So take me through the process

[RAIDER]

The majority of us on here attended HAC.  Most of us graduated from HAC.  I would dare say that most of us attended or worked in an IFB church after graduation.  Now..................there are a few on here that no longer attend an IFB church.  Fish is the first one that comes to my mind, but I know there are others.

Here is the topic for this thread.  Take us through the process that took you to the non IFB church of which you are now a part.  I will go out on a limb and say that you would have never attended the church you are now at immediately after you left HAC.  What happened?  How uncomfortable were you with the music the first time you attended?  Did it initially bother you when a different version of the Bible was used?  Obviously it is a night and day difference from that to which you were accustomed.  Take us through the process.     

 

[Teri in NC]

This is a great thread!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[fishinnut]

The majority of us on here attended HAC.  Most of us graduated from HAC.  I would dare say that most of us attended or worked in an IFB church after graduation.  Now..................there are a few on here that no longer attend an IFB church.  Fish is the first one that comes to my mind, but I know there are others.

Here is the topic for this thread.  Take us through the process that took you to the non IFB church of which you are now a part.  I will go out on a limb and say that you would have never attended the church you are now at immediately after you left HAC.  What happened?  How uncomfortable were you with the music the first time you attended?  Did it initially bother you when a different version of the Bible was used?  Obviously it is a night and day difference from that to which you were accustomed.  Take us through the process.   

My story would be too long so I will let this song tell the tale......
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7LkUyj7Ltc

 

[RAIDER]

The majority of us on here attended HAC.  Most of us graduated from HAC.  I would dare say that most of us attended or worked in an IFB church after graduation.  Now..................there are a few on here that no longer attend an IFB church.  Fish is the first one that comes to my mind, but I know there are others.

Here is the topic for this thread.  Take us through the process that took you to the non IFB church of which you are now a part.  I will go out on a limb and say that you would have never attended the church you are now at immediately after you left HAC.  What happened?  How uncomfortable were you with the music the first time you attended?  Did it initially bother you when a different version of the Bible was used?  Obviously it is a night and day difference from that to which you were accustomed.  Take us through the process.   

My story would be too long so I will let this song tell the tale......
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7LkUyj7Ltc

We need your story.  Spread it over several posts if needed.

 

[Thomas Cassidy]

Take us through the process.   

I am not a HAC alum of any sort but I have been on a similar journey.

I was saved in an IFB church.
I was baptized in an IFB church.
I was married in an IFB church.
I was educated in an IFB seminary.
I pastored an IFB church.
I taught at an IFB college.
I taught at an IFB seminary.

I am now a member of and serve in a Southern Baptist Church in the far far south of Texas.

How did I get here? I retired several years ago and chose the Rio Grande Valley as our place of retirement. We bought a home and made the move. Then we started looking for an IFB church to attend. There is only one in the Valley and the pastor is a nut job like you have never met before.

So we checked out the SBC church and discovered a church that was as conservative, or even more conservative, than most IFB churches we knew of in southern California where we spent the last 35 years of our ministry.

I will go out on a limb and say that you would have never attended the church you are now at immediately after you left HAC.

You are correct (even though I didn't attend HAC). But remember my age. I graduated from college in 1968. The SBC was wallowing in Theological Liberalism (Modernism) and the Conservative Resurgence did not begin until 1979 and did not bear sufficient fruit to gain control of the Seminaries until 1990, so to me at that time the SBC was anathema. But that is no longer the case. The SBC churches here in the south of Texas are as conservative or more conservative than the IFB churches I was accustomed to in California.

You ask

How uncomfortable were you with the music the first time you attended?

The music was largely the same, with a few contemporary choruses thrown in. I am not a great fan of contemporary music but neither do I think my not liking it means it is a sin. God uses different means to reach different people. 

Did it initially bother you when a different version of the Bible was used?

No. I still use my trusty old KJV, but don't think it was reinspired in 1611. I do believe the underlying texts are superior to the texts that underlie so many of the later versions, but the differences are not enough to put me entirely off.

Obviously it is a night and day difference from that to which you were accustomed.

Not really. We have to look hard to find any differences. And even when we find one it is so minute as to be irrelevant.

 

[RAIDER]

Take us through the process.   

