DEBUNKING THE MYTH of HELL

Route_70 said:
logos1560 said:
Does your response show use of the fallacy of reversing the burden of proof?  Instead of honoring your own burden of proof by proving your own claims to be true, you try to reverse the burden of proof.    That would suggest that your demands are insincere and invalid.  Use of a fallacy would not support your opinions.  Do you attempt to rationalize or excuse your failure to prove what you claimed?

You have not shown that you will accept what the Bible states and teaches as authoritative.    You have avoided some posts where  the Bible has been cited or quoted.

Are you suggesting that you will accept what the Bible states instead of your unproven opinions that you have been posting in this thread?

Blah, blah, blah ...

As usual, the typical wordy, mindless response.

Perhaps you described your own response [for entertainment purposes only] instead of the proper response that you were given.

Do you reveal that you do not seek the truth according to your own signature line?
 
Route_70 said:
So, the fire is "everlasting."  What about the torment?  Where is the verse that says "everlasting torment?"

"Real fire" seems to be there; but where does the Bible say "eternal torment?"

The Bible refers to "everlasting fire" and "hell fire" (Matthew 18:8, 9) along with pointing out that in hell a person was "tormented in this flame" (Luke 16:23-24). 

Since the flame of the fire in hell tormented, does that not suggest that this everlasting fire would result in eternal torment?
 
Route_70 said:
"Everlasting punishment:"  Let's see.  Death is everlasting, is it not? 

To which death do you refer:  the first death or the second death?

How can the first death be everlasting when there is a second death?

Revelation 20:14-15
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.  This is the second death.
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and the murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone; which is the second death.

 
logos1560 said:
Since the flame of the fire in hell tormented, does that not suggest that this everlasting fire would result in eternal torment?

Suggest?  The passage specifically says "everlasting fire."  But Jesus  said that body and soul are destroyed in hell (Matthew 10:28).

logos1560 said:
Revelation 20:14-15
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.  This is the second death.
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and the murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone; which is the second death.

One again, nothing here about "eternal torment."  Anyone alive who has ever seen a bondfire knows what a fire does to whatever it burns:  it consumes it entirely.

Regarding Luke 16 and the story of Lazarus and the rich man:  that can hardly be expected to be believed as real:  how hot must the fire be; in how much torment must the rich man be if he says that a single drop of water would assuage his torment?

Let me repeat that:  if hell is a real place of fire and torment, according to Luke 16, then according to Luke 16 a single drop of water, if it could be attained, would be enough to quench the flame.

Really?
 
Route_70 said:
logos1560 said:
Since the flame of the fire in hell tormented, does that not suggest that this everlasting fire would result in eternal torment?

Suggest?  The passage specifically says "everlasting fire."  But Jesus  said that body and soul are destroyed in hell (Matthew 10:28).

logos1560 said:
Revelation 20:14-15
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.  This is the second death.
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and the murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone; which is the second death.

One again, nothing here about "eternal torment."  Anyone alive who has ever seen a bondfire knows what a fire does to whatever it burns:  it consumes it entirely.

Regarding Luke 16 and the story of Lazarus and the rich man: that can hardly be expected to be believed as real:  how hot must the fire be; in how much torment must the rich man be if he says that a single drop of water would assuage his torment?

Let me repeat that:  if hell is a real place of fire and torment, according to Luke 16, then according to Luke 16 a single drop of water, if it could be attained, would be enough to quench the flame.

Really?
Since the entire Bible is nothing but a bunch of fables to you why would you believe any verse?  If Jesus is nothing more than a dead Jew who was crucified on a cross 2000 years ago and has no effect on your eternal destiny why argue about whether hell is eternal punishment or not?  We will all find out soon enough who is right and who is wrong.
 
biscuit1953 said:
Since the entire Bible is nothing but a bunch of fables to you why would you believe any verse?  If Jesus is nothing more than a dead Jew who was crucified on a cross 2000 years ago and has no effect on your eternal destiny why argue about whether hell is eternal punishment or not?  We will all find out soon enough who is right and who is wrong.

We do not have to wait.  We can know right now which doctrine is correct: eternal torment or simply annihilation.

Jude 11, says "Woe unto them!...they have...perished in the gainsaying of Core."  He is referring to Korah of Numbers 16.  What happened to the Korah group? They were annihilated, along with their houses and goods, as we have already seen.  Jude had said previously, in verse 7, that Sodom and Gomorrah were set up as an example, also, "suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."

What happened to Sodom and Gomorrha?  What is the vengeance of eternal fire?  Luke says, "the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed [same Greek word used by Jesus] them all. Sodom and Gomorrha were obviously annihilated, so Jesus obviously meant annihilation when he used the word ?destroyed.?

Annihilation is what the Bible teaches, not eternal torment, which you believe.

You say I don't believe the Bible.  Why don't you believe the Bible?  It is apparent that you don't.
 
Route_70 said:
biscuit1953 said:
Since the entire Bible is nothing but a bunch of fables to you why would you believe any verse?  If Jesus is nothing more than a dead Jew who was crucified on a cross 2000 years ago and has no effect on your eternal destiny why argue about whether hell is eternal punishment or not?  We will all find out soon enough who is right and who is wrong.

