Regeneration

S.T.Ranger

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When it comes to Bible interpretation, Regeneration is an issue that heads the list of what I see as important in understanding from Scripture. Christ makes it clear that men must be born again.

But here is the problem...there are many "interpretations" of Regeneration given by various groups. So this is an attempt to stir up conversation about the New Birth, and I will say at the beginning that I firmly hold to the belief that men were not regenerated until Pentecost, when the Age of Grace, or, Church Age began.

I do not post this on the Calvinism/Arminian board because I am not interested in debating what those Systems teach, I am interested in discussing and debating what the Bible teaches, and why we interpret these issues as we do. Solely looking at examining what the Word of God has to say, not Systems.

The simple premise is that the New Birth was promised in the Old Testament (Ezekiel 36:24-27) and is combined, and absolutely cannot be divorced from Eternal Indwelling of God ( I actually had someone recently tell me on one forum that they believed that men could be born again and not eternally indwelt, which, if you argue men were born again prior to Pentecost is one thing, but to hold that view in this Age is another). 

I would suggest that regeneration is a result of the Eternal Indwelling of God, which explains our being a new creature, having a new heart and a new spirit (two terms also open to debate as to whether one "receives a new spirit" as in relation to the spirit he has when born, whereas a new heart I think most would agree deals primarily with the mindset or attitude of the believer).

So I open up the discussion to those here who can look at this seriously. The common reaction is negative and hostile, because for many the thought that Abraham, Moses, and David were not "Christians" is absurd. But, to be clear, I do not question whether Abraham, Moses, or David were "saved" by grace through faith...from the eternal perspective of God. What I do affirm is that these men, and all Old Testament Saints died not having received the Atonement of the Cross, without which no man can be considered as Eternally Redeemed.

There is much Scripture to consider, and numerous issues that have to be dealt with, so, I ask that only those here who are serious about Biblical Interpretation should join in. This is not a subject that can be threshed out in short responses, but entails covering quite a bit of ground.

Give this some thought before responding, and if you don't mind, please point out if this is a subject you have considered before.


God bless.
 
Some thoughts below...

S.T.Ranger said:
When it comes to Bible interpretation, Regeneration is an issue that heads the list of what I see as important in understanding from Scripture. Christ makes it clear that men must be born again.

But here is the problem...there are many "interpretations" of Regeneration given by various groups. So this is an attempt to stir up conversation about the New Birth, and I will say at the beginning that I firmly hold to the belief that men were not regenerated until Pentecost, when the Age of Grace, or, Church Age began.

Please define terms; is "regeneration" the same thing as "being saved" or "born again"?


I do not post this on the Calvinism/Arminian board because I am not interested in debating what those Systems teach, I am interested in discussing and debating what the Bible teaches, and why we interpret these issues as we do. Solely looking at examining what the Word of God has to say, not Systems.

Heh... I'm sure they are convinced that those systems are what the BIble teaches... that'll leave a mark.


The simple premise is that the New Birth was promised in the Old Testament (Ezekiel 36:24-27) and is combined, and absolutely cannot be divorced from Eternal Indwelling of God ( I actually had someone recently tell me on one forum that they believed that men could be born again and not eternally indwelt, which, if you argue men were born again prior to Pentecost is one thing, but to hold that view in this Age is another).

I'm not sure that I follow you. It's clear that the Holy Spirit now indwells believers, and that He did not do so in the Old Testament times -- He came upon men as needed.  But surely you are not saying that the Old Testaments saints are lost, are you?


I would suggest that regeneration is a result of the Eternal Indwelling of God, which explains our being a new creature, having a new heart and a new spirit (two terms also open to debate as to whether one "receives a new spirit" as in relation to the spirit he has when born, whereas a new heart I think most would agree deals primarily with the mindset or attitude of the believer).

I'm not entirely sure about that -- Jesus told Nicodemus that  he "must" be born again to see heaven - that implies that Nicodemus could be born again, even though the Holy Spirit was not yet given.  To believe in Jesus seems to be the requirement to be born again.


So I open up the discussion to those here who can look at this seriously. The common reaction is negative and hostile, because for many the thought that Abraham, Moses, and David were not "Christians" is absurd. But, to be clear, I do not question whether Abraham, Moses, or David were "saved" by grace through faith...from the eternal perspective of God. What I do affirm is that these men, and all Old Testament Saints died not having received the Atonement of the Cross, without which no man can be considered as Eternally Redeemed.

Well, Abraham is called the Father of the faithful.  He was justified by his faith in God, just as we are justified by our faith in God. Abraham did not have the Holy Spirit indwelling him, and we do.  In a technical sense, a "Christian" is a "little Christ" or, more broadly, "a follower of Jesus Christ" -- it is, in  my opinion, sloppy to call Abraham (etc) "Christians" because Christ was not yet given, and how can they be a disciple of One who has not yet come into the world?  But they WERE believers.


There is much Scripture to consider, and numerous issues that have to be dealt with, so, I ask that only those here who are serious about Biblical Interpretation should join in. This is not a subject that can be threshed out in short responses, but entails covering quite a bit of ground.

Give this some thought before responding, and if you don't mind, please point out if this is a subject you have considered before.

God bless.

This is very close the the Calvinism/Arminian arguments, which I generally avoid.

I haven't really considered your topic as such, but it doesn't seem to be of prime importance.
 
S.T.Ranger said:
The simple premise is that the New Birth was promised in the Old Testament (Ezekiel 36:24-27) and is combined, and absolutely cannot be divorced from Eternal Indwelling of God ( I actually had someone recently tell me on one forum that they believed that men could be born again and not eternally indwelt, which, if you argue men were born again prior to Pentecost is one thing, but to hold that view in this Age is another). 
Ezekiel 36 is telling what will happen to the nation of Israel when Christ returns and they finally acknowledge that he is their Messiah.  It isn't speaking of the individual rebirth we experience today when we believe in Christ.

