Do you believe in irresistible grace?

The Rogue Tomato

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Someone recently challenged the "I" in TULIP.  I confess I had to look up what it stood for. 

Personally, I think it is a poorly chosen phrase. although it might have had a different meaning to people when the phrase was coined. 

I would say instead that everyone resists grace.  The Bible says there is no one who seeks God, no, not one.  Therefore, even though his light shines upon everyone, no one responds to the light alone. 

So, if I were to replace the term with something else, I would choose a phrase that means that when God brings you to life from the dead (spiritually), it's not something you can or will resist.  That change is entirely of God, and it gives you a heart to seek him.  The Bible also says that all the Father gives Jesus SHALL come to him.  There's no "if" in there.  So when he brings you to life from spiritual death, you SHALL come to him. 

What do you think? 

 
If God wants you to chase after Him, all He has to do is reveal enough of Himself to you. He's so glorious that you would have little choice but to want to have more of Him. This is how I see irresistible grace.
 
Ye do always resist...

Anishinabe

 
admin said:
Nice try...

Uncircumcised hearts of the Sanhedrin always resist. In other words, these were unregenerates.
Yes. These were. 

Anishinabe

 
I have had irresistible cookies.  Does that count?
 
prophet said:
Ye do always resist...

Anishinabe


Yes.  Unregenerate people resist. 

Irresistable grace doesn't mean that grace is not resisted, but that grace breaks through resistance.

"Ye do always resist..." helps prove total depravity.  Saving grace overpowers resistance, and is, hence, irresistable.
 
Reformed Guy said:
prophet said:
Ye do always resist...

Anishinabe


Yes.  Unregenerate people resist. 

Irresistable grace doesn't mean that grace is not resisted, but that grace breaks through resistance.

"Ye do always resist..." helps prove total depravity.  Saving grace overpowers resistance, and is, hence, irresistable.

Yup.  That's basically what I was saying.  When God makes you alive from your spiritually dead state, you won't say, "No, I'll just stay dead, thank you very much."
 
No one has ever resisted all the way to Hell?  If they have, then we either have resistable grace, or an unjust Creator.
I speak as a fool, for God is just.

No one, being unregenerated, has ever tried to live upright?  Tell the JW's that, or the RCC, for that matter.  Saul of Tarsus was allowed by the Spirit to say that he kept the law perfectly, as an unsaved man. 
I don't believe in total depravity, I believe that the Law of God is written on our hearts, we have a conscience, and we make laws accordingly...Romans 2.
I believe that grace is freely offered to all, and the majority of people turn it down.
Broad is the way, that leads to destruction, and many there be which go thereby.

Anishinaabe

 
prophet said:
No one has ever resisted all the way to Hell?  If they have, then we either have resistable grace, or an unjust Creator.

A God who let a sinner to go to hell is a just creator, not an unjust one. They deserve punishment. The reason you or I don't get the same, is mercy, not justice.

The real conundrum is not whether God is just for allowing some people to go to hell. It's whether God is unjust for letting me off the hook.
 
Ransom said:
prophet said:
No one has ever resisted all the way to Hell?  If they have, then we either have resistable grace, or an unjust Creator.

A God who let a sinner to go to hell is a just creator, not an unjust one. They deserve punishment. The reason you or I don't get the same, is mercy, not justice.

The real conundrum is not whether God is just for allowing some people to go to hell. It's whether God is unjust for letting me off the hook.

I forget where I read it, but someone said he asked a class if Job deserved the troubles he received.  Most if not all of the students said, "no", in the sense that he deserved better than to be tortured on a bet with satan. 

The teacher corrected them and said, "No, he deserved much worse."  Anything good we receive is by the mercy and grace of God. 

 
"Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always RESIST the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye."


Before I jump in I want some definition clarified. When I'm referring the the "I", I'm referring to the convicting power of the Holy Spirit...........that is, conviction of the Holy Spirit. My belief is No conviction, no conversion. If you're referring to something else then............



 
Ransom said:
prophet said:
No one has ever resisted all the way to Hell?  If they have, then we either have resistable grace, or an unjust Creator.

A God who let a sinner to go to hell is a just creator, not an unjust one. They deserve punishment. The reason you or I don't get the same, is mercy, not justice.

The real conundrum is not whether God is just for allowing some people to go to hell. It's whether God is unjust for letting me off the hook.
amen, amen...now back to the subject.

