The size of a community of faith

[rsc2a]

How large must a community of faith be to be rightly considered a church?

How large would a community of faith have to be before you would consider it too large to function properly?

 

[sword]

It depends on your definition of function properly.

I would say when 2 or 3 who are not all one family are gathered together in his name, on a weekly basis, it could be defined as a church. I don’t think the size is all that important.

The following churches are very large,  but seem to function well with the use on volunteers.
Each provides a large number of ministries and outreach programs.

Lakewood Avg. Attendance: 45,000 number of unpaid workers: 3000-5000
2nd Baptist Houston Avg. Attendance: 25,000 number of unpaid workers: 1000
Saddleback Avg. Attendance: 20,000 number of unpaid workers: 1000*

*It takes over 2000 volunteer hrs. weekly,  just  to run Saddlebacks food pantry alone.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

I would say when 2 or 3 who are not all one family are gathered together in his name

I guess I have to stop calling my Christian brothers and sisters "brother" and "sister". 

 

[rsc2a]

I would think accountability, discipline, a sense of belonging, the ability to exercise your gifts for the good of the body,  intimacy...

.. those would all be necessary for the group to be said functioning properly.

 

[FSSL]

How large must a community of faith be to be rightly considered a church?

How large would a community of faith have to be before you would consider it too large to function properly?

Size is not the issue. Capabilities of those who organize the community is the issue. I know some pastors who should never have a church over 10 people because they lack the ability to disciple more than one or two people and they lack the administrative skills to delegate/disciple leaders.

 

[Mathew Ward]

How large must a community of faith be to be rightly considered a church?

How large would a community of faith have to be before you would consider it too large to function properly?

I think you could be a community of 1 and be a church.

Please define the function of a church.

 

[Ransom]

I think you could be a community of 1 and be a church.

Little difficult to appoint elders and deacons, engage in corporate worship, administer the ordinances, and perform church discipline in an "assembly" of one, wouldn't you agree?

Those are the functions that define a New Testament church. And the answer to both questions, when is a church too small or too large, is the same: when it can no longer effectively perform those scriptural functions.

 

[JrChurch]

How large must a community of faith be to be rightly considered a church?

How large would a community of faith have to be before you would consider it too large to function properly?

Considering the state in which I live.... our large community of faith definitely exceeds the weight limit.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

I think you could be a community of 1 and be a church.

Little difficult to appoint elders and deacons, engage in corporate worship, administer the ordinances, and perform church discipline in an "assembly" of one, wouldn't you agree?

Those are the functions that define a New Testament church. And the answer to both questions, when is a church too small or too large, is the same: when it can no longer effectively perform those scriptural functions.

Exactly.
And, much of being effective in performing those functions depends on the caliber of the church's leadership.

 

[Mathew Ward]

I think you could be a community of 1 and be a church.

Little difficult to appoint elders and deacons, engage in corporate worship, administer the ordinances, and perform church discipline in an "assembly" of one, wouldn't you agree?

Those are the functions that define a New Testament church. And the answer to both questions, when is a church too small or too large, is the same: when it can no longer effectively perform those scriptural functions.

It can have an elder. Deacons were appointed as the church grew in the book of Acts. So was it not a church before there were deacons? I guess a person of 1 could not engage in worship?

So every church that does not perform church discipline is not a church?

 

[bgwilkinson]

How large must a community of faith be to be rightly considered a church?

How large would a community of faith have to be before you would consider it too large to function properly?

I think you could be a community of 1 and be a church.

Please define the function of a church.

Here's my 2 cents plus some other guys too.

In Matthew 16:18 we have the passage  the Catholics use to take the lead in all matters of organized religion claiming Peter as first Pope and head of the Church of Rome.

In the Vulgate they used ecclesiam a transliteration of the Greek ecclesia. They did not define this as a congregation or assembly of called out ones but rather they defined it as the religious organization The Roman Catholic Church. Church has a range of meanings not present in ecclesia which means only a congregation or assembly of called out ones.

So step one is to properly translate ecclesia in all verses where Bancroft at James insistence put Church. By that he meant of course The Church of England. A most unfortunate rendering.

Now Tyndale started out the Greek to English translating by putting congregation for ecclesia, he got killed because of it.