During the present age regeneration and the baptism of the Holy Spirit always happen at the same time but they are not the same thing.  It is only during the present church age that we are baptized into the body of Christ.  All who are saved during this age, all who were saved before Pentecost, and all who will be saved after the rapture of the church are regenerated.
 
Walt, thanks very much for your response, you make some key points which are simple Bible Truths that many who engage in this discussion do not acknowledge, and are in fact foundational issues which help us to arrange the necessary components of Regeneration.

As I warned in the OP, this is not a subject that can be threshed out without serious time spent on the subject, so I apologize in advance if the response seems long, but will break it up a little to make it easier to respond to in turn.

Walt said:
Some thoughts below...

S.T.Ranger said:
When it comes to Bible interpretation, Regeneration is an issue that heads the list of what I see as important in understanding from Scripture. Christ makes it clear that men must be born again.

But here is the problem...there are many "interpretations" of Regeneration given by various groups. So this is an attempt to stir up conversation about the New Birth, and I will say at the beginning that I firmly hold to the belief that men were not regenerated until Pentecost, when the Age of Grace, or, Church Age began.

Please define terms; is "regeneration" the same thing as "being saved" or "born again"?

Yes. Regeneration is mentioned in quite a few places in the New Testament, and in picture in the Old in a few, and has one basic concept being taught...being "Born of God."

In John 3 it can be properly interpreted "Except a man be born from above, he cannot see the kingdom of God," and we do not disrupt the teaching or concept, because He (the Lord) also states one must be born of water (the Word) and Spirit (God). I think "born again," for all intent and purpose, is a better translation because being born "again" is the conceptual image we see in 1 Peter and Titus, whereas, we still have the same root base of meaning in that men must be born of God in order to be the sons of God, or, in other words, brought into union with God on an eternal basis.

Which is the primary problem man has, he is conceived separated from God, and that is why he sins.

Born of God, born again, born of the Spirit, and born from above are all synonymous with salvation itself. It has two primary elements that are in place when it occurs, the water (the cleansing power of the Word of God, specifically, the Gospel, in this Age), and the Spirit. When we understand that God "was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself," we see a unique occurrence in the progressively revealed Plan of Redemption which has its starting point no sooner than the incarnation.

Consider:


John 1:11-13

King James Version (KJV)

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.



Being the sons of God is here made equivalent to being "Born of God."

And there are numerous passages that have to be looked at, but, this is a good point to present for discussion or debate, that the same concept is seen in being Born of God, again, from above, and of the Spirit.


Continued...
 
Walt said:
S.T.Ranger said:
I do not post this on the Calvinism/Arminian board because I am not interested in debating what those Systems teach, I am interested in discussing and debating what the Bible teaches, and why we interpret these issues as we do. Solely looking at examining what the Word of God has to say, not Systems.

Heh... I'm sure they are convinced that those systems are what the BIble teaches... that'll leave a mark.

Its just natural for people to want structure, which is why, unfortunately, people join Systems, and then make the mistake of learning those systems and then trying to justify the Doctrine of those systems.


Walt said:
S.T.Ranger said:
The simple premise is that the New Birth was promised in the Old Testament (Ezekiel 36:24-27) and is combined, and absolutely cannot be divorced from Eternal Indwelling of God ( I actually had someone recently tell me on one forum that they believed that men could be born again and not eternally indwelt, which, if you argue men were born again prior to Pentecost is one thing, but to hold that view in this Age is another).

I'm not sure that I follow you. It's clear that the Holy Spirit now indwells believers, and that He did not do so in the Old Testament times -- He came upon men as needed. 

And this is one of the foundational elements of the discussion, so thanks for making this statement. Yes, there is a distinction between the ministries of the Spirit of God in the lives of men prior to the establishment of the New Covenant and after, and in regards to the Spirit of God we can without controversy nail down the time when that Ministry changed:


John 16:7
King James Version (KJV)

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.



Further, we see Christ teaching Eternal Indwelling here:


John 14:15-17

King James Version (KJV)

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.


So the two changes Christ teaches concerning the Spirit's Ministry among men is that (1) rather than being with them, He would be in them, and, contrasted with the fact that He (Christ) is leaving them, the Comforter, the Spirit of God, would be with them for ever...when He was sent.

Now lets get specific as to timing and the Coming of the Comforter, at which time the Eternal Indwelling of God would begin:



Acts 1:4-5
King James Version (KJV)

4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.



While the "Baptism with the Holy Ghost" is taught by just about every group as an "empowering," the fact is that God has always empowered men for ministry, in roles such as Prophet, Priest, and King. The disciples themselves, when sent out to preach the Gospel of the Kingdom (which I view as specific to the Millennial Kingdom, though it has an application to this Age as well), were empowered by the Spirit of God to preach that Gospel (which I distinguish from the Gospel of Jesus Christ, which was not revealed in the sense of men gaining understanding in the Age of Law).

Again, Christ's goal in the Incarnation was to provide the opportunity for men "to become the sons of God," to be Born of God, which is why it is written that "God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself."

What I propose as a proper interpretation is that it is through the Cross of Christ, His Resurrection, and His sending of the Comforter is in fact the beginning of men being brought back into Eternal Union with God, and that this "renewing of the Holy Ghost" is the very reason why we are "changed," hence the designation "born again."

We have a new heart and spirit because we are now in Christ, contrasted to the lost, or natural condition we were born into.

The "Baptism with the Holy Ghost" is "immersion into God."


