Does Total Depravity Equate to Total Inability?

Baptist Renegade

Baptist Renegade

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Total inabilty to what extent?

And does total inability negate human responsibility?

Show your work!
 
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Sorry...not doing your homework for you! LOL
 
Total unwillingness (no one seeks Ro 3)
Total inability (no one can Jn 6.44 slaves cannot Ro 6)
 
FSSL said:
Total unwillingness (no one seeks Ro 3)
Total inability (no one can Jn 6.44 slaves cannot Ro 6)
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Mankind has the total inability to keep God's law and to make himself blameless before God. I think everyone here would agree with this. I would furthermore state that God has revealed this to EVERY MAN (without exception) through the invisible things which are clearly seen so that they are without excuse (Rom 1:20).

God has also called all men everywhere (without exception) to REPENT (Acts 17:30)! I believe the scriptures are clear that ALL MEN (without exception) are responsible to REPENT AND BELIEVE THE GOSPEL. Some (most) Calvinists believe that man CANNOT do so unless they, through efficacious grace, are GRANTED REPENTANCE AND FAITH IN ORDER TO BELIEVE. "Free Willies" take exception to this saying that man is able to choose or reject according to their own free will.

MY POSITION is that unregenerate mankind will always exercise his corrupted "Free Will" to REJECT GOD and repudiate the invisible things which are clearly seen. He will choose rather to remain in darkness and will desperately seek out everything and anything else other than the knowledge of the truth that they might be saved (Jer 17:9; 2 Th 2:10). Any other outcome besides rejection WILL NOT HAPPEN unless the Father intervenes and draws the sinner to Christ (Jn 6:44). Jesus himself makes the case for INABILITY in this passage. I would really like to say "Will Not" but Jesus clearly says "CAN NOT" and this is consistent in every English translation I have seen. Perhaps some of you more knowledgeable in Greek can add some light here?

I believe that my Arminian friends would look at John 6:44 and say this is "Prevenient Grace" and I think I could go along with this seeing that "Drawing" does not necessarily equate to actual "Regeneration" although all who are regenerated are supernaturally "Drawn" (elected) by the Father. I am convinced, however, that if Prevenient grace is truly a "thing," that not all men are recipients of prevenient grace! Not all men have opportunity to hear and understand the gospel thus prevenient (enabling) grace would be pointless! Perhaps I am missing something? Perhaps one of you Arminians could correct any misunderstanding I may have regarding prevenient grace?

I therefore have to come to the conclusion that the only time a man will come to God in repentance and faith is when God draws and enables him to do so. Efficacious grace is regeneration and is ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY for salvation. This is the "Irresistible Grace" that Calvinists speak of and all other "grace" is not only resistible but is ALWAYS RESISTED and pushed back upon by unregenerate mankind.
 
Baptist Renegade said:
Mankind has the total inability to keep God's law and to make himself blameless before God. I think everyone here would agree with this. I would furthermore state that God has revealed this to EVERY MAN (without exception) through the invisible things which are clearly seen so that they are without excuse (Rom 1:20).

God has also called all men everywhere (without exception) to REPENT (Acts 17:30)! I believe the scriptures are clear that ALL MEN (without exception) are responsible to REPENT AND BELIEVE THE GOSPEL. Some (most) Calvinists believe that man CANNOT do so unless they, through efficacious grace, are GRANTED REPENTANCE AND FAITH IN ORDER TO BELIEVE. "Free Willies" take exception to this saying that man is able to choose or reject according to their own free will.

MY POSITION is that unregenerate mankind will always exercise his corrupted "Free Will" to REJECT GOD and repudiate the invisible things which are clearly seen. He will choose rather to remain in darkness and will desperately seek out everything and anything else other than the knowledge of the truth that they might be saved (Jer 17:9; 2 Th 2:10). Any other outcome besides rejection WILL NOT HAPPEN unless the Father intervenes and draws the sinner to Christ (Jn 6:44). Jesus himself makes the case for INABILITY in this passage. I would really like to say "Will Not" but Jesus clearly says "CAN NOT" and this is consistent in every English translation I have seen. Perhaps some of you more knowledgeable in Greek can add some light here?

I believe that my Arminian friends would look at John 6:44 and say this is "Prevenient Grace" and I think I could go along with this seeing that "Drawing" does not necessarily equate to actual "Regeneration" although all who are regenerated are supernaturally "Drawn" (elected) by the Father. I am convinced, however, that if Prevenient grace is truly a "thing," that not all men are recipients of prevenient grace! Not all men have opportunity to hear and understand the gospel thus prevenient (enabling) grace would be pointless! Perhaps I am missing something? Perhaps one of you Arminians could correct any misunderstanding I may have regarding prevenient grace?