I am not a HAC alum of any sort but I have been on a similar journey.

I was saved in an IFB church.
I was baptized in an IFB church.
I was married in an IFB church.
I was educated in an IFB seminary.
I pastored an IFB church.
I taught at an IFB college.
I taught at an IFB seminary.

I am now a member of and serve in a Southern Baptist Church in the far far south of Texas.

How did I get here? I retired several years ago and chose the Rio Grande Valley as our place of retirement. We bought a home and made the move. Then we started looking for an IFB church to attend. There is only one in the Valley and the pastor is a nut job like you have never met before.

So we checked out the SBC church and discovered a church that was as conservative, or even more conservative, than most IFB churches we knew of in southern California where we spent the last 35 years of our ministry.

I will go out on a limb and say that you would have never attended the church you are now at immediately after you left HAC.

You are correct (even though I didn't attend HAC). But remember my age. I graduated from college in 1968. The SBC was wallowing in Theological Liberalism (Modernism) and the Conservative Resurgence did not begin until 1979 and did not bear sufficient fruit to gain control of the Seminaries until 1990, so to me at that time the SBC was anathema. But that is no longer the case. The SBC churches here in the south of Texas are as conservative or more conservative than the IFB churches I was accustomed to in California.

You ask

How uncomfortable were you with the music the first time you attended?

The music was largely the same, with a few contemporary choruses thrown in. I am not a great fan of contemporary music but neither do I think my not liking it means it is a sin. God uses different means to reach different people. 

Did it initially bother you when a different version of the Bible was used?

No. I still use my trusty old KJV, but don't think it was reinspired in 1611. I do believe the underlying texts are superior to the texts that underlie so many of the later versions, but the differences are not enough to put me entirely off.

Obviously it is a night and day difference from that to which you were accustomed.

Not really. We have to look hard to find any differences. And even when we find one it is so minute as to be irrelevant.

Thank you!

 

[Thomas Cassidy]

Thank you!

You're welcome.

 

[fishinnut]

The majority of us on here attended HAC.  Most of us graduated from HAC.  I would dare say that most of us attended or worked in an IFB church after graduation.  Now..................there are a few on here that no longer attend an IFB church.  Fish is the first one that comes to my mind, but I know there are others.

Here is the topic for this thread.  Take us through the process that took you to the non IFB church of which you are now a part.  I will go out on a limb and say that you would have never attended the church you are now at immediately after you left HAC.  What happened?  How uncomfortable were you with the music the first time you attended?  Did it initially bother you when a different version of the Bible was used?  Obviously it is a night and day difference from that to which you were accustomed.  Take us through the process.   

I grew up in a IFB church.............but not the super separated HAC type. All of my Christian friends listened to WLS & WCFL rock stations during the 60's & early 70's. Music in our church & most like churches of my friends used conservative hymns. I was into the Jesus movement music before going off to the Marines. It was in another state where I was stationed that I was invited to, joined, became very active, started preaching & surrendered to preach in a more separated IFB church. I left there & went straight to HAC.

To say that I was caught up in the flow of JH style IFB while at HAC would be an understatement. My first ministry job was in a very conservative IFB church in a northern state for a year. I was asked (I found out years later tricked into) to be an assistant pastor for a HACker who finished 2 years before I did about 100 miles away.  He got JH's sermon cassettes each week in the mail & preached most of them ( that I also found out years later).

I spent years in IFB ministry as a pastor & an evangelist towing the HAC & IFB lines.  Though a series of  conversations with inner circle people at FBCH,  Miller Rd BC, I finally found out about the stuff under the Hyles/HAC carpet.

When I told some close HAC friends in the church I was pastoring...........they left after consulting with another HACker friend in my town who I had worked in ministry with for years & who spread all kinds of lies about me. I got told off in stores by folks who had previously been my friends. My house & vehicles were vandalized & shots were fired  at our house from the street in front of the house during the night scaring the fire out of my family.

I stayed in IFB churches for another dozen years as a layman & it was then that I decided after wearing dress clothes to church most of my life that I was done with it & began wearing casual clothes to church, even as a SS teacher. It was during those years that my kids who were attending Christian colleges began to challenge me with new CCM music. I loved much of it & they were shocked. I was tired of the same hymns done the same way for services & choir music that I had experienced most of my life to that point. IFB church music for me was in a rut.

