMAN said:
Regarding the possibility of having a lawyer present in such cases, my inclination is to say no, as our goal is restoration, not litigation.
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My thinking was of a non-litigious nature…more of a mediator. The church member would have a representative to help review church bylaws and be a “friend in the room.” I know there’s not a big market for this, but perhaps it’s an overlooked little niche that exists. Obviously we would work together to foster a win-win outcome for both the member and church.
 
Ransom said:
How many times on this forum was the word "gossip" thrown around during discussions of the various Hyles- and FBCH-related scandals, most of which by then were a matter of public record? I don't regard it as a serious accusation. It's a thought-terminating cliche.
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I suppose that much of what we post on this forum could be considered "gossip," which some people think is an offense worthy of excommunication. Maybe that's why we do it here anonymously. :cool:

Were the Corinthians guilty of "gossip," and was Paul guilty for listening to them?

"For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you." - 1 Corinthians 1:11

"It is commonly reported that there is fornication among you. . . ." - 1 Corinthians 5:1

"For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you: and I partly believe it." - 1 Corinthians 11:18

Some of this zeal to stamp out so-called "gossip" in the church is actually motivated by the desire to conceal and cover up wrong-doing by the church leadership. That would explain why Bill Gothard, whose organization had its share of scandals, emphasized the need to refuse to "listen to an evil report." and to "see no evil."

www.recoveringgrace.org

Silencing the Lambs: Listening to an Evil Report

A closer look at Bill Gothard's teaching on the "Defilement of Listening to an Evil Report."
www.recoveringgrace.org www.recoveringgrace.org
 
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Ransom said:
I think you're just making excuses to avoid being accountable to others.
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Maybe so……but my experience tells me it’s never the pastor or staff’s fault and there’re actually the ones that don’t want accountability.
 
ALAYMAN said:
What do you do with the power granted to the church leaders in passages like this…

“It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you. For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, to deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭5‬:‭1‬-‭5
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For me, if it’s stated black and white in scripture and the pastor or staff or others in the church have a good relationship with the one in sin and approached in love……no issue there.

My experience is probably different than yours and as @Ransom stated it’s probably all my fault and don’t want to be accountable to no one. Which I disagree with I’m being sarcastic. I definitely have no issue with being held accountable, be it my wife or work associates. Men are to fleshly in my experience to allow them to have that much power of you.

My experience tells me, that man will step out side of scripture to control people from the pulpit if not approach them face to face with no scripture to back them up.
 
DrHuk&Duck said:
I think the possibility of a drumhead court-martial exists. I would imagine the member must be quite nervous with this type of “justice” being rendered. I’m actually contemplating researching the concept of assisting with legal counsel in this matter. Perhaps this is a niche not being served. While I understand that the courts do not intervene in matters of internal church governance, the member would benefit from someone reviewing the church bylaws and speaking on their behalf.
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Is that a yes or a no as to church discipline being a man made doctrine?
 
Biblical Church Discipline is not an obscure process practiced only by cult like churches.
It is not a public humiliation but starts privately and informally.
It grows to include the whole church only after private appeals have failed.
In its final, formal, public stage, it iremoves the unrepentant offenderfrom membership in the church and participation in the Lord’s Table.

1 Corinthians 5 informs us that the goal of discipline is always redemption and restoration (v.4) protecting the body (v.6) and honoring the name of Christ (v.1).
 
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DrHuk&Duck said:
I’d politely decline the invitation if asked.
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Church discipline is a congregational and ecclesiastical matter. It is not an individual matter.

Disciplinary action is necessary when sin is open, public, a reproach on the gospel of Christ, and impacts the reputation of the congregation. You may find yourself in the middle of such a matter whether you want it or not. I cannot think of a single pastor, elder, or anyone else who wouldn't choose elective root canal surgery over having to deal with such matters!

Perhaps you will never be a pastor or elder so you may never be in "closed door" meetings or having to directly confront or deal with the offender but you may be the person to whom such sin first comes to light. It is typically someone who is "close" that the matter would be revealed so yes, you would be duty-bound to act in a biblical manner!

The final step (excommunication) is usually a congregational matter whereas a business meeting would typically be convened where the congregation would officially "Vote" the offender off the membership roll and bar them from the communion table.
 
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