SBC vs IFB

Those who want to do more research on the SBC North American Mission Board may want to check out this from The Wartburg Watch. This blogger is a former SBC who is now Lutheran. I suppose her remarks can be taken as "sour grapes" so take it for what it's worth.

"Did you know that you have no way to find out how the NAMB is spending its money? . . . Guess what. The NAMB would not release its staff structure except for six top leaders! . . . Did you know that there are critics who believe there may be fraud in the NAMB? At the SBC meeting last June, motions were made, trying to force transparency. It was unsuccessful. . . . Church plant spending has increased by $50 million while starting half as many churches. . . . I have long asked how many church plants have failed. I can’t get an answer because they don’t have to tell anyone. We can’t determine how much money is spent on salaries, benefits, and perks for the NAMB leaders who are apparently living stress-free lives since they don’t have to tell anyone anything."

 
illinoisguy said:
Those who want to do more research on the SBC North American Mission Board may want to check out this from The Wartburg Watch. This blogger is a former SBC who is now Lutheran. I suppose her remarks can be taken as "sour grapes" so take it for what it's worth.

"Did you know that you have no way to find out how the NAMB is spending its money? . . . Guess what. The NAMB would not release its staff structure except for six top leaders! . . . Did you know that there are critics who believe there may be fraud in the NAMB? At the SBC meeting last June, motions were made, trying to force transparency. It was unsuccessful. . . . Church plant spending has increased by $50 million while starting half as many churches. . . . I have long asked how many church plants have failed. I can’t get an answer because they don’t have to tell anyone. We can’t determine how much money is spent on salaries, benefits, and perks for the NAMB leaders who are apparently living stress-free lives since they don’t have to tell anyone anything."

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This is among some of the things I am hearing which gives me great concern. In one respect, I see NAMB as a quick source of funding and perhaps even the "path of least resistance" but where is the accountability? I also see a big disconnect between supporting churches and the missionaries themselves! If I am going to go out and raise funds for missions efforts, I want as much of this funding to get to the missionaries and not to an over-inflated and inefficient bureaucracy where staffers are paid six-figure salaries and flying first-class! I am also hearing that they utilize certain "metrics" for success as I often heard in IFB circles (Baptisms, Decisions, Attendance numbers, etc.) and that you are constantly under the gun to maintain such metrics.
 
More on NAMB - controversy over whether or not disgraced missions executive Johnny Hunt was being paid $610,000 a year by NAMB:

"The former executive vice president at NAMB — who was felled by a sexual abuse scandal — claims in court filings to have been paid $610,000 annually at NAMB. The 71-year-old says that’s $6.7 million in future income he claims he lost when he was forced to resign. . . . it’s the $610,000 in compensation from NAMB that has turned heads in the SBC. People in the pew and even megachurch pastors can’t comprehend a denominational executive being paid that much in offering money."

baptistnews.com

NAMB skewered for its nonresponse response on Hunt's compensation – Baptist News Global

Some of the most conservative media outlets covering Christianity are skewering NAMB for its policy of communication by obfuscation.
baptistnews.com baptistnews.com

See also: "Hunt was the vice president of evangelism and leadership until 2022 when he resigned after credible allegations surfaced that he sexually assaulted the wife of a fellow pastor in 2010."

churchleaders.com

NAMB Responds to ‘Some Speculation Online’ About Executives’ Salaries Following Johnny Hunt’s Claim of $610K in Annual Earnings

The North American Mission Board has responded to claims that it pays its executives exorbitant salaries in light of a lawsuit filed by disgraced Pastor Johnny Hunt in which Hunt claims he received $610,000 in annual compensation while employed at NAMB.
churchleaders.com churchleaders.com

See also: "NAMB falsely claims they are not able to show employee salaries, for which Hunt’s alleged salary would not be the only source of outrage. Moreover, the $610,000 per year for 11 years is total compensation, not base salary. NAMB is denying that they paid a salary close to $600,000; however, they do not specify total compensation."

evangelicaldarkweb.org

SBC Attempts To Deny It Paid Johnny Hunt $600K Salary - Evangelical Dark Web

The Southern Baptist Convention is embroiled in numerous lawsuits and one of the most salacious lawsuits is Johnny Hunt's lawsuit due to the high salary
evangelicaldarkweb.org evangelicaldarkweb.org

