Iran is attacking Israel...

[biscuit1953]

No, but in neither Galatians nor Romans 11 does Paul say that the promises are for the physical descendants. If you are Christ's, you are heirs according to the promise.

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

The prosperity preachers today take the promises given to Israel and apply them to the church. The promises to Israel were that if they obeyed the commandments they would prosper, be healed of all diseases and be blessed (Deut 29-30). One unfailing promise to the church is that all who live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. The church isn't promised physical blessings as Israel was.

 

[biscuit1953]

Is that an allegory?

It is an allegory clearly defined in Ezekiel 37:11-14 where God promises to bring the Jews back from the grave of nations and place them back in their own land. Context is important when looking at metaphors.
Eze 37:13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
Eze 37:14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.

 

[biscuit1953]

The reason God would bring Israel back to her land was not for her sake but for "God's holy name's sake that the heathen shall know that I am the Lord, saith the Lord God" (Eze 36:22-24). Any unbiased person can look at the miracle rebirth of physical Israel and know that God is sovereign.

 

[Ransom]

The prosperity preachers today take the promises given to Israel and apply them to the church.

This is a promise given to Israel:

“In that day

“I will restore David’s fallen shelter—
I will repair its broken walls
and restore its ruins—
and will rebuild it as it used to be,
so that they may possess the remnant of Edom
and all the nations that bear my name,”
declares the Lord, who will do these things. (Amos 9:11-12)​

Scripture applies it to the church:

"Simon has described to us how God first intervened to choose a people for his name from the Gentiles. The words of the prophets are in agreement with this, as it is written:

“‘After this I will return
and rebuild David’s fallen tent.
Its ruins I will rebuild,
and I will restore it,
that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord,
even all the Gentiles who bear my name,
says the Lord, who does these things’—
things known from long ago." (Acts 15:14-18)​

Jeremiah makes a promise to Israel:

“The days are coming,” declares the Lord,
“when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to them,”
declares the Lord.
“This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the Lord.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the Lord.
“For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.” (Jer. 31:31-34)​

which the author of Hebrews applies to the church:

the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises.

For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. But God found fault with the people and said:

“The days are coming, declares the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
and I turned away from them,
declares the Lord.
This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”

By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear. (Heb. 8:6-13)​

Hosea makes a promise to Israel:

I will show my love to the one I called ‘Not my loved one.’
I will say to those called ‘Not my people,’ ‘You are my people’. (Hos. 2:23)​

Paul says it applies to the church:

even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? As he says in Hosea:

“I will call them ‘my people’ who are not my people;
and I will call her ‘my loved one’ who is not my loved one.” (Rom. 9:24-25)​

Isaiah made this promise to Israel:

This is what the Lord says:

“In the time of my favor I will answer you,
and in the day of salvation I will help you." (Isa. 49:8)​

Paul says it applies to the church:

As God’s co-workers we urge you not to receive God’s grace in vain. For he says,

“In the time of my favor I heard you,
and in the day of salvation I helped you.”

I tell you, now is the time of God’s favor, now is the day of salvation. (2 Cor. 6:1-2)​

There are many others, too, that are less direct. More broadly speaking, it's the very thesis of Paul's letter to the Galatians that God accepts Gentiles as well as Jews because, as followers of Christ, they are the true heirs of the Abrahamic promises. The thesis of the letter to the Hebrews is that the types of the Old Covenant find their fulfillment in Christ, the High Priest of the New Covenant, which is the church.

It's got nothing to do with "prosperity preachers." That's just dishonest misdirection and guilt by association. The promises of the Old Testament find their fulfillment in the New. That's basic Christian theology.

 

[Ransom]

The promises to Israel were that if they obeyed the commandments they would prosper, be healed of all diseases and be blessed (Deut 29-30).

And he also promised the very opposite if they failed to uphold the covenant:

Just as all the good things that the Lord your God promised concerning you have been fulfilled for you, so the Lord will bring upon you all the evil things, until he has destroyed you from off this good land that the Lord your God has given you, if you transgress the covenant of the Lord your God, which he commanded you, and go and serve other gods and bow down to them. Then the anger of the Lord will be kindled against you, and you shall perish quickly from off the good land that he has given to you. (Josh. 23:15-16)​

God promised them land, and he kept that promise completely: "Not one word of all the good promises that the Lord had made to the house of Israel had failed; all came to pass" (Josh. 21:45). And he warned them that he would take the same land away if they failed to keep his covenant, he he kept that promise, too.

Are the Jewish people presently living in the modern state of Israel covenantally faithful? No, because they have rejected their Messiah, Jesus. So it stands to reason that their present occupation of that territory isn't necessarily a fulfillment of a promise given to faithful Israel.

None of this, of course, is "spiritualizing" Old Testament prophecy, unless by "spiritualizing" you mean taking what the biblical authors said, Old and New Testament both, at face value--which is to say, literally. If a New Testament author says, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, that a promise given to Israel was fulfilled in the church, then that is a literal fulfillment, and there need be no further debate on that topic.

 

[Ekklesian]

You talk about Gog and Magog being "spiritualized" and yet you spiritualize the prophecies given to the descendants of Abraham as being fulfilled by the Church.

That is true. I was pointing out that no one approaches the prophecies as a pure 'literalist.' Those who pooh pooh allegory as unbelief seem quite ready to employ it themselves when it fits their own favored readings.

