"Greg Neal, Tom Neal, Bob Gray, Sr., Allen Domelle Are WRONG!"

Good video. If you have 15 minutes to spare, then watch this. Pastor Shiflett describes a "mass exodus" from the IFB movement. From what I can observe in my state, this is no exaggeration - it's happening. I very reluctantly left IFB - didn't want to, but I left, partly because of a lifetime excommunication from a church with an abusive pastor. The basis was that if an IFB pastor says one thing and the excommunicated lay person says another, then the lay person must be lying because IFB preachers never lie. However, in the Giovanelli case, he issued a Clintonesque "I did not have sex with that woman" denial last year, but then at the sentencing, his lawyer admitted that he had "consensual sex" with that woman. So Giovanelli lied, showing that IFB preachers do indeed sometimes lie, but lay people like me get the left boot of disfellowship because of their lies, and then everyone scratches their head and wonders why is the movement declining.
 
Did you get the "Don't touch God's anointed!" blather, too?
 
Good video. If you have 15 minutes to spare, then watch this. Pastor Shiflett describes a "mass exodus" from the IFB movement. From what I can observe in my state, this is no exaggeration - it's happening. I very reluctantly left IFB - didn't want to, but I left, partly because of a lifetime excommunication from a church with an abusive pastor. The basis was that if an IFB pastor says one thing and the excommunicated lay person says another, then the lay person must be lying because IFB preachers never lie. However, in the Giovanelli case, he issued a Clintonesque "I did not have sex with that woman" denial last year, but then at the sentencing, his lawyer admitted that he had "consensual sex" with that woman. So Giovanelli lied, showing that IFB preachers do indeed sometimes lie, but lay people like me get the left boot of disfellowship because of their lies, and then everyone scratches their head and wonders why is the movement declining.

I'll take a look at the video.

I have had disappointments with IFB churches that held up the pastor as God (his every word and thought was law, opposing the pastor's will was worse than disobeying God; when we left, we were shunned and lied about). Anyway, I still think the being independent and fundamental and Baptist are right; I'm just not a big fan of the IFB "movement".

We've been in a different IFB church for a couple of years now, and it is much better balanced.
 
Did you get the "Don't touch God's anointed!" blather, too?

We did -- all the time, including horror stories of people criticizing God the pastor, and the bad things that happened to them afterwards.
 
Yeah, I was warned not to touch the Lord's anointed. I'm not sure why - I have never physically attacked any IFB clergyman, nor threatened to do so. I'm easy to get along with.
 
Yeah, I was warned not to touch the Lord's anointed. I'm not sure why - I have never physically attacked any IFB clergyman, nor threatened to do so. I'm easy to get along with.

Indeed, they apply "touching" to mean criticism - no one should be above criticism... but, to be honest, none of us like to be criticized.
 
Good video.

I watched it; I agree that it's pretty good.

I think there are issues that would be worth discussing (later in the text below).

But let's get some easy ones out of the way; I'm amazed (but not really surprised) that neither Tom Neal for Bob Gray, Sr have admitted that they were wrong. Tom Neal's blog attacking Pastor Stacey Shiflett and the accuser and defending a guilty man are still out there. The truth is that Tom Neal was wrong, and Cameron was guilty; he fooled Tom Neal, and those that supported him.

Tom Neal and Bob Gray, Sr are birds of a feather (it is my understanding that Bob Gray, Sr is now based out of Greg Neal's church -- formerly Tom Neal's church). Both of these men worship Jack Hyles: in Tom Neal's blog, "Jesus" is not mentioned, "Christ" is not to be found; "God" is mentioned four times (the phrase "man of God" is used, but I didn't count that). However, Jack Hyles is mentioned 10 times. This blog is not an isolated incident; if you read other posts, and also Bob Gray, Sr's blog, it's clear that they worship Jack Hyles. Part of what they learned was that the pastor should be blindly obeyed in all things, and that comes across in the "defense" of Cameron.

I would also mention that Tom Neal followed a similar pattern when his son Greg was caught in a sin; Greg is now pastoring the church.

I applaud those pastors and evangelists who will not preach with these men and refuse to go to their conferences. Last time I checked (and it was some time ago), Sheldon Smith of the Sword of the Lord still was supporting these men; I hope he has pulled away from them, but I don't know.

As for Jack Trieber, I do think he has his issues, but I don't attribute the same kind of guilt to him... and this is where the discussion can get interesting.

Let's imagine that you interview a man (Fred) for a position in your church; he agrees with your standards and claims to not have any scandal associated with him... you hire Fred, and then, from out of the blue, a man (George) calls up and says that he believes that Fred has done something immoral. What is the right thing to do? Fred should be presumed innocent, with all due respect to George -- possibly Fred should be watched closely. I think Jack Trieber has acted well in this thing -- but we can discuss it.

The above is the situation Jack Trieber was in -- once the case was filed (as I understand it), Jack Trieber dismissed Cameron (who promptly fled to Tom Neal's former church).

I haven't been 100% impressed with Pastor Shifflet; his videos seem to be a bit self-justifying and he seems to be pushing books a bit. However, I haven't been in his position, so it may be understandable.
 
I don't think Cameron's defenders are ever going to admit that they were wrong. Being an IFB preacher means never having to say you're sorry.

"Hyles worship" is no exaggeration - it's how many IFBs feel in my part of the world. In 1992 I was told that God was going to kill me for having dissed Jack Hyles.