Anishinaabe

 
Ransom said:
prophet said:
No one has ever resisted all the way to Hell?  If they have, then we either have resistable grace, or an unjust Creator.

A God who let a sinner to go to hell is a just creator, not an unjust one. They deserve punishment. The reason you or I don't get the same, is mercy, not justice.

The real conundrum is not whether God is just for allowing some people to go to hell. It's whether God is unjust for letting me off the hook.

I disagree. He is no longer just. True, the sinner deserves punishment, saved or unsaved deserve punishment.

Being just means "equitable in the distribution of justice". All the points of TULIP theology including the I (which is on topic) make God unjust, or in other words, He does not distribute to all men equitably. He chooses to distribute to some men in one fashion, and to others in another fashion, and that arbitrarily. It is oversimplistic to say the He does so because He can, and who is mortal man to question sovereign God?

I do not question the sovereignty of God, but He limits Himself to what He has written in His Word.

The verse quoted (Acts 7:51) can be looked at as "unregenerate men, of course they resisted", but that interpretation then begs the question, why did Stephen reprove them for it, they were incapable of doing anything else, in fact, a Calvinistic view of this would presuppose that Stephen was wrong for arguing with dead unregenerate men, as though he were preaching to corpses in a morgue. What point would there have been in that? How foolish of Stephen to get upset at dead men for being dead.

The same thought for Luke 13:34. Why was the Lord lamenting the fact that Jerusalem allow Himto gather them together. To the Calvinist, the answer to WHY He could not gather them together is apparent. They were unregenerate. They had no option but to resist. That's not my question. My question is why was omniscience itself upset? He created them that way, why grieve over it? The only thing that would change this would be regeneration, and these weren't chosen. Surely He knew that. Why the grief, or dismay or surprise or whatever you want to call His emotion.

Irresistible Grace is not true because it does not conform to God as He is revealed in the Scriptures.
 
ItinerantPreacher said:
Being just means "equitable in the distribution of justice".

I dispute your definition (that isn't the only definition of the word "just," and you haven't explained why it's the right one, nor do I know which dictionary you got it from). However, let's assume it for the sake of argument.

All the points of TULIP theology including the I (which is on topic) make God unjust, or in other words, He does not distribute to all men equitably. He chooses to distribute to some men in one fashion, and to others in another fashion, and that arbitrarily.

Who said it was arbitrarily? I reject that assertion, and will eliminate it: God "chooses to distribute to some men in one fashion, and to others in another fashion." That, at least, is true.

if God's justice must be equitable, then your definition of justice leaves you with a dilemma. You are stating that God may not extend condemnation to some men, and clemency to others. On the one hand, if God must be equitably just, he must condemn all, and we are left without hope. On the other hand, if God must be equitably merciful, then he must save all, and justice is perverted.

You deny God the sovereign freedom that is his by virtue of his lordship over creation. He has declared, "I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy" (Exod. 33:19). Effectively you are saying, "No, God, that's not true, you have to treat everyone equally." You've tied his hands.

It is oversimplistic to say the He does so because He can, and who is mortal man to question sovereign God?

Then Paul was oversimplistic, because that was exactly his God-breathed answer (Rom. 9:19-20).

The verse quoted (Acts 7:51) can be looked at as "unregenerate men, of course they resisted", but that interpretation then begs the question, why did Stephen reprove them for it, they were incapable of doing anything else, in fact, a Calvinistic view of this would presuppose that Stephen was wrong for arguing with dead unregenerate men, as though he were preaching to corpses in a morgue.

No, in a Calvinistic view - since we want to be discussing the truth here, rather than fiction - Stephen can reprove them because they are moral human beings who were responsible for their sins.

What point would there have been in that?

The question is moot since it isn't based on reality.

How foolish of Stephen to get upset at dead men for being dead.

Death is but one metaphor the Scripture uses to show the relationship between unregenerate men and God. No one is claiming that spiritual death renders a person incapable of moral responsibility for his actions. Other metaphors include blindness, imprisonment, slavery, and so forth, where that objection simply wouldn't apply. You end up with straw men like yours when you selectively ignore what your opponents are actually saying.

The same thought for Luke 13:34. Why was the Lord lamenting the fact that Jerusalem allow Himto gather them together.

He wasn't. You misquoted the verse: "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing!"