Jonathan Brentner wrote an article several years ago explaining how allegorizing scripture crept into the church. In the 2nd century A.D. Clement and Origen embraced Greek philosophy and maintained that Scripture must be understood allegorically so as not to contradict it. The church Council of Nicea, which met in A.D. 325, condemned the teachings of Origen and affirmed the place of the book of Revelation in the New Testament in direct contradiction to Origen's rejection of Jesus' thousand-year reign as described in Revelation 20:1-10. He points out that racism has historically been the one of the three foundations of amillennialism and the resurgence of this teaching explains the rapid increase of animosity towards Israel and the Jewish people. The reformers robbed the physical descendants of the literal prophecies concerning them and gave it to the church.

The Unbiblical Basis of Amillennialism — Jonathan Brentner

Amillennialism dominated the church during the dark ages and persisted long after the Reformation. The reason for this rests with three factors that fueled this teaching for well over a thousand years and remain in place today, at least to some degree. It’s vital to our faith that we understand the

www.jonathanbrentner.com

Not so fast. Paul was a liberal employer of allegory. He identified those of faith, that is the church, as the true children of Abraham and heirs according to the Promise.

For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. - Galatians 3:26-29​

​

He said the narrative of Sarah and Hagar was an allegory of the two Covenants, the Old and the New. Sarah represents the New Covenant, also referred to as the Jerusalem above. Hagar represents the Old Covenent, the Jerusalem that 'now' is, or, in other words, Jerusalem according to the law: the priesthood, the temple, the offerings, the tribes, the land, the feasts, the sabbaths, etc.

Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free. - Galatians 4:30-31​

​

The church is the Holy City.

But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. - Hebrews 12:22-24​

​

It's pretty straight forward. I mean, we're told these things directly by the Apostles themselves. It's not like we made them up to reconcile apparent contradictions. What's made up is the silly notion that the Old Covenant is still hanging on somehow waiting for the delivery of some unfulfilled promise...that the church age is a sort of parenthetical age interrupting God's real agenda.

The only thing that can be classified as parenthetical is the law. The Promise came first. Then the law came. And the law was temporary, and served until the seed should come to whom the Promise was made, meaning Christ.

There is no more law, and therefore, there is no more priesthood, or temple, or offerings, or land, or feasts, or sabbaths, etc.

I will sometimes ask someone who takes a word out of context to make it mean something that is ludicrous this question, "What does P-O-L-I-S-H spell?" The answer is usually someone from the nation of Poland. I tell them that is incorrect. It spells polish as in shoe polish but if you put it in a context the meaning is obvious. The Church of Christ will use John 3:4-5 to prove Jesus taught baptismal regeneration. In the context water is obviously talking about the physical birth in contrast to the spiritual birth for in verse 5 it says "that which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit." Many problem passages can easily be cleared up using this principle.

Yes, yes.

The same is true with the words of Gog and Magog. The website "Got Questions" contrasts the two contexts.

1. In the battle of Ezekiel 38-39, the armies come primarily from the north and involve only a few nations of the earth (Ezekiel 38:6, 15; 39:2). The battle in Revelation 20:7-9 will involve all nations, so armies will come from all directions, not just from the north.

2. There is no mention of Satan in the context of Ezekiel 38-39. In Revelation 20:7 the context clearly places the battle at the end of the millennium with Satan as the primary character.

3. Ezekiel 39:11–12 states that the dead will be buried for seven months. There would be no need to bury the dead if the battle in Ezekiel 38—39 is the one described in Revelation 20:8–9, for immediately following Revelation 20:8–9 is the Great White Throne judgment (20:11–15) and then the present heaven and earth are destroyed, replaced by a new heaven and earth (Revelation 21:1). There obviously will be a need to bury the dead if the battle takes place before or in the early part of the tribulation, for the land of Israel will be occupied for another 1,000 years, the length of the millennial kingdom (Revelation 20:4–6).

4. The battle in Ezekiel 38-39 is used by God to bring Israel back to Him (Ezekiel 39:21-29). In Revelation 20, Israel has been faithful to God for 1,000 years (the millennial kingdom). Those in Revelation 20:7-10 who are rebellious are destroyed without any more opportunity for repentance.

What are Gog and Magog? | GotQuestions.org

What are Gog and Magog? When will Gog and Magog attempt to destroy Israel? What modern nations represent Gog and Magog?

www.gotquestions.org

Yes, that's a good contrast. And I agree, Gog and Magog is allegorical of the world making war with the saints. The saints. Not the Jews.

God brought present day Israel which was a dead nation for 2500 years from the grave to once again be numbered among the nations of the world and all the prophecies concerning them will be fulfilled literally. Amen.

It's a very inglorious resurrection at that. See above.

 

[aleshanee]

who modern day israel is with regards to scripture and prophecy has no bearing on why i continue to stand with them and support them......... fact is - as a nation - israel is one of the best friends our country has and is also the closest thing to a democracy in that part of the world..... ...that alone should be enough reason to want to see our country continue it;s support and assistance to israel - regardless of what believe or don;t believe about their place in prophecy..... ....the same people who want to destroy them want to destroy us too... .. and they show no signs of backing off from trying to make it happen or to ever cease from making their threats.... .....

and to be honest with you... though i have been a part of these forums for close to 2 decades... i;m still in a state of unbelief that there would be people here.. ..long time christians... . who refuse to stand with israel and who seem to be willing to let them be destroyed.... ....but i guess it;s to each their own -

 

[biscuit1953]

I will stand by my understanding but by no means do I have any ill will towards those who don't come to the same conclusions. As in other matters of faith and practice, "Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind" (Rom 14:5).