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Nuff said.
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Things that make you say hmmmmmm
- Thread starter RedRover01
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Nuff said.
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Makes you go hmmmmm
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I like Job 14:4, 6 in the same context. There was probably not room for them on the sign.
T
TruthBearer
Guest
A more fitting verse would 1 Samuel 2:34-35. And this shall be a sign unto thee, that shall come upon thy two sons, on Hophni and Phinehas; in one day they shall die both of them. And I will raise me up a faithful priest, that shall do according to that which is in mine heart and in my mind: and I will build him a sure house; and he shall walk before mine anointed for ever.
Since JAV thinks he is a man of God like Eli this verse can be written as:
And this shall be a sign unto thee, that shall come upon thy two sons, on Paul and Merle; in one day they shall die both of them. And I will raise me up a faithful priest, that shall do according to that which is in mine heart and in my mind: and I will build him a sure house; and he shall walk before mine anointed for ever.
It is interesting in this verse that God said the priest would walk before mine anointed not that the priest was the anointed. I guess not all priest/pastors are the anointed ones.
Since JAV thinks he is a man of God like Eli this verse can be written as:
And this shall be a sign unto thee, that shall come upon thy two sons, on Paul and Merle; in one day they shall die both of them. And I will raise me up a faithful priest, that shall do according to that which is in mine heart and in my mind: and I will build him a sure house; and he shall walk before mine anointed for ever.
It is interesting in this verse that God said the priest would walk before mine anointed not that the priest was the anointed. I guess not all priest/pastors are the anointed ones.
I am sorry to bring this up and I don't wish to offend anyone, but it is very sad to see what is happening in a lot of these ifb churches that used to boast of thousands saved and baptized and hundreds of clowns running up and down the aisles on Sunday for a big day. Here is the kicker: I can't help but believe a lot of this demise and pastoral impotence started with Jack Hyles.
BALAAM said:
I'm not sure that this started with one man. I certainly cannot argue that Jack Hyles may have been one of the forerunners and perhaps the most visible in the "1-2-3 repeat after me" style of "evangelism".
It is my opinion that this started when the measure of success became results. If you pastored a small church you were unsuccessful. If you were small in numbers but could boast several hundred saved and baptized, then you were a success. It doesn't matter that very few of your "converts" were "fruit that remained".
This mindset permeates our IFB colleges. Students must produce to be considered successful or as having potential. No more is the emphasis on faithfulness, character, or perseverance. The emphasis is on numbers. This has led to "easy believeism" or "quick prayerism" as some call it.
I personally know missionaries who are out of the ministry because they just couldn't produce the numbers that were expected of them. They may have started a half dozen churches all running 10-15 people, but they were not considered successful because they weren't seeing hundreds saved each year.
T
TruthBearer
Guest
When JAV stepped down and turned the church over to Tommy Boy he boasted that there had been 68,000 professions of faith in his 30 years at WHBC. If you do the math that is 2267 per year, 189 per month, 47 per week.
In my 15 years there I never seen 47 people go forward in a service. I am not sure where he got these numbers, (other than church records) but if it were true all these so called conversions were never discipled because the church (excluding bus kids) only ran about 1,000 members. Which is only about 1.4% success rate in discipleship. That is pitiful and shows the pastor is not feeding the flock.
It always seemed to me the goal was to get them to make a profession regardless if they knew what they were professing or if they understood completely to show success and potential for college students. I know of some that made the profession just to get them to go away so they could go about their day, but they counted as another notch in thier Bible.
I believe the failure of IBF churches is the lack of discipleship once someone accepts Christ as their personal saviour. There is an evident push for the 1-2-3 pray after me to meet quota's imposed on college students. The verse they use to make college students pressured into professions of faith is Luke 10:2 "Therefore said he unto them, The harvest truly is great, but the labourers are few: pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth labourers into his harvest." Naturally if the harvest is great and they are not getting professions of faith made they are not being a good Christian/college student they must be a slacker in the eyes of many IBF churches.
Many times during soul winning the only people that showed up were college students, staff members and Sunday school teachers which all of these were required. Very few regular church members would show up which is a sign of lack of discipleship within the church.
I still remember the look on Tommy Boy's face when nobody at all came forward during an invitation. It was the first time in years and he was shocked. The days and services following this he preached and got on to the college students for not bringing in the sheaves and being slothful in thier Christian service.
In my 15 years there I never seen 47 people go forward in a service. I am not sure where he got these numbers, (other than church records) but if it were true all these so called conversions were never discipled because the church (excluding bus kids) only ran about 1,000 members. Which is only about 1.4% success rate in discipleship. That is pitiful and shows the pastor is not feeding the flock.
It always seemed to me the goal was to get them to make a profession regardless if they knew what they were professing or if they understood completely to show success and potential for college students. I know of some that made the profession just to get them to go away so they could go about their day, but they counted as another notch in thier Bible.