With regard to Shelton Smith's involvement with Immanuel Baptist Church in Jacksonville, Florida, and the Neals, I was not able to find any reference in the Sword of the Lord to Smith visiting that church during October, 2018 or 2019. (October is when they have their annual Preacher's Delight conference). He was there in 2017 - the October 20, 2017 issue of the Sword of the Lord has this report on Smith's visit there: "On the first Sunday of October, I was in Jacksonville, Florida at the Immanuel Baptist Church. . . . Pastor Greg Neal is leading the church forward as they develop the 35-acre property for the use of their church and school. They are taking a solid stand, winning people to Christ, nurturing the church family and having a vision for their city. . . . Dr. Norris Belcher came to preach with me both nights. . . . We have scheduled to be back with them for a conference January 27-29 in 2019. These were good days at Immanuel Baptist Church. Brother Neal and his people are excitedly going about the work here. With the blessing of the Lord, they are seeing souls saved and a strong church is being built. . . . "

It appears that Smith's January 27-29, 2019 engagement at Immanuel was cancelled. In the December 28, 2018 SOTL he announced a meeting January 24-25, 2019 at Madison BC in Madison, AL and then the January 25, 2019 SOTL announces a meeting February 3-5, 2019 at Victory BC in Benton, AR - no mention of any meeting in between. The February 8, 2019 SOTL reports on his Madison meeting, while the February 22, 2019 SOTL reports on the Benton meeting - no mention of any Jacksonville meeting in between.

The evidence indicates that apparently Smith has quietly distanced himself from the Neals and Immanuel Baptist Church. I have not seen any mention of North Florida Baptist College in the SOTL.
 
With regard to Shelton Smith's involvement with Immanuel Baptist Church in Jacksonville, Florida, and the Neals, I was not able to find any reference in the Sword of the Lord to Smith visiting that church during October, 2018 or 2019. (October is when they have their annual Preacher's Delight conference). He was there in 2017 - the October 20, 2017 issue of the Sword of the Lord has this report on Smith's visit there: "On the first Sunday of October, I was in Jacksonville, Florida at the Immanuel Baptist Church. . . . Pastor Greg Neal is leading the church forward as they develop the 35-acre property for the use of their church and school. They are taking a solid stand, winning people to Christ, nurturing the church family and having a vision for their city. . . . Dr. Norris Belcher came to preach with me both nights. . . . We have scheduled to be back with them for a conference January 27-29 in 2019. These were good days at Immanuel Baptist Church. Brother Neal and his people are excitedly going about the work here. With the blessing of the Lord, they are seeing souls saved and a strong church is being built. . . . "

It appears that Smith's January 27-29, 2019 engagement at Immanuel was cancelled. In the December 28, 2018 SOTL he announced a meeting January 24-25, 2019 at Madison BC in Madison, AL and then the January 25, 2019 SOTL announces a meeting February 3-5, 2019 at Victory BC in Benton, AR - no mention of any meeting in between. The February 8, 2019 SOTL reports on his Madison meeting, while the February 22, 2019 SOTL reports on the Benton meeting - no mention of any Jacksonville meeting in between.

The evidence indicates that apparently Smith has quietly distanced himself from the Neals and Immanuel Baptist Church. I have not seen any mention of North Florida Baptist College in the SOTL.

Thanks for doing the research; I wrote Sheldon Smith after the Greg Neal videotaping scandal, and he was defending him. Also, Tom Neal or Greg Neal was on the SOTL board at the time.

I've only heard Sheldon Smith preach a few times, but he preached solid (if pretty basic) messages, so I'm encouraged that he is distancing himself from that crowd.
 
Either Shelton Smith has not been back to Immanuel BC in the last few years, or if he has, he is being uncharacteristically very quiet about it.

I heard Dr. Smith preach in 1996 at Shawnee BC in Louisville, Kentucky - I haven't heard him in person since then. Some years ago I wrote Dr. Smith to ask why SOTL sells Scofield Bibles, since the Scofield Notes are contrary to the King James Only policy of SOTL. He replied very graciously, and said something about how SOTL includes some sort of disclaimer with the material they sell, about how they do not necessarily agree with everything in every book they sell. Personally, I endorse neither King James Only nor the Scofield theology, and I am puzzled as to how some people can endorse both, when Scofield said his notes were based on the Westcott/Hort scholarship. But hey, that's just me.
 
Either Shelton Smith has not been back to Immanuel BC in the last few years, or if he has, he is being uncharacteristically very quiet about it.

I heard Dr. Smith preach in 1996 at Shawnee BC in Louisville, Kentucky - I haven't heard him in person since then. Some years ago I wrote Dr. Smith to ask why SOTL sells Scofield Bibles, since the Scofield Notes are contrary to the King James Only policy of SOTL. He replied very graciously, and said something about how SOTL includes some sort of disclaimer with the material they sell, about how they do not necessarily agree with everything in every book they sell. Personally, I endorse neither King James Only nor the Scofield theology, and I am puzzled as to how some people can endorse both, when Scofield said his notes were based on the Westcott/Hort scholarship. But hey, that's just me.

When he defended Greg Neal, I stopped my SOTL subscription and really haven't really had anything to do with the SOTL since then. But I have heard him preach at a few conferences, as I said, and he seemed to preach solid, although basic, messages.
 
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