When my pastor decided to leave our church he railroaded his HACker assistant in as the pastor.  We left that IFB church & that control nutcase & were invited to a non-dom church pastored by a Liberty grad. The music was all CCM & that church was a singing church & the dress was casual. My wife was hired as a secretary for one of the pastors. Five years in the pastor & his exec-pastor called 3 ladies on staff in & fired them for no reason......but they were each over 55 years of age. My wife came home with a nondisclosure agreement that stated she could not say anything about their time on staff and if so there was the threat of being taken to court & sued. I told her to tell our pastor she was not going to sign. We left there. The next week they hired replacements for the 3 positions with 20-something chicks.

Two of our 3 kids were helping with a church plant in the big city near us. We visited several churches but decided to make the drive (and still do) to be part of the no-dom ministry our kids were part of starting. We attend faithfully & participate in some but not all of the programs. The church is running in the thousands now. The music program is a big part of the ministry but I must say, they too are in a rut. Same sound, same songs done week after week at the same volume by different singers & band members each week.  The dress is casual & I laugh at the staff & those on the platform for doing all they can to follow the fashion trends & attempting to be "cool". JH's old line comes to my mind when he would say, "I've heard that the word cool means, NOT SO HOT." When I see them at weddings they have such a hard time dressing up & looking right......including the pastor. The man is a good communicator with a decent handle on the Bible, but separation is not a suit he is comfortable in wearing. His boat.........and he has to float it. I'll float mine & fish off of it for men & for as many bass as I can land.

My super separated IFB days are over the horizon and in the rearview mirror of my life. My wife & I while on this journey decided to make what the Bible teaches our guidebook, verses all the HAC/IFB made-man rules & so-called standards & convictions, our standards for how we would live out the Christian life. We wanted to place an emphasis on what Jesus NOT any preacher or group of them emphasised. Of those people that turned against me, lied & purposely tried to hurt my ministry, few of them, even years down the road, have made things right with me but I have forgiven them. Many of them are shipwrecked morally. My family is still living all out for Jesus, still in church and we, to this point have not lost them. 

 

[Sherryh]

great thread

 

[Walt]

I agree that this is a great idea for a thread.

I suspect that many people have been wounded in their soul or spirit in IFB churches and have, like a pendulum, "over-corrected" to escape the evils they saw.

I've seen many, many cases of this...

I'm thinking of couple of families which were raised in a church pastored by a HAC grad; a high-standards, soul-winning church. But, the pastor followed the erroneous leadership principles he learned at HAC. When a family member let a little too much honesty come out about how things were done, they were preached against (in all but name). One family stuck it out, but eventually left and went to a church with much lower standards. In another family, two of the kids pay lip service to church, but are no longer interested; another has  joined a more liberal church.  One child remains faithful to the "old paths".

We also attend a different church these days: the church believes in the hair standards and dress standards, but they are not preached on: the staff believe that the changes wrought by the Holy Spirit will be permanent, and would rather have Him transform them instead of merely making people conform to some rules put out by the leadership.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

The majority of us on here attended HAC.  Most of us graduated from HAC.  I would dare say that most of us attended or worked in an IFB church after graduation.  Now..................there are a few on here that no longer attend an IFB church.  Fish is the first one that comes to my mind, but I know there are others.

Here is the topic for this thread.  Take us through the process that took you to the non IFB church of which you are now a part.  I will go out on a limb and say that you would have never attended the church you are now at immediately after you left HAC.  What happened?  How uncomfortable were you with the music the first time you attended?  Did it initially bother you when a different version of the Bible was used?  Obviously it is a night and day difference from that to which you were accustomed.  Take us through the process.   

I grew up in a IFB church.............but not the super separated HAC type. All of my Christian friends listened to WLS & WCFL rock stations during the 60's & early 70's. Music in our church & most like churches of my friends used conservative hymns. I was into the Jesus movement music before going off to the Marines. It was in another state where I was stationed that I was invited to, joined, became very active, started preaching & surrendered to preach in a more separated IFB church. I left there & went straight to HAC.