See also: "NAMB says Hunt wasn’t paid what he says he was paid, but also doesn’t want to name him him by name, and also doesn’t want to clear up the confusion by sharing how much he actually made, rebuffing all attempts at clarity. . . . A decade ago, Hunt engaged in what he describes as a 'brief, consensual extramarital encounter,' and what the woman involved maintains was non-consensual sexual assault. His church was never told about the incident and he went through a secret restoration."

protestia.com

NAMB Disputes Johnny Hunt's $610K/Year Salary Claim In the Most Secretive, Stupid Way Possible - Protestia

As disgraced pastor Johnny Hunt continues his litigious quest of suing his denomination for $100M, including $6.7M in lost wages and compensation for a decade’s worth of future earnings after the SBC’s Guidepost report accused him of sexual abuse, (see endnotes) the North American Mission Board...
protestia.com protestia.com
 
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Bruh said:
About 6 years or so. We’ve had couples over and tried to hangout multiple times but just never had that connection, I guess.

And then at some point it becomes where we are the only ones reaching out and then when we stop making the effort the communication stops.

It is what it is. We go, we leave they are happy to see us. They are nice people never rude, always nice.

It’s a large church close to 1,000 people every Sunday. We’ve talked about visiting other churches but we actually really like the pastors preaching. Very relevant in context, very relatable preaching. It’s been good for us.

We find close friendships in the community and work and I believe we are good with that.

I will say, IFB definitely tries to pull people in. I’ll give them that.
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Have you tried a Sunday School class/small group?
 
In all fairness to @Bruh, I’ve been where he’s at. In my experience, the more conservative a church is, the more cliquish it can be. I experienced a time period where it didn’t matter if I went to every service, attended Sunday school, etc., it was obvious I wasn’t going to be accepted. In my situation, it didn’t really end up mattering because about half the church members ended up leaving anyway—it just took me longer to join them in seeing the light. Sadly, in some churches, if you don’t fit the exact image they’re looking for, they’ll shake your hand and smile, but that’s the extent of it. Like Bruh, I’ve even tried having some members over for fellowship and had the gesture never reciprocated.

However, where Bruh and I are different is that I never adopted a defeatist attitude and just settled for “listening to a message and driving away.” I’m happy to say that my new church seems to be much more welcoming, supportive and accepting. I’m still feeling my way around this SBC world, but I don’t feel like a square peg in a round hole, and that’s how I felt in my IFB church for pretty much my entire life. Hence the reason I encouraged Bruh to look for a smaller SBC church in which he can potentially still get a good message but also find some fellowship.
 
Dr. Duck said:
In all fairness to @Bruh, I’ve been where he’s at. In my experience, the more conservative a church is, the more cliquish it can be. I experienced a time period where it didn’t matter if I went to every service, attended Sunday school, etc., it was obvious I wasn’t going to be accepted. In my situation, it didn’t really end up mattering because about half the church members ended up leaving anyway—it just took me longer to join them in seeing the light. Sadly, in some churches, if you don’t fit the exact image they’re looking for, they’ll shake your hand and smile, but that’s the extent of it. Like Bruh, I’ve even tried having some members over for fellowship and had the gesture never reciprocated.

However, where Bruh and I are different is that I never adopted a defeatist attitude and just settled for “listening to a message and driving away.” I’m happy to say that my new church seems to be much more welcoming, supportive and accepting. I’m still feeling my way around this SBC world, but I don’t feel like a square peg in a round hole, and that’s how I felt in my IFB church for pretty much my entire life. Hence the reason I encouraged Bruh to look for a smaller SBC church in which he can potentially still get a good message but also find some fellowship.
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I don’t feel my wife and I have a defeatist attitude.

We have friends just not in church. These are good family men, wholesome couples.

These couples know our story and we know theirs. These are good people that we hangout with often. We genuinely enjoy there company. I don’t believe, we settled either.

We talk, we laugh, ride side by sides together, go to the lake, watch football, watch UFC and they even know about you guys 😂 and because they’ve never been IFB they don’t understand the cult mentality.

Now, if we wouldn’t have found our friend group, I can see where someone might say you are lonely and they’d be correct. But we also have family that we are very close with and our friends spend time with our family as well.
 