Mat 16:18  And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my congregation; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Mat 16:19  And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.



Mat 18:17  And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the congregation: but if he neglect to hear the congregation, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
Mat 18:18  Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Mat 18:19  Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 18:20  For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

My opinion is that it takes a minimum of two to get to the congregation level.


Well here is the other guys opinion, John Gill:
Matthew 18:20
For where two or three are gathered together,.... This seems to be said in opposition to a Jewish notion, that a number less than ten, is not a congregation (a); whereas, though the number is ever so few that are met together to pray to God; or to hear his word, attend on his ordinances, or do the business of his house, or transact any affair that is for the glory of God, and the good of souls, in my name, says Christ; that is, by his authority, depending on his assistance, calling upon his name, and making use of it, and seeking the glory of it:

there am I in the midst of them; presiding over them, ruling in their hearts, directing their counsels, assisting them in all they are concerned, confirming what they do, and giving a blessing and success to all they are engaged in. The Jews, though they say there is no congregation less than ten, yet own that the divine presence may be with a lesser number, even as small an one as here mentioned (b).


So I am with Jesus two or more is a congregation. 

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

How large must a community of faith be to be rightly considered a church?

How large would a community of faith have to be before you would consider it too large to function properly?

I think you could be a community of 1 and be a church.

Please define the function of a church.

Here's my 2 cents plus some other guys too.

In Matthew 16:18 we have the passage  the Catholics use to take the lead in all matters of organized religion claiming Peter as first Pope and head of the Church of Rome.

In the Vulgate they used ecclesiam a transliteration of the Greek ecclesia. They did not define this as a congregation or assembly of called out ones but rather they defined it as the religious organization The Roman Catholic Church. Church has a range of meanings not present in ecclesia which means only a congregation or assembly of called out ones.

So step one is to properly translate ecclesia in all verses where Bancroft at James insistence put Church. By that he meant of course The Church of England. A most unfortunate rendering.

Now Tyndale started out the Greek to English translating by putting congregation for ecclesia, he got killed because of it.

Mat 16:18  And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my congregation; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Mat 16:19  And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.



Mat 18:17  And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the congregation: but if he neglect to hear the congregation, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
Mat 18:18  Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Mat 18:19  Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 18:20  For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

My opinion is that it takes a minimum of two to get to the congregation level.


Well here is the other guys opinion, John Gill:
Matthew 18:20
For where two or three are gathered together,.... This seems to be said in opposition to a Jewish notion, that a number less than ten, is not a congregation (a); whereas, though the number is ever so few that are met together to pray to God; or to hear his word, attend on his ordinances, or do the business of his house, or transact any affair that is for the glory of God, and the good of souls, in my name, says Christ; that is, by his authority, depending on his assistance, calling upon his name, and making use of it, and seeking the glory of it:

there am I in the midst of them; presiding over them, ruling in their hearts, directing their counsels, assisting them in all they are concerned, confirming what they do, and giving a blessing and success to all they are engaged in. The Jews, though they say there is no congregation less than ten, yet own that the divine presence may be with a lesser number, even as small an one as here mentioned (b).


So I am with Jesus two or more is a congregation. 

Actually, the word catholic is closer to being the correct translation of ecclesia than church (as we think of the word now) or congregation. 

Merriam Webster's definition of catholic:

1. a often capitalized :  of, relating to, or forming the church universal

 

[lnf]

I believe that any single believer is a member of the "Church Universal", but it does take more than one believer to make a "local church".  Sure, a local church can consist of two people or thousands.  But not every two (or more) people gathered together necessarily makes a church...if they don't intend to perform God's ordinances.  So, churches can be quite small in number, but they still have certain responsibilities.  If they don't intend to attend to those responsibilities, they are a prayer group.

 

[bgwilkinson]

How large must a community of faith be to be rightly considered a church?

How large would a community of faith have to be before you would consider it too large to function properly?

I think you could be a community of 1 and be a church.

Please define the function of a church.

Here's my 2 cents plus some other guys too.

In Matthew 16:18 we have the passage  the Catholics use to take the lead in all matters of organized religion claiming Peter as first Pope and head of the Church of Rome.