I therefore have to come to the conclusion that the only time a man will come to God in repentance and faith is when God draws and enables him to do so. Efficacious grace is regeneration and is ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY for salvation. This is the "Irresistible Grace" that Calvinists speak of and all other "grace" is not only resistible but is ALWAYS RESISTED and pushed back upon by unregenerate mankind.
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Good explanation, my friend.
 
I don't care to parse out whether I was drawn by "prevenient", "irresistible" or whatever other $10 high sounding name you want to give grace. Like the blind beggar in John 9:25 said, "One thing I do know. I was blind but now I see!”
 
Ransom said:
Unwilling to come to God because he is his enemy (Romans 8:7), and therefore unable to come to God without divine intervention (John 6:44),
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The preaching of the word is the divine intervention. It shed's light on the sin factor and illuminates...it draws....as in the Father drawing. This isn't the same as the Father drawing (making the decision) for salvation. As with bugs...some are drawn to the light, and others are drawn to it.
 
AverageJoe said:
The preaching of the word is the divine intervention. It shed's light on the sin factor and illuminates...it draws....as in the Father drawing. This isn't the same as the Father drawing (making the decision) for salvation. As with bugs...some are drawn to the light, and others are drawn to it.
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Unless the Father is "Drawing," the preaching of the word is foolishness to them that perish (1 Cor 1:18). It is through the POWER OF GOD that men respond with repentance and faith and it is ONLY GOD who gives the increase through his efficacious saving grace! Regardless of the outcome, we are to be faithful to PREACH THE WORD both in season when the "Power of God" is at work and out of season when it is regarded as merely foolishness (2 Tim 4:2).

Captain Obvious says you're welome! :ROFLMAO:
 
Baptist Renegade said:
Unless the Father is "Drawing," the preaching of the word is foolishness to them that perish (1 Cor 1:18). It is through the POWER OF GOD that men respond with repentance and faith and it is ONLY GOD who gives the increase through his efficacious saving grace! Regardless of the outcome, we are to be faithful to PREACH THE WORD both in season when the "Power of God" is at work and out of season when it is regarded as merely foolishness (2 Tim 4:2).

Captain Obvious says you're welome! :ROFLMAO:
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You're so obviously obvious, and that's obviously how you like it! LOL
 
AverageJoe said:
The preaching of the word is the divine intervention. It shed's light on the sin factor and illuminates...it draws....as in the Father drawing.
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If that were the case, just preaching the right sermon would infallibly result in mass conversions. But unless the Holy Spirit takes an enemy of God and regenerates their heart so they can respond in faith, the preacher is preaching to a corpse.

The power of the Word is necessary. It is not sufficient.
 
Ransom said:
If that were the case, just preaching the right sermon would infallibly result in mass conversions. But unless the Holy Spirit takes an enemy of God and regenerates their heart so they can respond in faith, the preacher is preaching to a corpse.

The power of the Word is necessary. It is not sufficient.
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Not necessarily....Some will still run from the light while others will seek it, and accept it. You like to read into things, Scott. It doesn't equate with "mass" anything.
 
AverageJoe said:
Not necessarily....Some will still run from the light while others will seek it, and accept it. You like to read into things, Scott. It doesn't equate with "mass" anything.
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But why do some run from it? "The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned" (1 Cor. 2:14). They do not have the Holy Spirit to bring about faith and repentance, Whereas, on the other hand, "we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God" (1 Cor. 2:12).

On the Sabbath day we went outside the gate to the riverside, where we supposed there was a place of prayer, and we sat down and spoke to the women who had come together. One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul. (Acts 16:13-14)​

The ability to understand the word of God and receive it willingly is itself a gift from the Holy Spirit. Without the Spirit, unregenerate unbelievers may hear the message and understand its meaning, but have no interest in obeying.
 
Ransom said:
But why do some run from it? "The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned" (1 Cor. 2:14). They do not have the Holy Spirit to bring about faith and repentance, Whereas, on the other hand, "we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God" (1 Cor. 2:12).

On the Sabbath day we went outside the gate to the riverside, where we supposed there was a place of prayer, and we sat down and spoke to the women who had come together. One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul. (Acts 16:13-14)​

The ability to understand the word of God and receive it willingly is itself a gift from the Holy Spirit. Without the Spirit, unregenerate unbelievers may hear the message and understand its meaning, but have no interest in obeying.
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That's your take on the scripture, Scott. Please, don't try and state it as fact...it's beneath you.
 
AverageJoe said:
That's your take on the scripture, Scott. Please, don't try and state it as fact...it's beneath you.
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"That" s just your interpretation"? That's not a refutation, Joe, it's a thought-terminating cliché. Show me a better interpretation, then.
 
I like this guy's answer:

Matthew 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

Matthew 12:34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.

Looks like: capable of action, incapable of the corresponding thought process.
 
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