Continued...
 
Walt said:
But surely you are not saying that the Old Testaments saints are lost, are you?

No. The eternal destiny of men like Noah, Abraham, Moses, and David, men of faith, was just as secure as our own is.

What I am saying is that under Old Testament Economies we do not see men restored to Eternal Union with God.

So they were "saved by grace through faith," however, that does not change the fact that all these (men and women of faith) did not receive Eternal Redemption as a finished work, and died still offering up sacrifice for themselves for the physical, temporal, and temporary atonement provided by the sacrificial system God allowed, which we first see utilized by Abel:


Genesis 4
King James Version (KJV)

4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the Lord had respect unto Abel and to his offering:


The provision of the Old Testament (and this includes all Ages prior to the Age of Grace, or, the Church Age) is contrasted to the Provision of the New Covenant here:


Hebrews 12:22-24
King James Version (KJV)

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.


"But ye are come" contrasts "coming to the Covenant of Law (Hebrews 12:18-21)."

Concerning my statement that they died in their sins in the sense that their sins had not yet been atoned, contrary to the popular view that the Old Testament were "saved on credit," the Writer makes this clear here:



Hebrews 9:12-15
King James Version (KJV)

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.




The "us" of v.12 has first an application to Hebrews, the brethren the Writer is speaking to, seeking to convince them to "go on unto perfection," which refers to the more complete knowledge of the Doctrine of Christ, as contrasted with "the First Principles of the Oracles of God" in Hebrews 5:10-14.

Paul makes an identical statement here (in regards to the transgressions of the Old Testament Saints being redeemed by Christ, rather than the idea they were "spiritually redeemed on credit):


Romans 3:24-25
King James Version (KJV)

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;



Again, the Old Testament Saints died still offering up sacrifice for thier sins under Old Testament provision for atonement. When we equate that offering with the Offering of Christ, we diminish the magnitude of what Christ accomplished.

This is a key element in understanding regeneration, in my view. Regeneration was the promise of God, taught by Christ, and received "not many days hence" from the Day of the Ascension. The promise in view in Acts 1:4-5 is defined by Christ as the Baptism with the Holy Ghost, and the only teachings we can reasonably attribute His statement to is His teaching concerning the coming of the Spirit of God in the unique Ministry He would perform in this Age.

And I will give one more statement of Christ in this post which I see as relevant to man receiving the Spirit of God and Eternal Life (which is contrasted always in Christ's teaching to physical life):


John 7:38-39

King James Version (KJV)

38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)



Physical water provides for physical life, but, the Living Waters in view here represent Eternal Life, and that is inseparably linked to the coming of the Holy Ghost which would not occur prior to Christ's being glorified (here), and Christ returning to Heaven (John 16:7).


Continued...

 
Walt said:
S.T.Ranger said:
I would suggest that regeneration is a result of the Eternal Indwelling of God, which explains our being a new creature, having a new heart and a new spirit (two terms also open to debate as to whether one "receives a new spirit" as in relation to the spirit he has when born, whereas a new heart I think most would agree deals primarily with the mindset or attitude of the believer).

I'm not entirely sure about that -- Jesus told Nicodemus that  he "must" be born again to see heaven - that implies that Nicodemus could be born again, even though the Holy Spirit was not yet given. 

This is probably the best argument offered by those who believe men were born again prior to Pentecost, yet, I can show that we do not find men believing on Christ prior to Pentecost, not even the disciples.

You yourself point out some basic truth concerning salvation in your response, here is one of them:

In a technical sense, a "Christian" is a "little Christ" or, more broadly, "a follower of Jesus Christ" -- it is, in  my opinion, sloppy to call Abraham (etc) "Christians" because Christ was not yet given,


Here is another...

...and how can they be a disciple of One who has not yet come into the world? 



Walt, no man can argue with what you say here, because it is impossible for men to believe on Christ and His Resurrection...prior to Messiah actually coming into the world and dying in the stead of the sinner.

But, we don't have to just present the implicit teaching of Scripture, we can see from explicit teaching that not even the disciples believed on Christ, because after Christ rose again...the disciples did not believe He had:



Mark 16:9-14
King James Version (KJV)

9 Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.

10 And she went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept.

11 And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not.

12 After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.

13 And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them.

14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.



There are other passages where we see the same thing, as well as Christ saying clearly they would abandon Him and He would be left alone (though the Father was with Him). It is not a matter, I would clarify, that the disciples are to be held as guilty for not understanding, or that we discount them as men of faith, but, what we do have to do is place revelation in it's proper place, and know when understanding is given. For example, Adam and Eve did not understand Genesis 3:15 as we do. Abraham did not understand the promises he received as we do. Isaiah did not understand Isaiah 53 as we do.

Paul makes it clear the Gospel of Christ was a mystery not revealed in past Ages:


Romans 16:24-26
King James Version (KJV)

24 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:



John makes it clear that the disciples did not know the Scriptures that Christ should rise from the dead:



John 20:9
King James Version (KJV)

9 For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.


This is a point in this discussion that could make a Thread of it's own, and should have one, because there is much to indicate the lack of understanding of the Disciple in regards to the Gospel of Christ. When given the Gospel, this is Peter's reaction:


Matthew 16:20-23
King James Version (KJV)

20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.



In other words, "Lord, the only thing that can keep me from Hell shall never happen unto you!"

They did indeed He was the Christ, the Son of the Living God, but, the Gospel was not revealed until the Spirit of Truth came (1 Corinthians 2:5-10). So we do not discount thier faith, we simply place it into the context of that Age, the Age of Law, and acknowledge both explicit as well as implicit teachings that identify the disciples of Christ as Old Testament believers until they are Baptized with the Holy Ghost and then begin preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

While this passage...