In the Vulgate they used ecclesiam a transliteration of the Greek ecclesia. They did not define this as a congregation or assembly of called out ones but rather they defined it as the religious organization The Roman Catholic Church. Church has a range of meanings not present in ecclesia which means only a congregation or assembly of called out ones.

So step one is to properly translate ecclesia in all verses where Bancroft at James insistence put Church. By that he meant of course The Church of England. A most unfortunate rendering.

Now Tyndale started out the Greek to English translating by putting congregation for ecclesia, he got killed because of it.

Mat 16:18  And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my congregation; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Mat 16:19  And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.



Mat 18:17  And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the congregation: but if he neglect to hear the congregation, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
Mat 18:18  Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Mat 18:19  Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 18:20  For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

My opinion is that it takes a minimum of two to get to the congregation level.


Well here is the other guys opinion, John Gill:
Matthew 18:20
For where two or three are gathered together,.... This seems to be said in opposition to a Jewish notion, that a number less than ten, is not a congregation (a); whereas, though the number is ever so few that are met together to pray to God; or to hear his word, attend on his ordinances, or do the business of his house, or transact any affair that is for the glory of God, and the good of souls, in my name, says Christ; that is, by his authority, depending on his assistance, calling upon his name, and making use of it, and seeking the glory of it:

there am I in the midst of them; presiding over them, ruling in their hearts, directing their counsels, assisting them in all they are concerned, confirming what they do, and giving a blessing and success to all they are engaged in. The Jews, though they say there is no congregation less than ten, yet own that the divine presence may be with a lesser number, even as small an one as here mentioned (b).


So I am with Jesus two or more is a congregation. 

Actually, the word catholic is closer to being the correct translation of ecclesia than church (as we think of the word now) or congregation. 

Merriam Webster's definition of catholic:

1. a often capitalized :  of, relating to, or forming the church universal

I was going by my Lexicon:
11.32 ἐκκλησίαa, ας f: a congregation of Christians, implying interacting membership—‘congregation, church.’ τῇ ἐκκλησίᾳ τοῦ θεοῦ τῇ οὔσῃ ἐν Κορίνθῳ ‘to the church of God which is in Corinth’ 1 Cor 1:2; ἀσπάζονται ὑμᾶς αἱ ἐκκλησίαι πᾶσαι τοῦ Χριστοῦ ‘all the churches of Christ greet you’ Ro 16:16.
Though some persons have tried to see in the term ἐκκλησία a more or less literal meaning of ‘called-out ones,’ this type of etymologizing is not warranted either by the meaning of ἐκκλησία in NT times or even by its earlier usage. The term ἐκκλησία was in common usage for several hundred years before the Christian era and was used to refer to an assembly of persons constituted by well- defined membership. In general Greek usage it was normally a socio-political entity based upon citizenship in a city-state (see ἐκκλησίαc, 11.78) and in this sense is parallel to δῆμος (11.78). For the NT, however, it is important to understand the meaning of ἐκκλησίαa as ‘an assembly of God’s people.’
In the rendering of ἐκκλησίαa a translator must beware of using a term which refers primarily to a building rather than to a congregation of believers. In many contexts ἐκκλησίαa may be readily rendered as ‘gathering of believers’ or ‘group of those who trust in Christ.’ Sometimes, as in 1 Cor 1:2, it is possible to translate ‘Paul writes to the believers in Christ who live in Corinth.’ Such a translation does, however, omit a significant element in the term ἐκκλησίαa, in that the sense of corporate unity is not specified.


Louw, J. P., & Nida, E. A. (1996). Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: based on semantic domains. New York: United Bible Societies.

Just my view 

 

[Mathew Ward]

I believe that any single believer is a member of the "Church Universal", but it does take more than one believer to make a "local church".  Sure, a local church can consist of two people or thousands.  But not every two (or more) people gathered together necessarily makes a church...if they don't intend to perform God's ordinances.  So, churches can be quite small in number, but they still have certain responsibilities.  If they don't intend to attend to those responsibilities, they are a prayer group.

So can a single individual perform God's ordinances?

If so, then it seems one would be the smallest number.

 

[Ransom]

It can have an elder. Deacons were appointed as the church grew in the book of Acts.

