Thoughts on Covington Catholic?

[ALAYMAN]

link



Was the kid(s) in the wrong?  Chaperones?  Is racism involved?  If so, was the racism only on the kid's part, or the Hebrew Nationalists as well?

 

[Ransom]

Was the kid(s) in the wrong?

I have read Nick Sandmann's statement (the smirking kid) that he provided to the media. I have also watched the 1h45m video on YouTube from the Black Hebrew Israelites' perspective. I saw nothing in the video that was inconsistent with Sandmann's side of the story.

So no - unless you consider standing around awkwardly and wearing a MAGA hat to be sinful, he did nothing wrong. On the contrary, he behaved more adult than I might have under the same circumstances. I'm  a millimetre shy of being a pacifist, and I wouldn't want to retaliate physically against the person, but if some native activist got that much in my face with his pagan chanting and drum-whacking, he'd likely be going home with a broken drum.

It's possible that some of the kids got a little mouthy, though if so, it's not readily apparent in the video that I saw, and it was hardly evidence of any kind of systemic bigotry against a native vet.

Chaperones?

Looks like the kids were basically orderly - even when doing their school cheers, they were together in a group and keeping their distance from the BHI harassers. So either they did their job, or didn't have to.

Is racism involved?  If so, was the racism only on the kid's part, or the Hebrew Nationalists as well?

I saw no racism on the part of the students - again, unless you're the sort of person who thinks a MAGA cap is some sort of Magic Racism Hat that turns the wearer into a KKK member (who don't like Roman Catholics much either, last I checked, but I digress).

On the other hand, the BHI shouters were abusing the students and the Indians with overtly racist taunts, and one of the Indian activists told the kids to "go back to Europe." Frankly, if telling a black person to "go back to Africa" is racist, then that is equally so.

So by Monday morning, the truth of the matter, not surprising, turned out to be pretty much the exact opposite of what the media cockroaches were saying on Saturday night. Surprising no one. I'm not  a big Trump fan, but CNN et al don't seem to be doing much to dispel his accusations of being fake-news disseminators.

 

[Ransom]

Update to the above: I was reading an article on The American Conservative in which Rod Dreher (possibly my favourite apostate) posted a ten-minute video, apparently from the perspective of one of the students. Whether a CovCath student or not is impossible to tell; it looks to me like that spot under the Lincoln Memorial might have been a common pick-up area for lots of schools.

This video, to me, paints an even more positive picture of the students. They are heard asking "what's going on?" when Phillips approaches and starts his drumming. When one of the kids starts arguing with the native that told them to "go back to Europe," Nick Sandmann appears to turn around and tell him not to engage. Sandmann, for his part, doesn't look like he's smiling as much as the slanted video suggested - he looks more serious. When the Black Hebrew Racists start ranting about how the US" gives faggots rights," you can hear the collective disapproval of the students who rightly point out that they are also human beings. And, finally, the chaperones are in evidence keeping everyone together and keeping their distance from the racist instigators.

I had little doubt before, but having seen this much more evidence, as far as I'm concerned, these kids are completely vindicated.

 

[ALAYMAN]

Welp, Ransom, that was as thorough coverage of the basics of the story as anyone could've asked, and I don't have any disagreements with you at all so I don't exactly know how to proceed.

Seriously though, a couple of ruminations.  The Hebrew Israelites are clearly attention hounds <ahem>.  They didn't care which group of people were around them as they hurled whatever epithet would stick to whichever group of people was within earshot.  They merely wanted to goad folk.  The MAGA Catholics restrained themselves for almost an entire hour without yielding to the bait.  This led to the only mistake they (actually the chaperones) made in the whole exchange.  If I have charge for a hundred testosterone filled boys in such a combustible situation I would've done my best to shuttle them away from the immediate danger.  That danger potentially was not only to and for their own safety, but for protection from what ultimately did happen with the crap-storm and fallout in this media circus.  Their school had to close for security reasons and death threats are being hurled, among other unwanted attention.  There are people on social media posting anecdotal evidence (a retired Episcopalean soccer referee who reffed 15 minutes from Cov Catholic) about how they are snobs and jerks fueled by an administration that fosters an atmosphere of "toxic masculinity".  References to SC justice Kavanaugh and white privilege, misogynistic religion (due to the obvious support for the right to life), and so much more dung is being hurled through the invective of the insane left at them now.  Idiots posting videos of their Pep Rallies and sporting events showing "blackouts" (and "whiteouts", "Blueouts") lay the fertile unfounded footing claims of racist indoctrination.  Kentuckian congressional representatives calling for a ban on teenagers wearing MAGA hats.  Not sure it's worth all that.

Some other observations/concerns for me relate to the constant habit of the media to run with the story without checking the facts first.  Mainstream media has always been prone to getting the story out before getting scooped by the competitor.  Competition for customer's eyes is more fierce now than ever and with the rise of social media outlets for reporting it seems caution and prudence in fact-checking is thrown to the wind.  But worse than getting the story wrong is the latest left-leaning penchant for not wanting to relent once they have egg on their face.  The blatant hypocrisy in this latest story is prima-facie.  The angle the libtards took was clearly to vilify Trump and his "racism" via these "sycophants" with their clearly bigoted attitudes.  When the full narrative was revealed one would think they'd slither away at worst, but no, they continue to double down on the racist angle, all the while ignoring the most vile and reprehensible racism from the Hebrew Israelites.  Why?  Because it doesn't further their agenda.  It truly is the age of Fake News, and that's okay for those of us who are old enough to think critically and call a spade a spade, but the influence such social and mainstream media outlets have on the young and na?ve is truly worthy of our concern.  Muddled mushy brains eat this pablum up without a second thought, and they are the future of our governance, with unrealistic dreams of free college for everybody and a chicken in every pot.

