Influence or Separate?

tmjbog

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You might have missed this, as it addresses the original use of the term "radical" in it's proper context in Christendom:

"KJV radical" is a silly term as almost all Protestants across all denominations used that version for 300 years, therefore using said term implies one believes almost all of Christendom was radical before Westcott and Hort who stated they did not believe Jesus was God in agreement with the JW's (which is why the NASB says Jesus was a "begotten God"), and stated that their "faith" and their Bible was "mere compromise" (quoted word for word), and that they thought evangelicals were "perverted", and did not believe the scriptures were inspired.

Just a few of their self-professed claims of many that accurately makes them self-professed radicals on numerous pillars and fundamentals of the faith who gave us the versions that barely 1 century later we can see the fruits of in the first world: apostasy and riots.

Why someone will defend versions that are barely 1 century old when Christendom has thousands of years behind it is beyond me. Especially considering the result of their ecumenical, 300+ variant-versions fruit everyone can see now.
So when KJV was less than 100 years old it was a bad version?
 

FSSL

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Why someone will defend versions that are barely 1 century old when Christendom has thousands of years behind it is beyond me. Especially considering the result of their ecumenical, 300+ variant-versions fruit everyone can see now.
It could be that the American English language has changed since 1611. I have yet to see UGC use the words "thee, thou" and the old sentence structures in his own posts.

So... in this instance, the Association took the appeasement route. They gave their church planters enough money so that they all had to work other jobs and the barely used Conference center got a new roof. When asked for a verbal vote, I was the only one who opposed. Separation time was evident.
 

UGC

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It could be that the American English language has changed since 1611.
And I would have been OK with the New Versions had they simply updated the language as was the original publicly stated objective.

Unfortunately it is well-documented that they lied here and added new underlying manuscripts that both Erasmus and the King James Translators rejected. Regardless of whether they were of the Alexandrian-type or not, Erasmus and the KJV translators saw it in wisdom to not include them. Are we to give Westcott and Hort more credibility than them?

Again, if all they did was update the language, bet I would probably be using a New Version myself.
In fact the KJV already had its language updated, which is why no one uses the 1611 anymore.
 

FSSL

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And I would have been fine with the New Versions had they simply updated the language as was the original publicly stated objective.

Unfortunately it is well-documented that they lied here and added new underlying manuscripts that both Erasmus and the King James Translators rejected. Regardless of whether they were of the Alexandrian-type or not, Erasmus and the KJV translators saw it in wisdom to not include them. Are we to give Westcott and Hort more credibility than them?

Again, if all they did was update the language, bet I would probably be using a New Version myself.
In fact the KJV already had its language updated, which is why no one uses the 1611 anymore.
Hast thou missed the point?

I wish, for once, you would actually push the thread forward.
 

UGC

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Hast thou missed the point?
You do realize that no one spoke in thee's and thou's in 1611.

"Thou" and "you" are both used in the KJV to provide a more accurate translation from the Greek,
For example, in Spanish there is "tu" (singular) and "vosotros" (personal plural).
Since English does not use these distinctions in every day language, the KJV translators made a brilliant decision here.

Any anyway, according to Flesch-Kincaid grade level readability analysis, the KJV is easier to read and understand than the New Versions.
 

UGC

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you would actually push the thread forward.
Go ahead. Just don't toss around wildly inaccurate labels like "KJV radicals" unless you have proper evidence to back it up.

Otherwise naturally, someone, somewhere is going to call it out, as most KJV readers are by no means radical.
 

FSSL

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Since you have, once again, not contributed to the forwarding of this thread... you are locked out of it.
 
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FSSL

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Pastors, church leaders... have you been in a situation where your state's association moved away from its original purposes and forced you into a situation where you had to either influence or separate?
 

sword

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Adrian Rogers, the somewhat younger contemporary of Criswell was also an influencer. I chose to stay in the SBC to make a difference. He attempted to influence and lead the SBC in a time when he felt it was moving to the left.

It would have been much easier to leave the SBC than to attempt to influence its direction.
 
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sword

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The well know Charles Stanley, of the First Baptist Church of Atlanta Georgia, has spent his career being an influencer within the SBC and to many non-SBC pastors nationwide.
 
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sword

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Paul Pressler and Paige Patterson, and Bill Powell were also conservative influencers within the Southern Baptist Convention.

It is often much easier to leave or compromise in the face of change rather than resist it.

"One who stands up for what he believes often stands alone".
 

sword

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I have often wondered if all the Catholic, Protestant and later Baptist Teachers and students had not left the public schools in the 70's, 80's and 90's to begain Christian schools, would the public schools have devolved as rapidly as they did. The darker the night the brighter the light but what if there is no light at all.

Would the positive influence of the Christian Teachers and students made a difference.
 

FSSL

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The point about the Christian school movement is good.

The new fundamentalists of the 1970-80s (perhaps even today) have difficulty with those who stay to influence rather than separate. The separatists call the influencers, “compromisers.”

I believe much of the terminology has not helped. It is difficult to leave an organization one has belonged to and invested in.

I recently changed churches because the leadership changed. In my younger days, I would have considered those who stayed behind to influence as compromisers.

Fundamentalists are, at their core, separatists. They view SBCrs who are trying to influence change as compromisers.
 

illinoisguy

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It may be possible to both influence and separate at the same time. There may be a right time to separate from a movement (or maybe be involuntarily booted out) but once that happens, one can still have influence within the movement, by such things as publications, podcasts, etc directed back into that movement. Such continuing influences may have more credibility if they come from a former insider in the movement, as opposed to someone who was never part of it. John R. Rice is an example of someone who separated from the SBC movement but continued to have influence within it. Likewise, Carl McIntire and J. Gresham Machen were unceremoniously kicked out of the mainline Presbyterian Church but still continued to have influence within it.
 

ALAYMAN

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When should you attempt to INFLUENCE or SEPARATE?

Fundamentalists have practiced separation as one of their key ingredients. Some fundamentalists were chased out of groups that they were unable to influence. While, others just shook the dust off their feet. Separatists have been critical of the Influencers and vice versa.

So... the point of this thread is to discuss the factors involved, timing, issues and methods for trying to influence vs. separate.

Since this thread is not about Ruckman-Complete-Dispensationalism-"watch my YouTube," I expect that this thread will stay on course.
it is hard to influence somebody when you separate, and it is easy to separate when you check your brain at the door and try not to understand other people's perspective.
 
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