Colossians 1:25-27
King James Version (KJV)

25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:



...has a focus on Gentile Inclusion, it cannot be mistaken that the Mystery was hidden from Ages and from generations, and is now made manifest to the Saints, which includes all Saints.

The Mystery is the Indwelling of God.

In John 14 Christ teaches what would happen after He returned to Heaven and sent the Spirit of Truth: they, the disciples, would then be indwelt by the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. It was not happening then.

So we have a hard time trying to impose a state of regeneration for people who could not, and did not, believe on the Risen Lord.

That they were men and women of faith is true, and as I said, their eternal destiny as sure as ours, because they were justified by grace through faith. We also have a hard time equating Regeneration, which is said of Peter to be a result of the Sacrifice and Resurrection of Christ, with the faith in God expressed by Old Testament saints...


1 Peter 1
King James Version (KJV)

2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,



Regeneration is the result of faith in Christ, and effected by the Sacrifice and Resurrection of Christ. Not even the disciples were placing their faith in the Risen Lord prior to Pentecost.

Continued...

 
Walt said:
To believe in Jesus seems to be the requirement to be born again.

That is an indisputable Bible Truth.

And not one person understood the Mystery of the Gospel prior to its revelation in this Age.


Walt said:
S.T.Ranger said:
So I open up the discussion to those here who can look at this seriously. The common reaction is negative and hostile, because for many the thought that Abraham, Moses, and David were not "Christians" is absurd. But, to be clear, I do not question whether Abraham, Moses, or David were "saved" by grace through faith...from the eternal perspective of God. What I do affirm is that these men, and all Old Testament Saints died not having received the Atonement of the Cross, without which no man can be considered as Eternally Redeemed.

Well, Abraham is called the Father of the faithful.  He was justified by his faith in God, just as we are justified by our faith in God.

Abraham was justified by faith and works, and I would suggest to you there is a distinct difference between that and being justified by the Blood of Christ:



Romans 3:21-26

King James Version (KJV)

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.



This too is a Thread unto its own.

Paul and James teach how Abraham is justified, and while we can impose an eternal aspect to Abraham's justification by grace through faith, we still have to deal with the fact that Abraham, as well as every other Old Testament Saint...were still in need of Eternal Redemption. Again, the popular view that they were "saved on credit" is misleading, because it equates Redemption and Atonement in regards to Old Testament Provision and New, Old Covenant provision and New, Old Testament Promise and the receiving of those promise in reality.

Hebrews makes it clear that the Saints of Old were not made "perfect," or, complete, in regards to remission of sins. The blood of bulls, goats, and calves could not take away sins and provide entrance to God in the Holiest of All, that is, Heaven.  Christ's offering made access to God possible for, not just the Old Testament Saints, but who believe on Christ:


Hebrews 10:15-20
King James Version (KJV)

15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;



Chapter 9 tells us that the way into the Holiest was not manifest while the First Tabernacle (which was a figure, parable of the Realities) was standing. It is Christ's Sacrifice which made entrance to God possible for both the Old Testament Saint (who, when they died, could not come into God's presence, hence they went to Hades to await the Cross) and New Testament Saint.


Continued...
 
Walt said:
Abraham did not have the Holy Spirit indwelling him, and we do.

That too is an indisputable truth which bears heavily on this topic.

We lessen the significance of what New Birth, in my view, when we equate regeneration with what we see in the Old Testament. The Holy Spirit did indeed come upon men and empower them for mighty works, but, we, unlike David, have been told we never have to plead with God not to "take His Spirit from us," because Salvation in Christ is Eternal.


Walt said:
In a technical sense, a "Christian" is a "little Christ" or, more broadly, "a follower of Jesus Christ" -- it is, in  my opinion, sloppy to call Abraham (etc) "Christians" because Christ was not yet given,

Agreed.

The disciples were first called Christians because they followed Christ. They were believers in the Risen Lord, whereas the disciple give us a picture of the understanding men had of Messiah through the revelation given them in the Old Testament.


Walt said:
and how can they be a disciple of One who has not yet come into the world? 

Precisely. But even more important is "how can one be trusting in Christ for their eternal destiny...if the Gospel has not been revealed unto them?"

They can't.


Walt said:
But they WERE believers.

This too is an indisputable Bible Truth.

They had faith in God, and were obedient to the revelation provided to them in their respective Ages. Those who lived prior to the establishment of the Covenant of Law will not be held accountable for that revelation, and those in this Age will be held more accountable if they reject Christ, His Sacrifice, the New Covenant, and the Ministry of the Comforter:


Hebrews 10:26-29
King James Version (KJV)

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?



The "willful sin" of v.26 is rejection of Christ, His Sacrifice, the New Covenant, and the Ministry of the Holy Ghost in this Age.


Walt said:
S.T.Ranger said:
There is much Scripture to consider, and numerous issues that have to be dealt with, so, I ask that only those here who are serious about Biblical Interpretation should join in. This is not a subject that can be threshed out in short responses, but entails covering quite a bit of ground.

Give this some thought before responding, and if you don't mind, please point out if this is a subject you have considered before.

God bless.

This is very close the the Calvinism/Arminian arguments, which I generally avoid.

It actually helps us to put the Calv/Arm dispute to rest, because if they both understood that the natural man does not have the capacity to understand the Gospel in their natural state, and that God does not regenerate men so they can believe, but, that the Comforter enlightens the natural mind to the truth and then men respond, then we would not have the constant bickering and be subject to arguments from both sides which simply lack understanding of some basic truths which you yourself have presented in your response.

