"Preacher Boy" free labor.....

[tmjbog]

You've supported throughout our conversations. Everyone has seen you support them.

I have been actively "naming names" and you've have been actively defending them against what I've said and you somehow don't know them? That makes your conduct even worse.

Well, I know them only as names you presented. I've never seen or heard any of them speak. For that matter the names are completely foreign to me outside of my conversations with you. Even with my conversations with you I have not and would not condone any illegal behavior inside or outside the IFB.

The things I've defended or more accurately did not condemn are things that are just part of your IFB fault finding campaign. For instance you condemned one of them for taking up the prayer position in a photo. I'll repeat, if that's the worst thing that guy does he's in pretty good shape. You will be a much happier person when you learn to forgive those who have wronged you in the past.

 

[treasure_unseen]

Well, I know them only as names you presented. I've never seen or heard any of them speak. For that matter the names are completely foreign to me outside of my conversations with you. Even with my conversations with you I have not and would not condone any illegal behavior inside or outside the IFB.

The things I've defended or more accurately did not condemn are things that are just part of your IFB fault finding campaign. For instance you condemned one of them for taking up the prayer position in a photo. I'll repeat, if that's the worst thing that guy does he's in pretty good shape.

Again, you don't know them, yet you have defended them because they are under the IFB umbrella that you blindly support. Get it. You don't know them... Blind support......

I've said much more than to rightfully point out their self marketing campaigns through disobey the Words of Jesus Christ concerning praying in secret. I mean they use their own likeness for a reason. They're not using a "stand in". They're not using a "nobody". They're not point the camera at a large number of people praying in unity..... they ARE FOCUSING ON THEMSELVES.......

Yet, you see nothing wrong with it. You do this because you prefer THEM to the Truth of God.

You will be a much happier person when you learn to forgive those who have wronged you in the past.

Here you go again. Trying to introduce the same old false narrative. I've told you, they haven't wronged me. They didn't get my money nor my support. However, they HAVE wrong God's children. People my Master cares deeply about.

I realize YOU don't care. I do care. Let people judge between us and God will speak one day and settle this.

 

[tmjbog]

Again, you don't know them, yet you have defended them because they are under the IFB umbrella that you blindly support. Get it. You don't know them... Blind support......

I've said much more than to rightfully point out their self marketing campaigns through disobey the Words of Jesus Christ concerning praying in secret. I mean they use their own likeness for a reason. They're not using a "stand in". They're not using a "nobody". They're not point the camera at a large number of people praying in unity..... they ARE FOCUSING ON THEMSELVES.......

Yet, you see nothing wrong with it. You do this because you prefer THEM to the Truth of God.

I did not defend any individual. I failed to condemn an action. I don't know enough about these men you speak of to defend or condemn them personally. I do see how if one was an evangelist who speaks to many people and pastors and only have a very limited amount of time to speak to each that putting a photo of oneself on a prayer card would be a concise way to allow others to know what you consider to be important. Now if you know the man and that he never prays or could care less about prayer, then he's being deceitful. Without knowing him I don't find a reason to condemn him for this. And if you know your NT you know that every prayer was not done in secret.

 

[treasure_unseen]

I did not defend any individual. I failed to condemn an action. I don't know enough about these men you speak of to defend or condemn them personally. I do see how if one was an evangelist who speaks to many people and pastors and only have a very limited amount of time to speak to each that putting a photo of oneself on a prayer card would be a concise way to allow others to know what you consider to be important.

You're defending him specifically. You have repeatedly. You must have an aversion to the truth. At the very least, you don't mind lying repeatedly.

So you don't know him but you know he is really busy? So busy that he speaks to so many people that he needs create marketing material to show that he's praying? You can't make this stuff up. How old are you? You act like a teenager that that just got a speeding ticket but isn't experienced enough with lying to effective hide their transgression.

He's trying get MORE work. He isn't too busy. He's trying to SELL HIMSELF. People that are too busy doing what they're called to do don't need to "sell" themselves.