In other words, his anger is directed at those in power who have killed God's messengers, oppressing the people by preventing them from hearing the word of God.

To the Calvinist, the answer to WHY He could not gather them together is apparent.

To this Calvinist, your answer is again moot since it assumes false premises.
 
It is true that my definition is not the only definition of just. I used Websters 1828 BTW, I commonly do.

JUST, a. L. justus. The primary sense is probably straight or close, from the sense of setting, erecting, or extending.

1. Regular; orderly; due; suitable.

When all

The war shall stand ranged in its just array.

2. Exactly proportioned; proper.

Pleaseth your lordship

To meet his grace,just distance 'tween our armies?

3. Full; complete to the common standard.

He was a comely personage, a little above just stature.

4. Full; true; a sense allied to the preceding, or the same.

--So that once the skirmish was like to have come to a just battle.

5. In a moral sense, upright; honest; having principles of rectitude; or conforming exactly to the laws, and to principles of rectitude in social conduct; equitable in the distribution of justice; as a just judge.

6. In an evangelical sense, righteous; religious; influenced by a regard to the laws of God; or living in exact conformity to the divine will.

There is not a just man on earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not. Eccles.7.

7. Conformed to rules of justice; doing equal justice.

Just balances, just weights, a just ephah and a just him shall ye have. Lev.19.

8. Conformed to truth; exact; proper; accurate; as just thoughts; just expressions; just images or representations; a just description; a just inference.

9. True; founded in truth and fact; as a just charge or accusation.

10. Innocent; blameless; without guilt.

How should man be just with God? Job.9.

11. Equitable; due; merited; as a just recompense or reward.

--Whose damnation is just. Rom.3.

12. True to promises; faithful; as just to one's word or engagements.

13. Impartial; allowing what is due; giving fair representation of character, merit or demerit.

Definitions 1-4 do not deal with justice
Definition 5-6 deal with moral rightness, not justice.
Definition 8-9 &12 deal with truth
Definition 7, 11 & 13 deal with principles of dispensing justice.

To me God's choices in whom He saves define arbitrarily since the depravity of man places us all on an equal plane, without merit. The very statement "it pleased God to choose" (or statements like that)  are arbitrary.

I am not denying God His Sovereign Lordship, I am defining His character as revealed in the Scriptures. For instance, He is not obligated always tell the truth, He is Sovereign, He can do as He pleases, but He has revealed to us that He cannot lie in Titus 1:2

As to Him choosing whom He would or would not be gracious or show mercy or who are we to reply why hast thou made me thus, your answer is incomplete in that you are not using the rest of scripture to temper the interpretation. He can be gracious to whom he wants to, and He then goes on to say that He wants to be gracious and show mercy to those who accept His Son as Saviour, and then after that those who follow Him. He COULD pick anybody, but He doesn't.

I did misquote the verse, my keyboard is giving me grief. I was attempting to say "why was the Lord lamenting the fact that Jerusalem wouldn't allow Him to gather them together" Then I went on to call attention to the fact that He was lamenting over something that He had chosen.
 
ItinerantPreacher said:
It is true that my definition is not the only definition of just. I used Websters 1828 BTW, I commonly do.

Well, good. You realize Noah Webster was a Calvinist, right?

Pedantry snipped. None of that defined "justice" in a way that obliges God to treat all men the same.

To me God's choices in whom He saves define arbitrarily since the depravity of man places us all on an equal plane, without merit.

Do you even know what the word "arbitrary" means?

The very statement "it pleased God to choose" (or statements like that)  are arbitrary.

No, I guess you don't.

As to Him choosing whom He would or would not be gracious or show mercy or who are we to reply why hast thou made me thus, your answer is incomplete in that you are not using the rest of scripture to temper the interpretation. He can be gracious to whom he wants to, and He then goes on to say that He wants to be gracious and show mercy to those who accept His Son as Saviour, and then after that those who follow Him.

Nothing in Scripture says that God "wants to be gracious and show mercy to those who accept His Son as Saviour."

He COULD pick anybody, but He doesn't.

You are saying that God has no say in whom he adopts into his family. That is foolish.

I did misquote the verse, my keyboard is giving me grief. I was attempting to say "why was the Lord lamenting the fact that Jerusalem wouldn't allow Him to gather them together"

Because the evil done by the leaders was an act of will. Pretty simple, huh?
 
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