What I said was, a so-called "church" will have difficulty appointing them. If you're going to argue, argue with what I said, rather than just popping off another macro about something I didn't say.

So was it not a church before there were deacons?

Irrelevant. By the time Paul wrote 1 Timothy, the need for a diaconate was assumed.

I guess a person of 1 could not engage in worship?

Who are you going to minister the Word of God to, "elder" . . . yourself? LOL.

So every church that does not perform church discipline is not a church?

Read what I said, not what you think I said. If it cannot (I didn't say "does not," did I?) perform church discipline, it is not a duly constituted church.

Your risible "church of one" consists of a single elder with no congregation to oversee, and who is accountable to nobody because there are not a further two or three witnesses to accuse him when he goes astray. Church discipline under those circmstances is a joke - rather like the laughable idea that a New Testament ekklesia (the usual word for an assembly or gathering) can consist of one individual. Talk about a contradiction in terms.

 

[Mathew Ward]

It can have an elder. Deacons were appointed as the church grew in the book of Acts.

What I said was, a so-called "church" will have difficulty appointing them. If you're going to argue, argue with what I said, rather than just popping off another macro about something I didn't say.

So was it not a church before there were deacons?

Irrelevant. By the time Paul wrote 1 Timothy, the need for a diaconate was assumed.

I guess a person of 1 could not engage in worship?

Who are you going to minister the Word of God to, "elder" . . . yourself? LOL.

So every church that does not perform church discipline is not a church?

Read what I said, not what you think I said. If it cannot (I didn't say "does not," did I?) perform church discipline, it is not a duly constituted church.

Your risible "church of one" consists of a single elder with no congregation to oversee, and who is accountable to nobody because there are not a further two or three witnesses to accuse him when he goes astray. Church discipline under those circmstances is a joke - rather like the laughable idea that a New Testament ekklesia (the usual word for an assembly or gathering) can consist of one individual. Talk about a contradiction in terms.

So when Jesus started the church, how many deacons were there? I guess it wasn't a church then by 'your' definition or Irrelevant.

So when Jesus started the church how many elders were appointed? Same number as the deacons. I guess by 'your' definition it wasn't a church or Irrelevant.

So I take it you have never had the Spirit of God minister to you during your own teaching or preaching?

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Though some persons have tried to see in the term ἐκκλησία a more or less literal meaning of ‘called-out ones,’ this type of etymologizing is not warranted either by the meaning of ἐκκλησία in NT times or even by its earlier usage.

Maybe we see that literal meaning because it is the literal meaning.  I can see where there are times the context demands a local assembly.  And in those cases I usually see it translated as assembly.  But even when it's translated church, the limitation comes from the surrounding context, not the word itself. 

Such as, "At that time a great persecution arose against the church which was at Jerusalem." 

Also, there are also other words for assembly, and the writers used those words such as pantws, the Greek word for synagogue, etc. 

There are other times when the context demands universal, such as "on this rock I will build my church".  Surely Jesus is not talking about the local assembly. 

Or, "As for Saul, he made havoc of the church, entering every house, and dragging off men and women, committing them to prison."  THE church (in every house).  Not, every HOUSE church.  That's church universal.  Without a limiting context, ecclesia refers to the called out ones (which, coincidentally, is what the word means). 

Louw, J. P., & Nida, E. A. (1996). Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: based on semantic domains. New York: United Bible Societies.

Just my view 

Your view based on Louw's view, yeah. 

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

I believe that any single believer is a member of the "Church Universal", but it does take more than one believer to make a "local church".  Sure, a local church can consist of two people or thousands.  But not every two (or more) people gathered together necessarily makes a church...if they don't intend to perform God's ordinances.  So, churches can be quite small in number, but they still have certain responsibilities.  If they don't intend to attend to those responsibilities, they are a prayer group.

So can a single individual perform God's ordinances?

If so, then it seems one would be the smallest number.

Just so I'm clear...are you arguing that one person fits the Biblical definition of a church?

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

The size of a church is not designated in the Bible.
There are large churches, small churches...there are no one person churches.

The effectiveness of the church and it's size, in my experience, depends greatly on the under-shepherd(s0 of that church.
Some can effectively lead and organize thousands, hundreds, dozens....
Others can effectively lead and organize those who fit around a kitchen table.