To say that I was caught up in the flow of JH style IFB while at HAC would be an understatement. My first ministry job was in a very conservative IFB church in a northern state for a year. I was asked (I found out years later tricked into) to be an assistant pastor for a HACker who finished 2 years before I did about 100 miles away.  He got JH's sermon cassettes each week in the mail & preached most of them ( that I also found out years later).

I spent years in IFB ministry as a pastor & an evangelist towing the HAC & IFB lines.  Though a series of  conversations with inner circle people at FBCH,  Miller Rd BC, I finally found out about the stuff under the Hyles/HAC carpet.

When I told some close HAC friends in the church I was pastoring...........they left after consulting with another HACker friend in my town who I had worked in ministry with for years & who spread all kinds of lies about me. I got told off in stores by folks who had previously been my friends. My house & vehicles were vandalized & shots were fired  at our house from the street in front of the house during the night scaring the fire out of my family.

I stayed in IFB churches for another dozen years as a layman & it was then that I decided after wearing dress clothes to church most of my life that I was done with it & began wearing casual clothes to church, even as a SS teacher. It was during those years that my kids who were attending Christian colleges began to challenge me with new CCM music. I loved much of it & they were shocked. I was tired of the same hymns done the same way for services & choir music that I had experienced most of my life to that point. IFB church music for me was in a rut.

When my pastor decided to leave our church he railroaded his HACker assistant in as the pastor.  We left that IFB church & that control nutcase & were invited to a non-dom church pastored by a Liberty grad. The music was all CCM & that church was a singing church & the dress was casual. My wife was hired as a secretary for one of the pastors. Five years in the pastor & his exec-pastor called 3 ladies on staff in & fired them for no reason......but they were each over 55 years of age. My wife came home with a nondisclosure agreement that stated she could not say anything about their time on staff and if so there was the threat of being taken to court & sued. I told her to tell our pastor she was not going to sign. We left there. The next week they hired replacements for the 3 positions with 20-something chicks.

Two of our 3 kids were helping with a church plant in the big city near us. We visited several churches but decided to make the drive (and still do) to be part of the no-dom ministry our kids were part of starting. We attend faithfully & participate in some but not all of the programs. The church is running in the thousands now. The music program is a big part of the ministry but I must say, they too are in a rut. Same sound, same songs done week after week at the same volume by different singers & band members each week.  The dress is casual & I laugh at the staff & those on the platform for doing all they can to follow the fashion trends & attempting to be "cool". JH's old line comes to my mind when he would say, "I've heard that the word cool means, NOT SO HOT." When I see them at weddings they have such a hard time dressing up & looking right......including the pastor. The man is a good communicator with a decent handle on the Bible, but separation is not a suit he is comfortable in wearing. His boat.........and he has to float it. I'll float mine & fish off of it for men & for as many bass as I can land.

My super separated IFB days are over the horizon and in the rearview mirror of my life. My wife & I while on this journey decided to make what the Bible teaches our guidebook, verses all the HAC/IFB made-man rules & so-called standards & convictions, our standards for how we would live out the Christian life. We wanted to place an emphasis on what Jesus NOT any preacher or group of them emphasised. Of those people that turned against me, lied & purposely tried to hurt my ministry, few of them, even years down the road, have made things right with me but I have forgiven them. Many of them are shipwrecked morally. My family is still living all out for Jesus, still in church and we, to this point have not lost them.

Our path's were somewhat similar...I too was spared being raised in the super separated IFB wing.
The difference is that I was influenced by Falwell and Liberty rather than your HAC experience.
I also appreciate your clear balanced view of your current church and Pastor.
I have found that the best balance in ministry is in the SBC.
Far from perfect, but much better than continuing to follow the 'Old Path's' that are leading to the extinction of a movement. IMO, of course...

 

[4everfsu]

I was raised and saved in a baptist church, not sure if it was SBC at the age of 7. At this point it does not matter. Later my family attended a baptist church led by Cotton Nelms, great man of God who loved people. He left and church voted in nut job from BBC who was pastor of some church somewhere. His goal was to be the Jack Hyles South. He believed in 2nd degree seperation, if they do not cross  their i's or cross their t's like us they will be no fellowship. Sword of the Lord and JH was big at our church. Women could not wear pants. Also if he did not get money raised during church service for his pet project he would not dismiss church until enough men pledged what he wanted.

