Post Trib

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rskillman

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I was pre-trib even after reading the Bible a couple of times. But after I read my bible 8 times I finally realized, "OH!" pre-trib isn't in the Bible. I didn't get what I believe from any preacher. George Mueller read his Bible over 100x and he said of the new doctrine "If you can show me a trumpet after the last (1 Corinthians 15:52) and a resurrection before the first (Revelation 20:4-5), then I can believe this new doctrine."" It is a new doctrine, and when you read your Bible (not scoffield but plain old King James no commentary added, and read the bible ALOT you'll see...)

the time of Jacob is the day of the Lord, time of wrath which is after the tribulation when Jesus returns (Second Coming, no three comings)

How will the rapture be so secretive when Lord descends from heaven with a shout and voice of an angel and a trump!

My best argument for post-trib is that the resurrection of the dead in Christ does not happen until the rapture after the tribulation at the day of the Lord when the sun moon & stars are darkened.

READ THESE VERSES:

Matt. Ch 24 vs 29 & 30  29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 “And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.”



JOB 14:11-12
11 As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decays and dries up:
12 So man lies down, and does not rise: until the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.



ISAIAH 13:9-11

9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.



DANIEl 7:13-14

13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

That verse above proves that when he comes in the clouds, immediately follows his reign on earth.



DANIEL 12:1-3
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince who stands for the children of your people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time your people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth, shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3 And those who are wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and those who turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.


JOEL 2:10-11

10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:

11 And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army
: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?



JOEL 2:30-31
30 And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD come.



MATTHEW 24:9-33; 38-42
21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25Behold, I have told you before.

26Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

28For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

32Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

40Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

42Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.



MARK 13:7-27
24But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

25And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

26And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory
.

27And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.



LUKE 21:9-28
25And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

26Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

27And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

28And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.



JOHN 6:39-40
39 And this is the Father's will who has sent me, that of all which he has given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him who sent me, that every one who sees the Son, and believes in him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.



JOHN 6:44
44 No man can come to me, except the Father who has sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.



JOHN 6:54
54 Whoever eats my flesh, and drinks my blood, has eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.



JOHN 11:24
24 Martha said to him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.



1 CORINTHIANS 15:20-23
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the first-fruits of those who slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the first-fruits; afterward those who are Christ's at his coming.



1 CORINTHIANS 15:51-53
51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.



1 THESSALONIANS 4:15-17
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain to the coming of the Lord shall not go before those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: so shall we ever be with the Lord.



2 THESSALONIANS 1:7-9
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven1 with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God
, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;



2 THESSALONIANS 2:3-4

3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.





2 PETER 3:7-12
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved for fire against the day of judgement and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to usward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons aught you to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting to the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?



ACTS 2:19-20
19 And I will show wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:




REVELATION 6:12-14
12 And when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, even as a fig tree casts her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.



REVELATION 7:9-10, 13-14
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and tribes, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God who sits upon the throne, and to the lamb.
13 And one of the elders answered, saying to me, Who are these who are arrayed in white robes? and where did they come from?
14 And I said to him, Sir, you know. And he said to me, these are those who came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the lamb.


REVELATION 20:1-3 the souls of those who were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years ."

 

prophet

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Anybody who actually studies the Word, instead of men's commentaries, sees that the pretrib was fabricated out of whole cloth.

Mat 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This seems to be a no brainer.

Then you meet people who apparently have no brain, since they only use other's brains to think with....and you think maybe this is only taught by the Holy Spirit to those who are of the "hearing of faith" flock , mentioned in Gal. 3.
 

FSSL

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rskillman said:
I was pre-trib even after reading the Bible a couple of times. But after I read my bible 8 times I finally realized, "OH!" pre-trib isn't in the Bible. I didn't get what I believe from any preacher.
Says this, then says...

George Mueller read his Bible over 100x and he said of the new doctrine ....
 

FSSL

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prophet said:
Then you meet people who apparently have no brain, since they only use other's brains to think with....
Don't be so hard on our new poster. Skillman likes George Meuller.
 

prophet

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FSSL said:
prophet said:
Then you meet people who apparently have no brain, since they only use other's brains to think with....
Don't be so hard on our new poster. Skillman likes George Meuller.
Lol. 
Good catch, on the "I don't, but I do".

Anxiously awaiting our Wed. Night midweek Bible Study.
 

The Rogue Tomato

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prophet said:
Anybody who actually studies the Word, instead of men's commentaries, sees that the pretrib was fabricated out of whole cloth.

Mat 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This seems to be a no brainer.
Yup.  My only caveat is that I don't call it "post-trib".  There is still a period of wrath that occurs after Jesus returns and cuts the great tribulation short (and raptures the saints).  That's why I call it "pre-wrath". 