Now if you know the man and that he never prays or could care less about prayer, then he's being deceitful. Without knowing him I don't find a reason to condemn him for this. And if you know your NT you know that every prayer was not done in secret.

He took a picture of himself to sell himself. He did this in direct violation to what Jesus taught. He could have used an stand in. He could used an indistinct picture of a large group of people praying.... NO. He used a very good picture of himself. In fact, it was a STAGED PICTURE of himself .... PRETENDING to pray. Geesh...

 

[tmjbog]

You're defending him specifically. You have repeatedly. You must have an aversion to the truth. At the very least, you don't mind lying repeatedly.

So you don't know him but you know he is really busy? So busy that he speaks to so many people that he needs create marketing material to show that he's praying? You can't make this stuff up. How old are you? You act like a teenager that that just got a speeding ticket but isn't experienced enough with lying to effective hide their transgression.

He's trying get MORE work. He isn't too busy. He's trying to SELL HIMSELF. People that are too busy doing what they're called to do don't need to "sell" themselves.

The funniest part is I don't even know which guy we are talking about specifically. I would have to scroll back through the thread to see. When Billy Gram had pictures kneeling taken I find nothing wrong with it. When President Trump has his photo taken in prayer I have no problem with it. When whomever you come up with as the latest IFB villain has his photo taken kneeling I don't have a problem with it. I think there are enough real IFB villains out there that we do not need to take harmless acts and turn them into capital offenses.

My assumption would be he would have limited time to speak with individuals since the churches I've been a part of that is usually the case. When missionaries/evangelists come through they typically have a table set up after the service and they have 25-30 minutes to talk to 600+ people.

 

[illinoisguy]

If the worst stuff we can come with concerning the IFB movement is that one preacher that nobody ever heard of was seen praying in public, or that some IFB preachers accept free labor that was freely offered by people who wanted to serve the Lord, then maybe the IFB movement is not as bad as some of us, including myself, thought that it was.

Nothing to see here, folks - everybody move on.

 

[treasure_unseen]

The funniest part is I don't even know which guy we are talking about specifically. I would have to scroll back through the thread to see. When Billy Gram had pictures kneeling taken I find nothing wrong with it. When President Trump has his photo taken in prayer I have no problem with it. When whomever you come up with as the latest IFB villain has his photo taken kneeling I don't have a problem with it. I think there are enough real IFB villains out there that we do not need to take harmless acts and turn them into capital offenses.

Its not harmless. Was Jesus wrong for preaching against it?

Again, its telling that you don't "know" these people but you've been actively defending anything they do.

My assumption would be he would have limited time to speak with individuals since the churches I've been a part of that is usually the case. When missionaries/evangelists come through they typically have a table set up after the service and they have 25-30 minutes to talk to 600+ people.

Really? They often preach for hours "when they come through" and you've somehow created the lie that they don't have time???

 

[treasure_unseen]

If the worst stuff we can come with concerning the IFB movement is that one preacher that nobody ever heard of was seen praying in public, or that some IFB preachers accept free labor that was freely offered by people who wanted to serve the Lord, then maybe the IFB movement is not as bad as some of us, including myself, thought that it was.

Nothing to see here, folks - everybody move on.

Is that you honest assessment or are you being sarcastic?

First, I never limited the scope to just these areas. I'm just getting started.....

That "free labor" is coerced with miss applied Scripture to the benefit of the so called "preacher". So they are abusing the Scriptures. Does that bother you at all?

Did Jesus make a mistake when he preached against the way these so called "preachers" pray?

 

[tmjbog]

ts not harmless. Was Jesus wrong for preaching against it?

Again, its telling that you don't "know" these people but you've been actively defending anything they do.

Were the Christians who gathered to pray Peter out of prison in Acts 12 wrong for praying together?

I've not defended "these people" or "anything they do" I've spoken out strongly against Ruckman. Jack Hyles and the 100 percenters were/are wrong in many ways. Dave Hyles and Jack Schaap-there are a couple of true IFB villains for you. Plus many others that I've heard about who were either involved in gross immorality or outright illegal acts. That's why it's silly to focus on such mundane things.