BTW anyone preaching touch not God anointed would make laugh out loud in church, that is if I went to church. BTW I have been maybe once to church in the last 10 yrs. Never plan on attending unless I am in TB's neck of the woods.

I did not attend HAC, attended BJU and graduated from LBC(now Liberty U) in 1975 one year after TB. Jerry Falwell to me was the model pastor I have to admit. Other then Pastor Hart of the Latin American Baptist Church, and Cotton Nelms and a missionary name Scotty Drake, and TB those are the only men of God I trust today.

 

[Jo]

After I graduated from HAC, pretty much everything bothered me. I sort of went through a desensitization period. One night, I finally decided to write down what I truly believed. What was preference and what was conviction? It helped clear my head.

I met people who would often say that IFB churches were legalistic, and I didn't understand that at first. Then, it made total sense to me.  I met people who would quote the verse about "priesthood of the believer", and I thought they were barking up the wrong tree, until it made total sense to me.

I thirsted for more than what the IFB had to offer.  I kept hearing the same sermons, the same songs over and over. I was so thirsty to hear more about God's word, to meet new people that were different, hear new songs that filled my soul.

I have visited a couple of IFB churches in the last few months. I almost joined one in my area because they seemed to have a good ministry, but then the pastor preached on and on.....saying the same old thing I've always heard.  I can't join an IFB again.

Also, the Dave Hyles/Miller Road thing happened around the same time I was searching.  Of course, I later learned about Joe Combs, etc. For me, it was all one jumbled mess.  I met some wonderful people at the IFB church I attended after graduation, but my closest friends no longer attend IFB either. They have moved on and found joy in the churches they presently attend, and they are still in love with the Savior.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

The majority of us on here attended HAC.  Most of us graduated from HAC.  I would dare say that most of us attended or worked in an IFB church after graduation.  Now..................there are a few on here that no longer attend an IFB church.  Fish is the first one that comes to my mind, but I know there are others.

Here is the topic for this thread.  Take us through the process that took you to the non IFB church of which you are now a part.  I will go out on a limb and say that you would have never attended the church you are now at immediately after you left HAC.  What happened?  How uncomfortable were you with the music the first time you attended?  Did it initially bother you when a different version of the Bible was used?  Obviously it is a night and day difference from that to which you were accustomed.  Take us through the process.   

Thank you for asking, but you really don't want to know.

I will say this: I will never stop evolving until I stop learning; not just learning what is or isn't "biblical truth" but learning about the stories and hurts of the victimized, marginalized and those scared into silence.

Even though I attend a Baptist church (a new church plant started by a former Methodist pastor), I no longer consider myself an Evangelical, much less a Fundamentalist.

Anyway, the journey of over 50 years still isn't over.

 

[Thomas Cassidy]

I no longer consider myself an Evangelical, much less a Fundamentalist.

My understanding is that among orthodox Christendom there are two different positions. Evangelical and Sacerdotalistic Sacramentarians.

The difference, as I understand it, is that the former believes a person must have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and the latter believes the church has the relationship and church membership places the parishioner into a confessional relationship via the sacraments officiated by the priestly or clergy class.

The only exceptions to these two, as far as I know, are the cults such as JWs and Mormons, etc.

So, if you are "none of the above" what are you?

 

[Smellin Coffee]

I no longer consider myself an Evangelical, much less a Fundamentalist.

My understand is that among orthodox Christendom there are two different position. Evangelical and Sacerdotalistic Sacramentarians.

The difference, as I understand it, is that the former believes a person must have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and the latter believes the church has the relationship and church membership places the parishioner into a confessional relationship via the sacraments officiated by the priestly or clergy class.

The only exceptions to these two, as far as I know, are the cults such as JWs and Mormons, etc.

So, if you are "none of the above" what are you?

I believe I am a victim of grace who tries (and yet fails) to follow the recorded teachings of Jesus, who believes Paul's writings are not verbally inspired and sees American Evangelicalism as behaviorally in opposition to much of what Christ taught.

I have no idea what JWs and Mormons teach about such things.