While that may sound arrogant, it is simply what Christ taught would happen:


John 16:7-9

King James Version (KJV)

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;



I emphasize the Spirit's convicting ministry towards sin because we see it is...unbelievers He will convict. That is the period of time in which men are provided the truth and it is Sovereign God's intervention which brings the response.  It is not a matter of exercising "free will," any more than you would be exercising free will to acknowledge truth if I ran into your house one night and said, "Walt! Come quick! Your car is on fire!"


Walt said:
I haven't really considered your topic as such, but it doesn't seem to be of prime importance.

And I appreciate you acknowledging this, because I think that often some may get defensive because they haven't really given it much thought, and there is no need for that.

As far as to whether it is important, Regeneration, and a proper understanding is of vital importance, for we know, according to Christ, that no man will see nor enter the Kingdom of God apart from being born again. And I think we need to understand the importance of Christ ministering under Law, as much of His teaching deals directly with the Millennial Kingdom, and is specific to Jews. Doesn't mean that His teaching is irrelevant to us, for we are in that Kingdom which Israel did not then or now know Messiah would establish, but, we do not forget that Prophecy is always fulfilled to the jot and tittle, and that the Kingdom promised Israel will one day be established on this earth (the Millennial Kingdom).

At the end of the Tribulation Christ will return, and will judge those who survive physically. Those who are born again will enter the Kingdom of God promised to Israel in Prophecy. Those who are not born again go into everlasting punishment (though they go into Hades to await the Great White Throne). Those who are born again and die during the Tribulation are raised again, and I believe they are at that time glorified, and this occurs also at the establishment of the Kingdom.

Again, thanks for the response, Walt, and I hope you don't mind the length of some of the responses. I like to get some key points of discussion on the first page for anyone that might want to participate, and separating some of the key points helps members to focus on a specific aspect of the topic. There are several statements in your response that take us to key issues, and it is good that we are in agreement on them, because these are issues that, believe it or not, most will deny (men were not eternally indwelt, men could not be Christians because Christ had not yet come, etc.).


God bless.
 
theophilus said:
S.T.Ranger said:
The simple premise is that the New Birth was promised in the Old Testament (Ezekiel 36:24-27) and is combined, and absolutely cannot be divorced from Eternal Indwelling of God ( I actually had someone recently tell me on one forum that they believed that men could be born again and not eternally indwelt, which, if you argue men were born again prior to Pentecost is one thing, but to hold that view in this Age is another). 
Ezekiel 36 is telling what will happen to the nation of Israel when Christ returns and they finally acknowledge that he is their Messiah. 

This is true, and that will occur when they believe on Christ and receive the Indwelling of God.

Because only those born again will enter into the Kingdom of God (the Millennial Kingdom), and all unbelievers will physically perish when Christ returns, the prophecy "...and so shall all Israel be saved..."


Romans 11:26-27
King James Version (KJV)

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.



So the first question I would pose to you, brother, is "Were the disciples born again while they ministered under Christ," Who was Himself ministering under Law.


theophilus said:
It isn't speaking of the individual rebirth we experience today when we believe in Christ.

So one can be born again apart from the Eternal Indwelling of God?

How then can we say they are "new creatures?"

Here is the distinction between Man's efforts and God's Promises:


Ezekiel 18:31

King James Version (KJV)

31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?



Ezekiel 36:24-27
King James Version (KJV)

24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.



Now, the next question I will ask you is "Can one be born again and not reconciled to God?"

If God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself, then how do we impose a concept of men reconciled to God on an eternal basis when they had not been eternally redeemed and brought into union with God on an eternal basis?


theophilus said:
During the present age regeneration and the baptism of the Holy Spirit always happen at the same time but they are not the same thing.

This is true, we cannot separate the Baptism with the Holy Ghost (immersion into God) from regeneration.

Except in the Old Testament, right? That is what you are doing.

So where do we see men born again in the Old Testament?

I would propose that regeneration is a result of man being reconciled to God, and this through the Eternal Union Christ taught. We know that the disciples of Christ were not indwelt by the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, hence they were not at any time made new. They did not have rivers of living water issuing forth, because they had not received the Spirit of God. The Spirit ministered in and through believers (and unbelievers) under those Economies, but, not one of them was reconciled to God on an eternal basis.


2 Corinthians 5:17-19
King James Version (KJV)

17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.



So the question posed at this time is how can one be made new if he is not reconciled to God?

Continued...

 
theophilus said:
It is only during the present church age that we are baptized into the body of Christ. 

This is true, an indisputable fact.

The question is...what does it mean to be "Baptized with the Holy Ghost?"

We don't have to wonder, for both John and Christ define it for us:


Matthew 3:11-12
King James Version (KJV)

11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.


In view is what Christ will do at a future time, and it is speaking of the Judgment of Christ. There are two options laid to those whom John rebukes, Eternal Life (depicted in terms of Christ gathering His Wheat (believers)) and Eternal Judgment (depicted by chaff being burned with unquenchable fire, familiar terminology the Lord uses to describe eternal judgment).

Those who try to impose a "baptism with fire" as something applicable to Christians, rather than the contrast it is (of eternal judgment), overlook John's definition of what he says, as well as the fact that we see no mention of fire in Luke:


Luke 3:15-17
King James Version (KJV)

15 And as the people were in expectation, and all men mused in their hearts of John, whether he were the Christ, or not;

16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

17 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.


Now, lets see the Lord Himself define the Baptism with the Holy Ghost:



Acts 1:4-5
King James Version (KJV)

4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.



He defines it as "the Promise of the Father," which, He saith...they had heard of Him.

So what did Christ teach that can be related to the Promise of the Father? John 14-16 stands out. Well, The Lord goes on to further define this...