Bruh said:
I don’t feel my wife and I have a defeatist attitude.

We have friends just not in church. These are good family men, wholesome couples.

These couples know our story and we know theirs. These are good people that we hangout with often. We genuinely enjoy there company. I don’t believe, we settled either.

We talk, we laugh, ride side by sides together, go to the lake, watch football, watch UFC and they even know about you guys 😂 and because they’ve never been IFB they don’t understand the cult mentality.

Now, if we wouldn’t have found our friend group, I can see where someone might say you are lonely and they’d be correct. But we also have family that we are very close with and our friends spend time with our family as well.
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There’s nothing wrong with having non-church friends, at least in my opinion. Having family nearby is a bonus as well, at least if everyone gets along. I think all people are saying is that it’s a good idea to have at least one or two church friends to mix in with the group.
 
Baptist Renegade said:
Because going to church is far more than just hearing "good preaching!" It is a "Church family" to which you need to be connected with, belong to, where you are accountable one with another, and where you are exercising your spiritual gifts. This is important not only for you but for your family as well.

I am not saying you go to your pastor and complain about it but to ask him where he could see you in his congregation and perhaps help you to become better connected?

I do not know you or whether there is something in your past bring about trust issues or whatever but if so, your pastor could help you sort through such things.

And by all means, keep the "life" you have outside of the church. Just make your "Church life" and your "personal life" the SAME LIFE!
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I’ve always been confused when they say, church family. What does that mean exactly?

Family to me means, every Christmas’s together, every Thanksgivings together, every birthdays together, need money without expecting it back, they are there for you in the middle of the night at 1 a.m in a tragedy and will miss work 2 and 3 weeks at a time without pay to be there for you. Pay for medical expenses more than once in a love offering. Every week if need be. Family will drive 12 hours one way for the death of a child and stay the entire month. When a family gets arrested and put in jail, family puts money in their account every single month till they get out and helps pay his wife’s bills every single month till they get back on their feet.

This is family, have you experienced what I’ve explained in a church family? I’ve only seen and experienced this with blood family not church family. See the difference?

I have friends that hold me accountable. I believe that if I was going to or in the middle of an affair on my wife they’d talk to me. If I was lazy and didn’t work they’d ask me, what’s your problem.

As spiritual gifts go, we do that on a daily basis at work at home in the community with neighbors.
 
Dr. Duck said:
There’s nothing wrong with having non-church friends, at least in my opinion. Having family nearby is a bonus as well, at least if everyone gets along. I think all people are saying is that it’s a good idea to have at least one or two church friends to mix in with the group.
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I understand. And I’m not against it it just hasn’t happened since leaving the IFB.
 
Bruh said:
I’ve always been confused when they say, church family. What does that mean exactly?

Family to me means, every Christmas’s together, every Thanksgivings together, every birthdays together, need money without expecting it back, they are there for you in the middle of the night at 1 a.m in a tragedy and will miss work 2 and 3 weeks at a time without pay to be there for you. Pay for medical expenses more than once in a love offering. Every week if need be. Family will drive 12 hours one way for the death of a child and stay the entire month. When a family gets arrested and put in jail, family puts money in their account every single month till they get out and helps pay his wife’s bills every single month till they get back on their feet.

This is family, have you experienced what I’ve explained in a church family? I’ve only seen and experienced this with blood family not church family. See the difference?

I have friends that hold me accountable. I believe that if I was going to or in the middle of an affair on my wife they’d talk to me. If I was lazy and didn’t work they’d ask me, what’s your problem.

As spiritual gifts go, we do that on a daily basis at work at home in the community with neighbors.
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I agree that we have abused the word family.
Today we have our baseball team family, our dance team family etc.
I was fortunate to have a large, close extended family and experienced what you describe above from them. I have also been fortunate enough to experience the very same things through our church family.
 
Alot of what caused the IFBs to be critical of the SBC stemmed from Bob Jones University (and its daughter/sister schools).

Dr Beals book House on the Sand gave IFBs an opportunity to develop an antiSBC posture.

Same as GARB, MacArthur, Billy Graham... alot of unnecessary and unChristian posturing. Colleges gotta make their quota... often by just being unjust to other colleges. Much of internal squabbling is a direct cause of school loyalties.

