The History of Irresistible Grace

[Ransom]

No Protestant Reformer, including John Calvin, had either believed in it or condemned it.

Already answered, and ignored by you.

Neither Mani nor St. Augustine had either believed in it or condemned it.

Already answered, and ignored by you.

There's no point in trying to interact with you, Vince. The conceit with which you post your assertions about church history and historical theology is overshadowed only by the colossal ignorance you display when you do. You trumpet falsehoods on the one hand, and refuse to be corrected on the other (indeed, make no indication that you are even reading contrary opinions to your own). The arrogance of your position is breathtaking.

 

[Vince Massi]

Brethren, Calvinism teaches its victims to look at Scripture through the lens of John Calvin, not Scripture. A Calvinist is trained to read a verse with the word "unconditional" in mind. For instance, the Scriptures teach us that Pharaoh was a vessel of wrath, fitted to destruction. But it wasn't unconditional--Pharaoh was already cursed by God for mistreating Israel, and now God took revenge.  But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound; God first sent Moses and Aaron to reason with Pharaoh and show him miracles. Pharaoh's response was to harden his own heart, and later, God took revenge on him by hardening his heart to physical death in the Red Sea.

 

[bgwilkinson]

Vince, take your meds as suggested previously, your reading comprehension and short term memory may improve. Well we can hope. 

 

[Vince Massi]

Vince, take your meds as suggested previously, your reading comprehension and short term memory may improve. Well we can hope. 

Calvinism is a religion of fear and false accusation.

 

[bgwilkinson]

Vince, take your meds as suggested previously, your reading comprehension and short term memory may improve. Well we can hope. 

Calvinism is a religion of fear and false accusation.

Right! Blog on in peace. Bless your heart.

 

[Vince Massi]

The invention of irresistible grace gave the Calvinists a badly-needed weapon to maintain control.

The Calvinists called for a Church Council. All the judges would be Calvinists. When the Arminians cited Scripture to disprove Calvinism, the judges would unanimously reject that verse, citing "The Whole of Scripture." By declaring in advance that any false doctrine is taught by "The Whole of Scripture," false teachers can reject any verse exposing that false doctrine. Only Calvinists who opposed the revival, accepted irresistible grace, held to "The Whole of Scripture," and were willing to murder saints could be judges. The guilty verdict was finalized, and the death sentence was passed. Now they only had to hold the trial.

And knowing all this, the Arminians accepted. Because the Arminians planned to win.

 

[Ransom]

The invention of irresistible grace gave the Calvinists a badly-needed weapon to maintain control.

Since it has already been demonstrated that irresistible grace existed in the doctrine of Augustine, how could the Calvinists have "invented" it?

Also, you said, earlier:

None of history's Christian or pseudo-Christian movements had ever heard of it.

Is "Calvinism" one of "history's Christian or pseudo-Christian movements," or not?

You can no longer honestly claim ignorance. Now, you're just a liar.  In fact you've spun such a web of contradictory stories now, that you pretty much can't say anything else on this thread without proving something you've asserted to be a lie.

 

[Vince Massi]

The Synod of Dort is such a disgrace to the Name of Christ that I'm glad it was done in the name of John Calvin. The judges were all Calvinists who believed in irresistible grace and practiced "The Whole of Scripture." The judges had already agreed to reject Scripture one verse at a time. The guilty verdict was finalized before the trial began, and the Arminians defendants had already been sentenced to death.

And then the Calvinists found out that they might lose.

The Arminians had learned a few things during their successful revival. They knew that unconditional election is based on the pagan philosophies of Mani, not Scripture. They knew that St. Augustine had not believed that unconditional election was Scriptural. And they understood "The Whole of Scripture" as a means of protecting false doctrine.

Instead of citing one verse at a time, the Arminians planned to start from nothing. Then they would build up the Biblical doctrine of salvation. Since Calvinism can not be built up from Scripture, unconditional election would not even appear. To those still undecided, the Arminians would win. When the Calvinists then passed the death sentence after losing, everyone would know that it was murder. Local authorities would be more likely to protect the Arminians, the government would be less willing to kill them, and those who testified were willing to accept the martyr's crown if they couldn't escape.

And, having rigged the trial, the Calvinists realized that they really were going to lose.

 

[Vince Massi]

But you said that Calvin did not believe in irresistible grace.

I have never heard such a fantastical, erroneous and asinine historical fiction as you pose above.

Admin, instead of answering me with insults and false accusations, why don't you answer with knowledge? Show the phrase "irresistible grace" in the writings of John Calvin. Or of St. Augustine. Or of Mani. Or of any Protestant Reformer. Or of any Pope. Or of any Church Council. Or in the original statement of Faith of the Dutch Reformed Church. Or in the original statement of faith of any denomination. Or of any Church Father. Or of any Doctor of the Church.

Irresistible grace was invented in the first decade of the seventeenth century.

 

[Ransom]

The Synod of Dort is such a disgrace to the Name of Christ that I'm glad it was done in the name of John Calvin. The judges were all Calvinists who believed in irresistible grace and practiced "The Whole of Scripture."

No Protestant Reformer, including John Calvin, had either believed in it or condemned it.

There you go again! One of these statements is a lie. Which one is it, Vince?

Admin, instead of answering me with insults and false accusations, why don't you answer with knowledge?

He is answering with knowledge, Vince - the clear, demonstrated knowledge that you have no clue what you are talking about.

Show the phrase "irresistible grace" in the writings of John Calvin. Or of St. Augustine.

Oh, that's right. You think, contrary to all reason, that if the specific words aren't used, then they don't believe in the actual thing.

 

[bgwilkinson]

But you said that Calvin did not believe in irresistible grace.