Acts 1:7-8
King James Version (KJV)

7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.



While most view the Baptism with the Holy Ghost as an "empowering," a few things I would point out would be...

1. The Spirit of God has always empowered men;

2. That does not fit with the text, or concept, because in view is something that has never happened before;

3. "Receiving power" is what happens after the Holy Ghost comes upon them;

4. They had been been empowered to preach before;

5. Viewing "empowerment" as being in view conflicts with John's prophecy in that the Baptism with the Holy Ghost does not speak of what men will do, but what Christ will do (baptize with the Holy Ghost;

6. The Eternal Indwelling of God is yet imminent, it has not happened, and that this is the Promise of the Father in view, and that this is the teaching Christ refers to in v.5 fits not just this passage but the majority of passages dealing with salvation in Christ.


theophilus said:
All who are saved during this age, all who were saved before Pentecost, and all who will be saved after the rapture of the church are regenerated.

How can one be born again when we are born again by the Blood of Christ and His Resurrection?


1 Peter 1
King James Version (KJV)

2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,



How does beget again unto a living hope by the Resurrection of Christ...before the Resurrection?

Secondly, brother, how does God beget again by the Gospel which was not revealed in the Age of Law (nor any Age prior to it)?


1 Peter 1:22-23
King James Version (KJV)

22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.



That the Gospel of Jesus Christ is specific to Regeneration is made clear:


1 Peter 1:9-12
King James Version (KJV)

9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.



While one might point to the Spirit of Christ being in them, what we have to do to equate that with Eternal Indwelling as promised by the Father and taught of by Christ is...

1. Ignore that Eternal Indwelling did not begin until after Christ returned to Heaven and sent the Comforter;

2. Ignore that the Prophets ministered unto us the "grace that should come;"

3. That the Prophecy testified of "the glory that should follow (the suffering of Christ);"

4. That those preaching the Gospel do so "with the Holy Ghost sent down from Heaven (the Comforter Christ taught them of, which was promised by the Father (Ezekiel 36:27).


So all I would ask, brother, is that you look at the reasons why we would not view men to have been born again prior to the fulfillment of the promises of God (which Israel will benefit from when they too, nationally, come under the New Covenant) and to address those issues.


God bless.
 
This is where many Dispensationalists overstate themselves to maintain a discontinuity. Unfortunately, Scofield had created some confusion on this.

I believe that...
... if the OT saint was totally depraved (and he was)...
... if the OT saint needed a miraculous intervention and given a new heart (and he was)...

... then Jesus is correct in saying that a person (without distinction) must be regenerated by the Spirit.

Jesus said, John 3:5-8 "5Jesus answered, ?Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ?Youc must be born again.? 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.?
 
FSSL said:
This is where many Dispensationalists overstate themselves to maintain a discontinuity. Unfortunately, Scofield had created some confusion on this.

I believe that...
... if the OT saint was totally depraved (and he was)...
... if the OT saint needed a miraculous intervention and given a new heart (and he was)...

... then Jesus is correct in saying that a person (without distinction) must be regenerated by the Spirit.

Jesus said, John 3:5-8 "5Jesus answered, ?Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ?Youc must be born again.? 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.?

Nice to believe, but it just ain't so.

No OT believer was spiritually circumcised.
 
Jesus is speaking to an OT person.

According to Dispensationalism, Nicodemus is not NT.
 
FSSL said:
This is where many Dispensationalists overstate themselves to maintain a discontinuity. Unfortunately, Scofield had created some confusion on this.

I believe that...
... if the OT saint was totally depraved (and he was)...
... if the OT saint needed a miraculous intervention and given a new heart (and he was)...

... then Jesus is correct in saying that a person (without distinction) must be regenerated by the Spirit.

Jesus said, John 3:5-8 "5Jesus answered, ?Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ?Youc must be born again.? 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.?

Thank you for the response, FSSL, and this is probably the only argument that those who believe men were born again before Pentecost have to offer ("If the Lord told Nicodemus he must be born again it must have been possible.).

However, the Lord also told the people they must believe on Him, and we see that not one person was believing on the resurrected Lord (see previous posts, this is addressed in detail).

The primary point I would raise, in hopes that a conversation might be started, is that Reconciliation was accomplished by Christ through His Work. We see numerous promises and teachings concerning the coming of the Holy Ghost (the distinctly different ministry He would perform when He came as Comforter after Christ's return to Heaven) which makes it impossible to have men receiving the Spirit that was promised, which leads to the conclusion that if men were inf act born again before Pentecost, then we have two classes of Christians/believers, those who are immersed into God in eternal union, and those...simply born again.

Regeneration is not possible apart from our being in God in eternal union, which Christ teaches concerning in John 14 extensively. He makes it clear that their/our union with God was a future event, and in that day He would be in the Father, and we in Him, and He in us. This union is why we are "new creatures."

But, in regards to the terminology of John 3, which I am sure you are more than familiar with, we see that the Lord stipulates men being born of water (the Word of God, specifically the Gospel, for that is how we are born again) and of the Spirit. Being born "from above" is the equivalent of being born of God as taught in John 1, so I would suggest we have the Lord teaching the same event in John 3 as we see described by John in Chapter One:


John 1:11-13
King James Version (KJV)

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.



The "power to become the sons of God" is linked to the Incarnation, which is another indication that regeneration did not take place prior to Christ's coming. And when we consider the statements of Christ and the Apostles, it is hard to support a dichotomy among believers in which we have those who are born again yet not in eternal union with God, or, those who are born again yet un-redeemed. Christ redeemed the Old Testament saints through His death:


Hebrews 9:12-15
King James Version (KJV)

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.