 

[Thomas Cassidy]

I believe I am a victim of grace who tries (and yet fails) to follow the recorded teachings of Jesus,

That would be all of us.

who believes Paul's writings are not verbally inspired

Okay, ALL scripture is NOT given by Inspiration of God?

and sees American Evangelicalism as behaviorally in opposition to much of what Christ taught.

So you believe you hold the moral high ground which enables you to judge all the rest of us?

Which of my behaviors do you believe are in opposition to what Christ taught? Please be specific.

Thank you.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

I believe I am a victim of grace who tries (and yet fails) to follow the recorded teachings of Jesus,

That would be all of us.

who believes Paul's writings are not verbally inspired

Okay, ALL scripture is NOT given by Inspiration of God?

and sees American Evangelicalism as behaviorally in opposition to much of what Christ taught.

So you believe you hold the moral high ground which enables you to judge all the rest of us?

Which of my behaviors do you believe are in opposition to what Christ taught? Please be specific.

Thank you.

Point 1. Matthew 7:21 - 23

Point 2. What is "Scripture"? A specific canon? If that is believed, then you are correct. I don't believe in plenary inspiration of the 66-book canon.

Point 3. Jesus' teachings hold the moral high ground, not me. I have never met you so I have no opinion about you personally. Therefore, I cannot and will not answer about you specifically.

But for AMERICAN Evangelicalism as a whole, it is their thirst for political power, nationalism, materialism, misogynistic teachings, closeted hatred for gay folks, refusal to denounce a theology and society built on white supremacy, violent atonement theory, and despite pretending to be pro-life, take a political pro-torture, pro-war and pro-capital punishment stance while supporting the political removal of healthcare and approval of splitting up family units in the name of oppressing the immigrant. How do I know? To paraphrase Talbert Swan: Evangelicals chided Obama who is a family man and churchgoer, yet they embrace a thrice-married serial adulterer, admitted sexual predator, ultimate materialist, casino owner, habitual liar, and unprincipled heathen as the standard bearer for their ?family values? agenda/god.

I hope that is specific enough for you.

 

[Thomas Cassidy]

Point 1. Matthew 7:21 - 23

Your point is that there are some who claim Christ but in fact deny Him? I agree. They usually start by denying the bible, at least in part, then progress to the "Did Jesus really say that" stage.

Point 2. What is "Scripture"? A specific canon? If that is believed, then you are correct. I don't believe in plenary inspiration of the 66-book canon.

Yes. That would be step #1 above. Every one of the Epistles were accepted as scripture by the early churches.

Point 3. Jesus' teachings hold the moral high ground, not me. I have never met you so I have no opinion about you personally. Therefore, I cannot and will not answer about you specifically.

But you already did with your broad-brush judgmental condemnation of Evangelicalism.

But for AMERICAN Evangelicalism as a whole, it is their thirst for political power,

I couldn't care less about US politics.

nationalism,

More nonsense.

materialism,

Hogwash. The major portion of my income for the past 60 years has gone to help the less fortunate. Just this past week we fed 197 hungry families.

misogynistic teachings,

More nonsense. 25% of our pastoral staff is female and 75% of our church's paid staff is female.

closeted hatred for gay folks,

More nonsense. We have a very strong outreach to the gay community.

refusal to denounce a theology and society built on white supremacy,

More utter nonsense! My grandfather, Francisco Bernardo de la Mora Gonzales immigrated to this country from Mexico in 1924. Where did your lily white family come from?

  violent atonement theory,

Yeah. Christ died for sinners. That is called "The Gospel." But I have to say I am not surprised you deny it.

and despite pretending to be pro-life,

Yep. Life is precious.

take a political pro-torture,

It is not only a violation of the most basic of human rights, it doesn't work.

pro-war

Nope. I'm the guy who gave his, literal, pound of flesh and has been disabled ever since, remember? Most of us who have "been there and done that" know the horror of war, and stand against it unless our own country is being invaded.

and pro-capital punishment stance

More utter nonsense. Capital punishment is an admission of failure. And is probably as much as 40% in serious error. Not to mention the percentages of people of color are way way too high.

while supporting the political removal of healthcare

Nope. I'm the guy in favor of single payer, remember? I am against Obamacare, that is true. But I am against it because it is nothing more than a windfall profits scheme for Big Insurance Companies.

and approval of splitting up family units in the name of oppressing the immigrant.