 

[treasure_unseen]

Were the Christians who gathered to pray Peter out of prison in Acts 12 wrong for praying together?

No. They were together. Jesus prayed with his disciples. He didn't take pictures of Himself praying and pass them out to market His ministry. Don't tell me He couldn't. He could have. Nothing is impossible with God.

There is this old old principle that exists from the beginning with those who proclaim the Truth.....

The "TRUTH" is good enough..... in and of itself. It has the innate and intrinsic qualities of convicting, converting, and changing humanity.

Pretenders believe they have to "help".... themselves when it comes to the Truth. You don't. You just have to proclaim it. You've obviously never been taught this. Thus, you don't know. You don't care to know. You expect God to bring someone to your doorstep and teach you everything you need to know. You believe this so much that you refuse to seek God in and of yourself. People like you refuse to accept these truths. You prefer to please men. It is much harder to please God and it is too tough for you.

I've not defended "these people" or "anything they do" I've spoken out strongly against Ruckman. Jack Hyles and the 100 percenters were/are wrong in many ways. Dave Hyles and Jack Schaap-there are a couple of true IFB villains for you. Plus many others that I've heard about who were either involved in gross immorality or outright illegal acts. That's why it's silly to focus on such mundane things.

The proverbial "any ole blind man" could tell those people were not of God. Does it really take those who commit sex crimes to get on your "radar"?

 

[tmjbog]

No. They were together. Jesus prayed with his disciples. He didn't take pictures of Himself praying and pass them to market His ministry. Don't tell me He couldn't. He could have. Nothing is impossible with God.

Well based on that logic, no Christian should ever drive a car. Since we know that Jesus could have done a miracle and created a car to drive around. Since he did not do this as an example for Christians to follow, we know that no Christian should drive a car. This is the silliness that comes with nitpicking. You have to twist Scripture to fit your scenario. There are lots of things that Christians do today they did not do in Jesus' day.

 

[treasure_unseen]

Well based on that logic, no Christian should ever drive a car.

I'd love to see you make the logical connection from what I said to "No Christian should ever drive a car". Just hit the highlights of that complex connection......

There is no logic involved connecting cars with how Jesus prayed and taught others to pray.

Since we know that Jesus could have done a miracle and created a car to drive around. Since he did not do this as an example for Christians to follow, we know that no Christian should drive a car.

Try again. That is logically ridiculous. We know what Jesus did and what Jesus taught concerning how to pray. You've introduced a silly hypothetical situation that has absolutely no connect except for "Jesus could have".....

Do you know how ridiculous such logical connections are? I'm NOT making an argument based upon what Jesus could have done. I am making an argument based explicitly upon what Jesus did and taught.

This is the silliness that comes with nitpicking. You have to twist Scripture to fit your scenario. There are lots of things that Christians do today they did not do in Jesus' day.

The silliness is when you reject what Jesus did and taught concerning a specific action and introduce "what ifs" based upon your modern sensibilities. There is simple phrase to describe what you're doing. Its called "REJECTING GOD'S WORD".

I'll give you can example of what you're doing....

You might as well reject any manor of doctrine Jesus taught because Jesus didn't perform the miracle of creating a car to drive around in. So much for Salvation through the shed Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ. After all, Jesus didn't create a car.......

Get it. That is how logical/deductive fallacies work. Not that you would know. You're accustom to listening to people that "make up" most anything for their own benefit. Doesn't matter if its real/true or not. Its "no wonder" you are the way you are. You don't know any different and you don't want to know.

 

[treasure_unseen]

Well based on that logic, no Christian should ever drive a car. Since we know that Jesus could have done a miracle and created a car to drive around. Since he did not do this as an example for Christians to follow, we know that no Christian should drive a car. This is the silliness that comes with nitpicking. You have to twist Scripture to fit your scenario. There are lots of things that Christians do today they did not do in Jesus' day.