Redemption was but a promise in the Old Testament, accomplished by Christ through His Work, which included His death, burial, resurrection, and ascension (return to Heaven). While the Spirit was with the disciples, He was not in them (in eternal union, as He would be when He was sent (in the specific Ministry of Comforter)). While the disciples believed in the capacity given them, within the Revelation provided them, not one of them was believing in Christ as the Risen Savior, for their expectations were physical, which is the understanding they had from the Revelation the Old Testament provided.

Yes, the Lord told Nicodemus he must be born again, but, He also told everyone they must believe on Him, to which...we have not the first person we can present from Scripture that understood that the Kingdom Christ would establish was not physical, but spiritual and Eternal.

Consider Peter denying the Gospel of Jesus Christ (which must be distinguished from "the Gospel of the Kingdom," which was the good news within the framework of the Law and the current revelation provided men):


Matthew 16:20-23

King James Version (KJV)

20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.




Peter goes on to try to keep the Lord from the Cross with a sword, because he had expectation of a physical kingdom. He would then go on to deny he even knew the Lord, fulfilling prophecy that the sheep would be scattered. Then, after the Lord rises, he (nor the other ten disciples) does not believe:


Mark 16:9-14
King James Version (KJV)

9 Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.

10 And she went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept.

11 And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not.

12 After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.

13 And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them.

14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.



Were they believers? Yes, according to the capacity given them within the framework of revelation provided. Saved? Yes, for their eternal destiny, being justified by God through faith, was just as secure as yours or mine.

But born again? New Creatures? No.

The new creature is the result of immersion into God, or, the Baptism with the Holy Ghost. The Church began at Pentecost, made up of men who believed the Gospel which was sent down from Heaven, which coincides with the coming of the Comforter. Men were justified by grace through faith in the Old Testament, but, apart from eternal redemption and through physical means (sacrificial system established in the Garden). We see them mentioned in Chapter Eleven of Hebrews, and are told they died in faith, not receiving the promise/s, that they should not be made perfect/complete (which deals with Remission of Sins, a key factor in Redemption) without us (those of us in relationship with God through the New Covenant). In Chapter Twelve we see the Church distinguished from the "spirits of just men made perfect," who are the Old Testament Saints who were made perfect after death, as contrasted with our being made perfect at salvation upon confession of Christ.

Okay sorry, didn't mean to go on so long, but, it's a favorite topic of mine, lol, so I can get long-winded.

God bless.




 
Twisted said:
FSSL said:
This is where many Dispensationalists overstate themselves to maintain a discontinuity. Unfortunately, Scofield had created some confusion on this.

I believe that...
... if the OT saint was totally depraved (and he was)...
... if the OT saint needed a miraculous intervention and given a new heart (and he was)...

... then Jesus is correct in saying that a person (without distinction) must be regenerated by the Spirit.

Jesus said, John 3:5-8 "5Jesus answered, ?Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ?Youc must be born again.? 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.?

Nice to believe, but it just ain't so.

No OT believer was spiritually circumcised.

This is true. The Old Testament Economies provided physical provision which is often contrasted with the spiritual and Eternal provision afforded us through Christ. Manna, for example, yields to the True Bread, the Living Bread, which alone can provide eternal life.

Another contrast I think few recognize is "the True Vine." The question I would pose to this Forum is, what is the Vine that is not the True Vine?


God bless.
 
S.T.Ranger said:
Thank you for the response, FSSL, and this is probably the only argument that those who believe men were born again before Pentecost have to offer ("If the Lord told Nicodemus he must be born again it must have been possible.).

Not my only argument, but I chose to start here. Since this was before Pentecost/Matthew 16/Matthew 28 (wherever the brand of Dispensationalist believes is the start of the new economy called the "Church Age" or "Age of Grace"), it is a valid point. The offer to be "born again" and the "Spirit begetting a spirit" was given and rejected BEFORE any of the Dispensationalist timeframes.

There is more from the OT that I can get into, but for now, I am getting somewhat confused by this discussion. That is why I am not dealing with everything you posit in the post above. It is too lengthy and meandering for me to deal with.

For this reason, I am going to deal with only one issue at a time.

Were they believers? Yes, according to the capacity given them within the framework of revelation provided. Saved? Yes, for their eternal destiny, being justified by God through faith, was just as secure as yours or mine.

But born again? New Creatures? No.

Your point is that the OT saint can have Salvation without Regeneration. Since Regeneration involves a 100% new spiritual person, I cannot understand why you think the OT person was not regenerated.

"Born again" was a common concept during the time of Christ. It was used throughout secular society. Jesus took the common phrase and gave it a spiritual significance. So, no. We would not expect to see it in the OT because it was not a Hebraism. That does not mean that regeneration did not occur in the OT.

*** as a reference point, I am a Dispensationalist.
 
FSSL said:
S.T.Ranger said:
Thank you for the response, FSSL, and this is probably the only argument that those who believe men were born again before Pentecost have to offer ("If the Lord told Nicodemus he must be born again it must have been possible.).

Not my only argument, but I chose to start here. Since this was before Pentecost/Matthew 16/Matthew 28 (wherever the brand of Dispensationalist believes is the start of the new economy called the "Church Age" or "Age of Grace"), it is a valid point.

I will be glad to see other arguments, that should make the discussion more enjoyable.


FSSL said:
The offer to be "born again" and the "Spirit begetting a spirit" was given and rejected BEFORE any of the Dispensationalist timeframes.

The promise of new birth was given, this is true, but, as Hebrews 11 makes it clear, the Old Testament Saints received not the promises.

We see a contrast between the Promise and the required/demanded obedience in these two passages:


Conditions then...


Ezekiel 18:30-32

King James Version (KJV)

30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord God. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.