Nope again. (Don't you get tired of being wrong all the time?) I am pro-DACA and pro-immigration reform. And I couldn't help but notice you made a false accusation. You said "immigrant" rather than "illegal immigrant." Very dishonest. Nobody is anti-immigrant. We are all the descendants of immigrants.

How do I know?

You don't. You just spout your vile brand of bigotry.

To paraphrase Talbert Swan: Evangelicals chided Obama who is a family man and churchgoer, yet they embrace a thrice-married serial adulterer, admitted sexual predator, ultimate materialist, casino owner, habitual liar, and unprincipled heathen as the standard bearer for their ?family values? agenda/god.

More stupidity. I voted for Gary Johnson.

I hope that is specific enough for you.

Yes. As my dad used to say, "Give him enough rope to hang himself." You did.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

Point 1. Matthew 7:21 - 23

Your point is that there are some who claim Christ but in fact deny Him? I agree. They usually start by denying the bible, at least in part, then progress to the "Did Jesus really say that" stage.

Point 2. What is "Scripture"? A specific canon? If that is believed, then you are correct. I don't believe in plenary inspiration of the 66-book canon.

Yes. That would be step #1 above. Every one of the Epistles were accepted as scripture by the early churches.

Point 3. Jesus' teachings hold the moral high ground, not me. I have never met you so I have no opinion about you personally. Therefore, I cannot and will not answer about you specifically.

But you already did with your broad-brush judgmental condemnation of Evangelicalism.

But for AMERICAN Evangelicalism as a whole, it is their thirst for political power,

I couldn't care less about US politics.

nationalism,

More nonsense.

materialism,

Hogwash. The major portion of my income for the past 60 years has gone to help the less fortunate. Just this past week we fed 197 hungry families.

misogynistic teachings,

More nonsense. 25% of our pastoral staff is female and 75% of our church's paid staff is female.

closeted hatred for gay folks,

More nonsense. We have a very strong outreach to the gay community.

refusal to denounce a theology and society built on white supremacy,

More utter nonsense! My grandfather, Francisco Bernardo de la Mora Gonzales immigrated to this country from Mexico in 1924. Where did your lily white family come from?

  violent atonement theory,

Yeah. Christ died for sinners. That is called "The Gospel." But I have to say I am not surprised you deny it.

and despite pretending to be pro-life,

Yep. Life is precious.

take a political pro-torture,

It is not only a violation of the most basic of human rights, it doesn't work.

pro-war

Nope. I'm the guy who gave his, literal, pound of flesh and has been disabled ever since, remember? Most of us who have "been there and done that" know the horror of war, and stand against it unless our own country is being invaded.

and pro-capital punishment stance

More utter nonsense. Capital punishment is an admission of failure. And is probably as much as 40% in serious error. Not to mention the percentages of people of color are way way too high.

while supporting the political removal of healthcare

Nope. I'm the guy in favor of single payer, remember? I am against Obamacare, that is true. But I am against it because it is nothing more than a windfall profits scheme for Big Insurance Companies.

and approval of splitting up family units in the name of oppressing the immigrant.

Nope again. (Don't you get tired of being wrong all the time?) I am pro-DACA and pro-immigration reform. And I couldn't help but notice you made a false accusation. You said "immigrant" rather than "illegal immigrant." Very dishonest. Nobody is anti-immigrant. We are all the descendants of immigrants.

How do I know?

You don't. You just spout your vile brand of bigotry.

To paraphrase Talbert Swan: Evangelicals chided Obama who is a family man and churchgoer, yet they embrace a thrice-married serial adulterer, admitted sexual predator, ultimate materialist, casino owner, habitual liar, and unprincipled heathen as the standard bearer for their ?family values? agenda/god.

More stupidity. I voted for Gary Johnson.

I hope that is specific enough for you.

Yes. As my dad used to say, "Give him enough rope to hang himself." You did.

81%. That is a majority. Enough said about my opinion of Evangelicalism.

Oh, and "the gospel" that Jesus is recorded to have preached was not that of violent atonement but of earthly justice.