We do not have to wait.  We can know right now which doctrine is correct: eternal torment or simply annihilation.

Jude 11, says "Woe unto them!...they have...perished in the gainsaying of Core."  He is referring to Korah of Numbers 16.  What happened to the Korah group? They were annihilated, along with their houses and goods, as we have already seen.  Jude had said previously, in verse 7, that Sodom and Gomorrah were set up as an example, also, "suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."

What happened to Sodom and Gomorrha?  What is the vengeance of eternal fire?  Luke says, "the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed [same Greek word used by Jesus] them all. Sodom and Gomorrha were obviously annihilated, so Jesus obviously meant annihilation when he used the word ?destroyed.?

Annihilation is what the Bible teaches, not eternal torment, which you believe.

You say I don't believe the Bible.  Why don't you believe the Bible?  It is apparent that you don't.

It seems to me this should go under the Formal Debate section.

I would think the ad hominem would be discouraged there.


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Jo said:
It seems to me this should go under the Formal Debate section.

I would think the ad hominem would be discouraged there.

Why?  Jesus was fond of employing the ad hominem:

"O generation of vipers ... " Matthew 12:34
 
Route_70 said:
To reiterate, as stated in th OP:  "The doctrine of eternal torment in hell or a lake of fire is pure myth. This doctrine is nowhere to be found in the Bible."

Prove me wrong.
There are those who accept that hell is a place of punishment, but believe that the punishment is to be annihilated?to cease conscious existence. They can?t conceive that the punishment of the wicked will be conscious and eternal. If they are correct, then a man like Adolph Hitler, who was responsible for the deaths of millions, is being "punished" merely with eternal sleep. His fate is simply to return to the non-existent state he was in before he was born, where he doesn?t even know that he is being punished.

The Bible refers to the fate of the unsaved with such fearful words as the following:

"Shame and everlasting contempt" (Daniel 12:2)
"Everlasting punishment" (Mathew 25:46)
"Weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 24:51)
"Fire unquenchable" (Luke 3:17)
"Indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish" (Romans 2:8,9)
"Everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord" (2 Thessalonians 1:9)
"Eternal fire...the blackness of darkness for ever" (Jude 7,13)

Revelation 14:10,11 tells us the final, eternal destiny of the sinner: "He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone...the smoke of their torment ascended up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day or night."
The Evidence Bible

I won't post anything else on this thread.  You have a free will and can choose to believe what you will.
 
Smellin Coffee said:
Route_70 said:
HELL IS A PLACE OF ANNIHILATION

The ones cast into the pit [sheol or hades] in Numbers 16 were consumed. So hades is a place where one is consumed (annihilated). We know that the word consumed used in numbers 16 means annihilation by seeing its usage elsewhere in scripture. Exodus 3:2,3: "And the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the bush; and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed. And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt."

The implication from the previous passage is that Moses was surprised that this bush was on fire, yet it was not annihilated. The word consumed that appears in Exodus 3, is the same exact Hebrew word as the one that appears in Numbers 16. So the word implies annihilation. Biblical hell is a place of annihilation.

This is pretty much how I understand and believe it also.

I actually agree with this position as well.  Eternal torture in Hell would require God to give someone eternal life for the purpose of punishment instead of a "2nd death." 
 
Smellin Coffee said:
Gringo said:
Route_70 said:
The doctrine of eternal torment in hell or a lake of fire is pure myth. This doctrine is nowhere to be found in the Bible.

The word "hell" appears 53 times in both Old and New Testaments.

Every Old Testament mention of the word hell is always a translation of the word ?sheol.? However, sheol is not always translated in the Old Testament as hell. Sometimes it is translated as grave (Genesis 37:35); sometimes as pit (Numbers 16:33)

Ten times in the New Testament the word hell is translated from the Greek word ?hades.? Eleven times it is translated from the Greek word ?gehenna.? Once it is translated from the Greek word ?tartaroo.? And there is at least one occasion in the New Testament where the word hades is translated as ?grave.?



I thought that the reason Jesus was sent to die on the cross was to provide an escape from Hell.

If there is no hell, then why did Jesus come and die?

1. Emanuel - God with us. He partners with those being victimized with injustices. 2. Public execution so a public resurrection could verify Jesus was who he said he was.3. To demonstrate and model nonviolent resistance. 4. To model forgiveness in the worst of circumstances, even to one's own murder. 5. To demonstrate the evils/violence of mankind. 6. To show that doing evil to others is not in accordance to God?s will.

So his death wasn't for redemptive purposes to fulfill the justice of a raging lunatic of a God but rather to show how to love and forgive even the worst of our enemies.

And.....we are back to disagreeing.  Well, it was fun while it lasted :)
 
Route_70 said:
logos1560 said:
Since the flame of the fire in hell tormented, does that not suggest that this everlasting fire would result in eternal torment?

Suggest?  The passage specifically says "everlasting fire."  But Jesus  said that body and soul are destroyed in hell (Matthew 10:28).

logos1560 said:
Revelation 20:14-15
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.  This is the second death.
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and the murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone; which is the second death.