Again and again. Over and over, tmjbirg shows his dishonesty by refusing to deal with everything said. Brick by brick. Line by line. Principle by principle. He/she just "nit picks" around the edges of what I say. Never really dealing with ALL OF IT in context.

I'm the "nit picker" here. tmjborg is.

 

[tmjbog]

Try again. That is logically ridiculous.

Yep. Agreed. Just as ridiculous as saying that since Jesus did not through a miracle create a camera and have is picture taken that means no Christian should have his picture taken in prayer position.

 

[tmjbog]

Get it. That is how logical/deductive fallacies work. Not that you would know.

I'm not sure you really know.

 

[treasure_unseen]

Yep. Agreed. Just as ridiculous as saying that since Jesus did not through a miracle create a camera and have is picture taken that means no Christian should have his picture taken in prayer position.

That is your false narrative of what I've said. I said for you not to use that logic. Which YOU did. I didn't.

What Jesus DID do, is clear. What Jesus DID say is clear. You're the one appealing to this modern age to find a distinction. No such distinction exists that allows you to ignore what Jesus taught based upon what Jesus "could have done".

 

[treasure_unseen]

I'm not sure you really know.

You're so lost in you imagination it is almost impossible for you to deal honestly with what I've said. You prefer lies.

 

[illinoisguy]

I guess I am part of the big IFB cover-up, since I never was bothered by being offered the opportunity to serve the Lord with unpaid, un-coerced free labor when I was part of the IFB movement. I guess I was more pre-occupied with less important issues. For instance, as an IFB, I publicly protested against the idolatrous hero worship of Jack Hyles, Bush, and Peter Ruckman, against the sex perverts like Dave Hyles and Jack Schaap, against the abusive practices at Hephzibah House, against dictatorial "preacher rule" and the abusive bullying practices of IFB preachers and missionaries, against the IFB requirement of total blind support for Bush's war in Iraq which Trump now says was "a beauty of a mistake," against racism, against easy-believism, against Ruckmanism, against the policy of condemning people over pharisaical "standards" and dress codes, etc. Sorry, I was so pre-occupied with those minor issues that I neglected the really important issues like fighting pastors who allow their members to paint the church building or mow the lawn for free.

Yeah, I'm being sarcastic.

 

[tmjbog]

That is your false narrative of what I've said. I said for you not to use that logic. Which YOU did. I didn't.

What Jesus DID do, is clear. What Jesus DID say is clear. You're the one appealing to this modern age to find a distinction. No such distinction exists that allows you to ignore what Jesus taught based upon what Jesus "could have done".

What you actually said:

No. They were together. Jesus prayed with his disciples. He didn't take pictures of Himself praying and pass them out to market His ministry. Don't tell me He couldn't. He could have. Nothing is impossible with God.

You seem to be saying that Jesus had the ability to take pictures if he chose to. Since he did not; we should not. What am I missing?

 

[tmjbog]

I guess I am part of the big IFB cover-up, since I never was bothered by being offered the opportunity to serve the Lord with unpaid, un-coerced free labor when I was part of the IFB movement. I guess I was more pre-occupied with less important issues. For instance, as an IFB, I publicly protested against the idolatrous hero worship of Jack Hyles, Bush, and Peter Ruckman, against the sex perverts like Dave Hyles and Jack Schaap, against the abusive practices at Hephzibah House, against dictatorial "preacher rule" and the abusive bullying practices of IFB preachers and missionaries, against the IFB requirement of total blind support for Bush's war in Iraq which Trump now says was "a beauty of a mistake," against racism, against easy-believism, against Ruckmanism, against the policy of condemning people over pharisaical "standards" and dress codes, etc. Sorry, I was so pre-occupied with those minor issues that I neglected the really important issues like fighting pastors who allow their members to paint the church building or mow the lawn for free.

Yeah, I'm being sarcastic.

Nope. All of that is entirely impossible. If you were a member of an IFB church obviously you were drone slave to your pastor. It's not possible you could have a thought of your own. Treasure told me that's how it works.