I have never heard such a fantastical, erroneous and asinine historical fiction as you pose above.

To get this much imaginative historical revisionism and fantasy one must look at Ellen G. Whites SDA Master-Work The Great Controversy Between Christ and Satan.

 

[Vince Massi]

You readers notice that neither one of these critics is showing knowledge. Neither one is showing that Arminians were allowed to sit on the Synod of Dort, that the judges were neutral, that the guilty verdict and the death penalty were not finalized in advance.

Calvinism is a religion of fear and false accusation.

 

[Ransom]

You readers notice that neither one of these critics is showing knowledge.

Which one of your many and contradictory tall tales are we supposed to refute?

 

[Vince Massi]

Having rigged the judges, the verdict, and the sentence, the Calvinists were dismayed to learn that they were still going to lose at the Council of Dort. The Arminians had decided that they would start from nothing and then build up the Biblical doctrine of salvation. Doing this would leave no room for Calvinism, which starts with pagan philosophy. "The Whole of Scripture" requires that you begin with Calvinism, and it would not work if the Arminians used only Scripture.

So the Calvinists decided to rig the defense. Arminians would not be allowed to speak at their trial--only Calvinists would speak for the defense. These Calvinists would cite one verse at a time, the judges would unanimously reject the verse on "The Whole of Scripture," and then the guilty verdict and death sentence would be announced.

And so it was done. The Synod of Dort found the Arminians guilty and passed the death sentence. Not being as bloodthirsty as the church leaders, the Dutch government executed a single elderly war hero, removed Arminians from their pulpits, seized some property, and exiled some people. Some local authorities refused to enforce it, but the Calvinists still won. The revival was stopped, and the newly invented irresistible grace became part of Calvinist dogma.

 

[Ransom]

Having rigged the judges, the verdict, and the sentence

Sort of like rigging your fairy tales about Calvinists and irresistible grace. Since you are saying contradictory things, presumably something must be true, right?

The Synod of Dort is such a disgrace to the Name of Christ that I'm glad it was done in the name of John Calvin. The judges were all Calvinists who believed in irresistible grace and practiced "The Whole of Scripture."

No Protestant Reformer, including John Calvin, had either believed in it or condemned it.

 

[bgwilkinson]

Maybe he does not read what he copies and pastes.

It's as if he is mindlessly blogging along not realizing cogent discussion would better serve whatever it is he is trying to put forth.

I can not tell what he is trying to advance, can anyone explain it?

 

[Vince Massi]

Well, Gang, we've got the Calvinists hopping, and I can see why.

Knowledge tells us that irresistible grace did not exist before the seventeenth century, and that nobody at all, including John Calvin, believed in it. The Calvinists rigged the judges, verdict, and sentence of the Synod of Dort, and then realized that they would still lose, so they rigged the defense.

Some Calvinist posters are applying false accusations to the situation, but let's use "wisdom" instead--the ability to apply knowledge to a specific situation. If nobody believed in irresistible grace, which is not taught in Scripture, before the seventeenth century; and if Calvinists had to rig the judges, verdict, sentence, and defense at the Synod of Dort to get irresistible grace made a part of Calvinism, then irresistible grace cannot be part of Christianity. (It contradicts to many Scriptures, as well).

Because Calvinism collapses without irresistible grace (Since the lost cannot respond to God, then the elect cannot respond when God calls them), Calvinism cannot work. And the Calvinists know that--that's why they had to invent irresistible grace.

The Scriptures, Brethren, the Scriptures. Stick with the Word of God and you won't be taken in by false philosophy.

 

[subllibrm]

The Scriptures, Brethren, the Scriptures. Stick with the Word of God and you won't be taken in by false philosophy.

Feel free to use some.

 

[Ransom]

The Scriptures, Brethren, the Scriptures. Stick with the Word of God and you won't be taken in by false philosophy.

The only mention you make of any specific Scripture is to deny that it meant what the Calvinist who raised it, said it did.

You really, really have no clue what you are talking about. Truly, you are a credit to a Hyles-Anderson education!

 

[Vince Massi]

The Scriptures, Brethren, the Scriptures. Stick with the Word of God and you won't be taken in by false philosophy.

Feel free to use some.

Great idea!

ERRORS OF CALVINISM
"O horrible decree; worthy of the place from whence it came! Forgive them of their blasphemy who charge it to the Lamb!" From a hymn by Charles Wesley on Calvinism.

Christ enlightens all men: John 1:4,9; 8:12; 9:5
God's grace appears to all men: John 12:32; 16:8; Acts 26:22-23; Titus 2:11
Men can resist God:  Jer 13:11; Acts 7:51
Our actions may win souls: 1 Peter 3:1; James 5:19-20
God wants everyone to be saved:  Luke 19:10; John 17:21; 1 Tim. 2:4; 2 Pet 3:9; 1 John 4:14; John 12:47; Acts 3:26
Christ died for all: John 1:29; 4:42; 6:33; Rom 5:18; 1 Cor 15:22; 2 Cor 5:14-15; 1 Tim 2:6; 4:10; Heb 2:9; 10:29; 2 Pet 2:1-3; 1 John 2:2; Col 1:20
Why God hardens some: Is 54:15 Rom 1:21 Rom 11:32 Is 6:9-10 AND Acts 28:25-27  Is 48:8  God still desires their salvation Ps 90:3
How God elects people: 1 Pet 1:2  Election does not usually refer to salvation: Rom 9:11-13
People are saved while still blind: 2 Cor 3:13-16
Predestination is not to salvation: Rom 8:29; Eph 1:5
God the Father draws all people to Christ: John 6:44-45
The same works of God can be accepted or rejected by the lost: Luke 10:13