I believe the failure of IBF churches is the lack of discipleship once someone accepts Christ as their personal saviour. There is an evident push for the 1-2-3 pray after me to meet quota's imposed on college students. The verse they use to make college students pressured into professions of faith is Luke 10:2 "Therefore said he unto them, The harvest truly is great, but the labourers are few: pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth labourers into his harvest." Naturally if the harvest is great and they are not getting professions of faith made they are not being a good Christian/college student they must be a slacker in the eyes of many IBF churches.
Many times during soul winning the only people that showed up were college students, staff members and Sunday school teachers which all of these were required. Very few regular church members would show up which is a sign of lack of discipleship within the church.
I still remember the look on Tommy Boy's face when nobody at all came forward during an invitation. It was the first time in years and he was shocked. The days and services following this he preached and got on to the college students for not bringing in the sheaves and being slothful in thier Christian service.
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TruthBearer said:
This would be because of the 123 repeat after me scenario especially with the bus kids. One of the classes I worked in while there would have the same kids week after week getting "saved" they would get counted over and over again. This also probably included all the "saved" from college soulwinning, bus route, and other ministries that every college student was required to put down if anyone was saved. I know that there are students that from time to time would put something down even if they didn't have someone saved because if you went a while without anyone on there you would get griped out for it that you were a bad Christian. They also may have included numbers from missionaries or evangelist or the times that he would preach out at other churches.
It was always all about numbers, numbers, numbers. While it is good to track it is not the goal. The goal is a walk with God and a relationship with Him.
I heard about that day and it hasn't gotten any better since then.
T
TruthBearer
Guest
JustABigKid said:
When I would go out soul winning with staff members they would visit 2 maybe 3 people on a Saturday morning and run errands the rest of the time, stop by the mechanics to pick up their vehicle, run by the store to get something or go out for lunch etc, then they would come and talk about how it takes time to lead someone to the Lord and sometimes they would only get one or two visits on a Saturday.
They gave the appearance of practicing what they preached but in reality they did the opposite, everything else was more important.
The only exception to this was Bro. Fisk he would visit 10 -15 people on Saturday and no phone calls he would actually visit with them face to face. Then if he had something to do he would run his errands but only after he made his visits.
It there were more staff members concerned about people's souls like Bro. Fisk was WHBC would have 68,000 in attendance today.
TruthBearer said:
There is no finer man then Bro Fisk! A man who truerly loves souls.
Bro Gomez currently has him working on his staff and I am willing to bet does not appreciate him at all. But CW would never say a word. He just goes about his business of caring for people.
Just me said:
He seems to move around a lot. According to Tales From the Temple, he was briefly at Longview Baptist Temple for a season.
Walt said:
Unfortunately, kind hearted and loving men like him are suckers for people like JAV, Gomez and their kind. But eventually he gets tired of the abuse and he and his dear wife move on and never say a word.
The bad part is they al;ways seem to end up under another abuser!!
T
TruthBearer
Guest
Just me said:
Gomez is becoming another JAV. He parades around with his trophy wife that latched on to him shortly after his first wife died, less than a year if I remember correctly. He goes on several hunting and fishing trips a year and cannot afford to increase Bro Fisk salary.
He can afford to hire younger preacher boys and pay them more. The Fisk are trying to leave now and move to a church in Texas. The only thing holding them back is getting their house sold.
Gomez said he would help them but all he did was make one announcement in church it was for sale.
Bro Fisk like to earn a living like any other man and be able to do things he and his wife like to do but knowing him he would rather be poor and genuinely care for people and help them turn their lives around by discipling them then have all the riches of the world.
He is one of the few remaining men of God in IFB churches, he would never make that claim though. There was a guy that would call him Rev Fisk and it irritated him because he didn't want people to reverence him he wanted them to reverence God.
S
SixGreatKids
Guest
I agree that Bro. Fisk was a blessing. I went out soulwinning with him and saw him in tears, explaining to a lady how to be saved. However, I don't think he's one of the few good men left in the IFB. We aren't IFBX'ers any more, but after 3 years of deputation and speaking in about 240 churches across the US, I think there are many, many great men of God who are humbly serving their churches across this country. These men live godly, humble lives, far from the spotlight of the conferences, knowing their reward will be in heaven. Didn't Jesus say if they are rewarded here, "they have their reward"? I'd rather have my reward from His hand than from any man standing in a pulpit here.
SixGreatKids said:
I agree with you that CW Fisk is not the only good man left in the IFB movement. There truely are good men all around the world staying faithful to the rinciples of the Word of God.
But do not be fooled by a man because of a one time or even just a few meetings with them. JAV and his kind can fool the socks of the world for a time. That is how wolves in sheeps clothing work!!
You are correct in recalling what JAV said, "One day the real you will stand up!!"
S
SixGreatKids
Guest
Very true, there are some very convincing actors out there. Fortunately, before, during, and after college, I've had some godly men...and a wife who have been very helpful in pointing out frauds. JAV had me fooled for a little while, but an older gentleman in the church (now my father in law) pointed out some of the inconsistencies...basically, after that, just wanted to finish out what I started and haven't looked back. The older I get, the easier it is to see flakes...not to say I can't be fooled, just not quite as easily hopefully.