SBCs vary from church to church in the levels of Calvinistic thought. Our church in Gulf Shores AL had a pastor who was Calvinistic and then 4 years ago brought in an antiCalvinist. The SBC, like IFBs are a mixed bag depending on the lead pastor.
 
Baptist Renegade said:
Not all churches have the financial ability to provide 100% financial support for those they "send out" as missionaries, church planters, and so forth. I do believe that it is more beneficial for a church to maybe support 2-3 missionaries (100% or close to) than to have a wall full of "Prayer Letters" of missionaries you are supporting for $50/Month or whatever but maybe this is just me? If a missionary receives most of their support from two to three churches, he needs to depend on their faithfulness as he will really be in a pickle if there is a "Church Split" or some other crisis resulting in a change of priorities, ministry direction, or whatever. This is where it is advantageous for a missionary to have his support spread around a hundred or so churches. If 100 churches each gave $50/Month support ($5,000/Month total) and one of the churches flaked out, he could likely make adjustments and remain on the field.

"Building Tents" is an option in countries where missionaries have the ability to find employment in the host nation's economy. Some countries will not allow this. If one needs to do such in order to take care of their family, this will sap a good deal of time and energy one would have to do the actual missionary work. I believe there are many who do have some sort of "side hustle" when they are able to do so.

In the Philippines, there are plenty of "Indigenous" pastors who are adequately trained in local Bible Colleges/Seminaries (and speak the language) but there is very little in the way of extra resources whereby one could focus their time on getting a new work established from scratch. Pastors are paid poorly as it is. My church is currently partnering with another church in supporting a new church plant. From discussions I have had with other pastors, I know that many of them desire to plant additional churches but finances are always an issue. This is where I am hoping to help.
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I've given this a lot of thought and prayer. FWIW, I was a missionary who was sent out by my home church at one time. I understand the ifs and buts, and the whys and whys not.
I believe that a missionary sent out by a church should be considered another pastor of that church. He should stay at that local church, doing all he can to build it up spiritually and financially until it can support him full-time, wherever the church wants to send him. Instead of spending dollars and time running all over the county begging for support, he could spend that time building up his local church, then, when the church is financially capable, he can be sent out to wherever the church determines. At that time, he'd just be a pastor from his home church, serving where he was sent by them.
I've known one church that practiced this, and it worked beautifully.
While he is working with his local church, the pastor and other leaders can develop close relationships with him to help him grow spiritually.
I didn't make myself clear, but during this time, he can also work full-time, caring for his family and supporting his home church.
Once on the field, he is answerable to no one but his home church.
 
Some of the more contemporary IFB (though they wouldn't use that term) are where many SBC churches used to be. IFB is like SBC in that every church is independent.
 
Ransom said:
The end result of which is, potentially, a church that pays lip service to missionary work but doesn't send any actual missionaries.

Better that there be some, than none.



Working in a host country is not always legal for foreign nationals, however.
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There's potintial pitfalls to everything. But a person doesn't have to move to a foreign country to be a missionary. That is putting the cart before the horse. First, you are a missionary at home, then you go where the Lord leads. A person who isn't making disciples at home most likely won't do it if they are somewhere else.

Ransom said:
The end result of which is, potentially, a church that pays lip service to missionary work but doesn't send any actual missionaries.

Better that there be some, than none.



Working in a host country is not always legal for foreign nationals, however.
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It's permissible in most foreign countries, especially if a person enters the country with a skilled labor. I know a missionary who does part-time computer programming and web page layout in a foreign country that won't allow missionaries. I used to know a welder who went to Australia.
 
Plowman said:
It's permissible in most foreign countries, especially if a person enters the country with a skilled labor. I know a missionary who does part-time computer programming and web page layout in a foreign country that won't allow missionaries. I used to know a welder who went to Australia.
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Not sure about ‘most will’ but many many do not. Depends I assume on what your visa states.
 
Plowman said:
There's potintial pitfalls to everything. But a person doesn't have to move to a foreign country to be a missionary. That is putting the cart before the horse. First, you are a missionary at home, then you go where the Lord leads. A person who isn't making disciples at home most likely won't do it if they are somewhere else.
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'Zactly.
 
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