31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord God: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.


Conditions of the Promise...


Ezekiel 36:24-27
King James Version (KJV)

24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.


"You must!" becomes "I will..."


FSSL said:
There is more from the OT that I can get into, but for now, I am getting somewhat confused by this discussion.

If you have the time, perhaps a read of the earlier posts. They were given for reference, though they seem long. This is not an issue that can be settled quickly, and I would suggest that while there are a few arguments for regeneration prior to Pentecost, this still leaves addressing the many arguments and points which correlate eternal union with God with salvation and regeneration. In other words, under New Covenant conditions, we cannot have salvation apart from regeneration, or, the individual immersed into GOd in eternal union.

We do see that in the Old Testament, where men did not receive the promised Spirit (until after Christ was glorified (returned to Heaven, John 17:1-5)), nor did they receive Remission of sins on an eternal basis, whereby they were eternal redeemed of Christ.


FSSL said:
That is why I am not dealing with everything you posit in the post above. It is too lengthy and meandering for me to deal with.

I will break this one up into two segments to make it a little easier to view.

FSSL said:
For this reason, I am going to deal with only one issue at a time.

That sounds good. Just let me know which issue you would like to look at. I actually prefer threshing out each point individually.


Continued...

 
FSSL said:
Were they believers? Yes, according to the capacity given them within the framework of revelation provided. Saved? Yes, for their eternal destiny, being justified by God through faith, was just as secure as yours or mine.

But born again? New Creatures? No.

Your point is that the OT saint can have Salvation without Regeneration.

Not salvation according to New Covenant conditions, no, because we have to see the Old Testament Saint not only receive the promise of the Spirit, but the promise of remission of sins on an eternal basis.

Saved, as I said, from an eternal perspective in which due to being justified by grace through faith, the penalty for sin they died still owing was not exacted, but, grace was given them (which is why the Just went to Hades rather than Heaven prior to the Cross).

I would suggest to you that both James and Paul speak of the same justification, which was a result of what Abraham did. That should not be equated to being Justified by the Blood of Christ.

So when the Old Testament Saint died, their eternal destiny had been secured through faith in God, but, until their sins were atoned for they were not reconciled to God. Remember, God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself, which sets a point in time for Reconciliation. Just as John, in the First Chapter, sets a point in time when men were given the power to become the sons of God, which is defined as being born of God, which is what the Lord is speaking of in John 3 when He states men must be born of water and Spirit, and born from above, and born again.


FSSL said:
Since Regeneration involves a 100% new spiritual person, I cannot understand why you think the OT person was not regenerated.

We might have separate views on what it means to be a new creature. I do not take the view that at regeneration we are either spiritually remade or become spiritually adept. We are, as birth implies, newborn babes...in the spiritual. How we are "new" is that unlike our former condition, which was one of separation from God in terms of spiritual and eternal relationship (not yet reconciled), we are now immersed into God (He in us and we in Him, as Christ teaches in John 14 (which was future event for the disciples)). Just as God promised that He would put His Spirit within us that we might walk in His statutes and keep His judgments, even so that is why we are "new."

It is a spiritual resurrection of that which was dead.

Secondly, we have a new heart and a new spirit in the sense of our attitudes towards God. Whereas before we were blind to the spiritual things of God, now having understanding through our Teacher, the Comforter, our outlook on life has drastically changed. But, to be clear, that outlook is not regeneration, it is a result of regeneration, which is the result of being placed in Christ. Most people view being born again as a "turning over of a new leaf," so to speak. THis is true, let's just not confuse that with the spiritual resurrection that regeneration is.

Lastly, we know that the Old Testament Saint did not receive the benefits established by Christ when He established the New Covenant. To try to impose reception of, for example, "The True Bread from Heaven" simply conflicts with Prophecy and fulfillment of Prophecy. To try to impose a condition on the Old Testament Saint in which they died having received the promises also conflicts with numerous passages.

No Old Testament Saint was made alive through Christ until Christ actually came and established the basis for Eternal Redemption, which was established through His Blood (Death).

Okay, will make it three segments, lol.


Continued...

 
FSSL said:
"Born again" was a common concept during the time of Christ. It was used throughout secular society.

I don't see that as being significant, because we wouldn't equate the Lord's teaching with a secular concept. No matter what people understood "being born again" to mean, it doesn't nullify Christ's, John's, Paul's, Peter's, or James' defining of the Biblical Doctrine.

And what we conclude when we place all of their teachings together is that Regeneration is being born of God through reception of Christ and the Gospel. And the Gospel was a Mystery not revealed to Saints in past Ages, so it is not likely men were trusting in Christ and being born again. A few passages that make that statement:



Romans 16:24-26

King James Version (KJV)

24 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:



Colossians 1:25-27
King James Version (KJV)

25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:


Now this second passage has a context of Gentile Inclusion, but, we still cannot nullify that the Mystery of the Gospel of Christ was hid from Ages and Generations past. And the Mystery is centered on the Indwelling of Christ in the believer. Again, Regeneration cannot be separated from the Eternal Indwelling of God in believers which did not begin Prior to the Promised Spirit being sent, which occurred on the Day of Pentecost. We know it had not happened, and could not happen until Christ returned to Heaven, which is seen in Acts 1:4-5, where the Lord states the disciples will be Baptized in the Holy Ghost not many days hence. While most, whether Charismatic, Evangelical, Catholic, or Protestant, define the Baptism with the Holy Ghost as an "empowerment," John the Baptist defines it as the difference between eternal salvation and eternal judgment:


Matthew 3:11-12
King James Version (KJV)

11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.


And forget I said anything about segments, lol, I will just post these as separate points for you to consider.


Continued...
 
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