The real sticking point for me when I studied this was that a strictly post-trib position tells you pretty much exactly when Jesus returns, since you can calculate it based on when the man of sin is revealed (assuming you believe the whole 70th week 7 year period stuff). 

And that's contradicted by the "no one knows the day or hour".  However, when I realized the great tribulation is cut short, I realized you CAN'T know the day or hour.  We don't know how short Jesus will cut the great tribulation.  The great tribulation could last a week, a month, a year, whatever. 

 

FSSL

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My caveat is that evrything that needs to happen has already happened. There are no "signs of the times."
 

prophet

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FSSL said:
My caveat is that evrything that needs to happen has already happened. There are no "signs of the times."
Yeah, I tire of hearing the list of what Jesus said wasn't a sign, listed as if He had said the opposite:

Mat 24:6-9
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars:

"see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet."

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you:and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
 

The Rogue Tomato

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prophet said:
FSSL said:
My caveat is that evrything that needs to happen has already happened. There are no "signs of the times."
Yeah, I tire of hearing the list of what Jesus said wasn't a sign, listed as if He had said the opposite:

Mat 24:6-9
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars:

"see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet."

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you:and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Yeah, remember what happened immediately after the great tribulation?  How the stars fell from heaven, and the powers of the heavens were shaken, and how we saw the sign of Jesus returning, and how all the tribes of the earth mourned on that day?  And how Jesus came in on the clouds with power and great glory?  Yeah, good times, good times.  That was a day I'll never forget. 

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
 

FSSL

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The Rogue Tomato said:
Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn...
Yeah... that passage is difficult for the post tribs and amills.
 

The Rogue Tomato

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FSSL said:
The Rogue Tomato said:
Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn...
Yeah... that passage is difficult for the post tribs and amills.
Why is that?  I have no problem with it. 
 

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PostTribbers and Amils have believers going through the trib.
 

The Rogue Tomato

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FSSL said:
PostTribbers and Amils have believers going through the trib.
Yes, so?  What does that have to do with this verse? 
 

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It says the tribulation.
 

The Rogue Tomato

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FSSL said:
It says the tribulation.
You're going to have to elaborate a lot better than that.  I'm not following you at all. 

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
This passage is pretty clear.  Immediately after the tribulation (the great tribulation, if you read the context), there will be signs in the heaven, Jesus returns, and when the people of the earth see it, they will mourn. 

The parallel passage in Revelation goes like this:

12 I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. 13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. 14 Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. 15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders,[g] the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16 and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”
They see Jesus and are terrified, because they know it is the great day of his wrath.  The great tribulation is over.  Like Matthew 24 says, this is immediately AFTER the great tribulation.  Now the time of wrath begins, and we are not appointed to wrath. 

So, almost simultaneous with this event is the rapture, which you can see from both Matthew 24 and Revelation 7.  The saints are present and raptured when Jesus returns. 

So... how exactly does this present a problem for post trib? 
 

prophet

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The Rogue Tomato said:
FSSL said:
It says the tribulation.
You're going to have to elaborate a lot better than that.  I'm not following you at all. 

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
This passage is pretty clear.  Immediately after the tribulation (the great tribulation, if you read the context), there will be signs in the heaven, Jesus returns, and when the people of the earth see it, they will mourn. 

The parallel passage in Revelation goes like this:

12 I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. 13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. 14 Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. 15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders,[g] the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16 and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”
They see Jesus and are terrified, because they know it is the great day of his wrath.  The great tribulation is over.  Like Matthew 24 says, this is immediately AFTER the great tribulation.  Now the time of wrath begins, and we are not appointed to wrath. 

So, almost simultaneous with this event is the rapture, which you can see from both Matthew 24 and Revelation 7.  The saints are present and raptured when Jesus returns. 

So... how exactly does this present a problem for post trib?
It doesn't present a problem, but it does expose several hang-ups.

Hang-up #1:
That The Omnipresent Holy Spirit of God will be removed from Earth.
This usually stems from a misunderstanding of John 16.

Jn 16:8-11
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

They read this as if Jesus was saying that He would send the Holy Spirit  into the World here.
But He isn't saying that.
He is saying that the World will be affected by The Holy Spirit, when He is sent into the believers.

Verse 10 would make no sense, with any other interpretation.

This hang-up leads one to believe that there will be no believers on Earth to be tried by the Great Tribulation.

Which leads to them making up things like '144,000 "Jews" are gong to preach the Gospel during the Trib'

Or : 'Works will be "reinstated" as the form of salvation.

 
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