One again, nothing here about "eternal torment."  Anyone alive who has ever seen a bondfire knows what a fire does to whatever it burns:  it consumes it entirely.

Agreed. And "gehenna" was the name of a valley in that time where refuse was taken to be burned, consumed and annihilated. That is how the listener to Jesus would have understood it, IMHO.

Route_70 said:
Regarding Luke 16 and the story of Lazarus and the rich man:  that can hardly be expected to be believed as real:  how hot must the fire be; in how much torment must the rich man be if he says that a single drop of water would assuage his torment?

More than likely a parable, not a reality despite the use of a name within the parable.
 
biscuit1953 said:
Revelation 14:10,11 tells us the final, eternal destiny of the sinner: "He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone...the smoke of their torment ascended up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day or night."
The Evidence Bible

Here is a case where you have let you preconceived beliefs blind your eyes and interfere with your understanding.  Revelation 14 does not say what you said it says.

READ CAREFULLY AND HONESTLY!!!

Verse 10:  " The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: "

Verse 11:  "And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night,"

And the rest of the verse says, " who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."

Do you know anyone ho has received the mark of the beast?  Then that verse applies to him/her; and the Bible does not include ayone else!
 
Route and Smellin'


In a NUTSHELL, are you saying that the Bible teaches:

That while the physical body does die, at physical death, the soul doesn't and needs to be taken to a place where it is exterminated once and for all but not made to suffer eternally?

Gringo

 
Gringo said:
Route and Smellin'


In a NUTSHELL, are you saying that the Bible teaches:

That while the physical body does die, at physical death, the soul doesn't and needs to be taken to a place where it is exterminated once and for all but not made to suffer eternally?

Gringo

Personally, I believe that there is no such thing as a "soul" or "spirit."  I believe the mind (the consciousness) is a product of the body, the interactions of billions of neurons in the brain, dictated by the effect and disposition of electrons.  When the body dies the mind dies also, and that is all there is.  Whatever the Bible teaches outside of that is bogus -- pure fantasy -- pure myth.

That is what I believe personally.

What the Bible teaches is ambiguous and not at all conistent.  That is what you would expect from different men, writing over different eras of time.

However, Jesus did say in Matthew 10:28 to "fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

According to Matthew, that is what Jesus said; and according to that, whatever happens to the body in hell, the same thing happens to the soul.

But, as I said, that is just a myth.  There is no soul.
 
Gringo said:
Route and Smellin'


In a NUTSHELL, are you saying that the Bible teaches:

That while the physical body does die, at physical death, the soul doesn't and needs to be taken to a place where it is exterminated once and for all but not made to suffer eternally?

Gringo

Based on the teachings of Jesus, this is how I perceive it. But I do believe there is still a judgement for all where Jesus separates the sheep from the goats, those who cared for the marginalized and those who didn't. But thereafter, I believe it is eternal life or non-existence.
 
Route_70 said:
biscuit1953 said:
1.  Death and Hell are different (Rev 20:13).

2.  Body and Soul are different (1 Kings 17:20-22)

3.  Body goes to the grave (Acts 2:31)

4.  The soul goes to hell (Luke 16:23)

What part of a man goes to hell? "It is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell (Matthew 5:29); "...fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell" (Matthew 10:28).

According to the Bible, both soul and body go to the same place, together.
It's a matter of timing.... eventually, they'll be reunited in the Lake of Fire.

Sent from my H1611 using Tapatalk

 
Route_70 said:
The doctrine of eternal torment in hell or a lake of fire is pure myth. This doctrine is nowhere to be found in the Bible.

The word "hell" appears 53 times in both Old and New Testaments.

Every Old Testament mention of the word hell is always a translation of the word ?sheol.? However, sheol is not always translated in the Old Testament as hell. Sometimes it is translated as grave (Genesis 37:35); sometimes as pit (Numbers 16:33)

Ten times in the New Testament the word hell is translated from the Greek word ?hades.? Eleven times it is translated from the Greek word ?gehenna.? Once it is translated from the Greek word ?tartaroo.? And there is at least one occasion in the New Testament where the word hades is translated as ?grave.?


I think you are correct about the Bible and its teaching.

But one doesn't need the Bible to know that there is not a physical place that one goes to "under the earth"  where they will physically writhe in pain in a non physical body.

While anything is possible, I suppose, it certainly is not probable that such a vulgar place exists.

But I do know this,

if there were to be such a vile place where billions of souls all across the world that did not grow up in a Christian area and know about Jesus, will writhe in eternal pain, those people here on this forum that mock "soul winners", and believe in such a place are the most despicable people on the face of the earth.

And those that believe it isn't necessary to witness because God has elected certain ones and they will be saved anyway, believe in an absolutely evil god and should join ISIS.
 
Gringo said:

And those that believe it isn't necessary to witness because God has elected certain ones and they will be saved anyway, believe in an absolutely evil god and should join ISIS.


That explains why some of them are so despicable in their personal decorum.
 
I wonder if any of them have been chosen for this:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/calvinismthegroupthatchoosesyou/
 
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