Lastly, the main reason my initial reaction to the breaking story was sympathy for Philips was that he was elderly and a Vietnam veteran.  That narrative was woven by a crafty media, but the truth is that after further scrutiny his claims of service (bolstered by the media via their narrative) are now suspect.  His claim about being "surrounded" by the boys with no way out are also patently false as observed by observation of the video readily available.  Philips is the one who initiated the confrontation, and he escalated it (admittedly).  The Sandmann kid never moved from where he was, and despite there being 6 to 8 feet of room to Sandmann's left Philips chose to not take that route of "retreat", but rather continued to bang the drum loudly right in the kid's face.  This also is not Philips first brush with protestors where attention may have been his primary motive for his actions.  Regardless of all these inconsistencies there will be no repentance by the radical leftists.  The truth won't be revealed or adequately and accurately covered  by the CNN's of the world, and we know that going into the discussion, but unfortunately there's a whole host of young lemmings that are following them right off the cliff.

 

[brianb]

https://www.foxnews.com/us/violent-threats-against-covington-catholic-high-school-students-under-investigation


Was the kid(s) in the wrong?  Chaperones?  Is racism involved?  If so, was the racism only on the kid's part, or the Hebrew Nationalists as well?

That one guy was smirking. People hate smirking but they are also just desperate to get rid of Trump - the MAGA hats made it about Trump.  If the tables were turned and it had been a liberal smirking would the conservative media have jumped all over that? Probably not. I don't remember such desperation from any one in my lifetime to get rid of a president even with Clinton and the whole impeachment thing.  There was no Clinton Derangement Syndrome. After they couldn't get him impeached they just let it go. Will liberals be doing the same thing if they Mueller can't find anything?

 

[T-Bone]

Phillips is a man with no integrity or honor...I would not believe him if he said the sky was blue. Anyone who will lie to receive a military honor they do not deserve has disqualified themselves from having anything they say believed!  Stolen valor is one of the most dishonest and disgusting thing a person can do!

 

[IFB X-Files]

Our planet plays them in high school.

Sometimes we win, sometimes we lose.

 

[ALAYMAN]

https://www.foxnews.com/us/violent-threats-against-covington-catholic-high-school-students-under-investigation


Was the kid(s) in the wrong?  Chaperones?  Is racism involved?  If so, was the racism only on the kid's part, or the Hebrew Nationalists as well?

That one guy was smirking. People hate smirking but they are also just desperate to get rid of Trump - the MAGA hats made it about Trump.  If the tables were turned and it had been a liberal smirking would the conservative media have jumped all over that? Probably not. I don't remember such desperation from any one in my lifetime to get rid of a president even with Clinton and the whole impeachment thing.  There was no Clinton Derangement Syndrome. After they couldn't get him impeached they just let it go. Will liberals be doing the same thing if they Mueller can't find anything?

Smirking or not, the level of scrutiny and accusation against those Catholic kids don't come close matching the whole narrative for the other players.  The Hebrew Israelites are the real villain here, but not a single mainstream media outlet is about to address that with an iota of  intellectual honesty.

Our planet plays them in high school.

Sometimes we win, sometimes we lose.

By and large are/were they the spoiled/privileged punk kids that some have surmised?

Phillips is a man with no integrity or honor...I would not believe him if he said the sky was blue. Anyone who will lie to receive a military honor they do not deserve has disqualified themselves from having anything they say believed!  Stolen valor is one of the most dishonest and disgusting thing a person can do!

The left-leaners in the media who have since corrected/retracted their original narratives claim that it's not that big of a difference (not worthy of distinction anyway) to say that he was a "Vietnam time vet".  As somebody who has served our contry T-Bone, how would you address that claim that there's no significant difference between the terminology (particularly within the context of this story)?

 

[Binaca Chugger]

If I am the kid, I sue every media station, personality, writher, etc, that broadcasted the false news story for defamation of character, pain and suffering.  Every student at the school should sue every member that offered accusations without the fact because they placed the fear in people that resulted in terroristic threatening of every life at the school.  If I am a parent, I sue the Indian, the media, the hate group and every person who made false claims against my kids.  Don't forget to include pain and suffering in the suit.  Oh, and loss of potential wages.  The kid might have been CEO of the world's largest company and made millions each year for decades, but now, because of the trauma caused by the news media, he won't be able to get that job because a background check will show him as a hatemonger which simply isn't true. 

The only thing that is going to stop the media is when the media is forced to pay for ruining people's lives.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

I think the situation was conflated in such a degree that both sides of the media got it wrong. I viewed most of the 90 minute+ tape and this is what I get from it.

The Black Hebrew group is extremely confrontational, likened to what the Westboro group or Flip Benham is to Evangelicals. They exist to provoke and anger other groups. The fact they were taunting the Covington group and stirring up that crowd a bit elevated tensions to the point where Phillips believed he needed to run interference before physical violence occurred.

Not sure why he chose to face the Covington crowd rather than the Hebrew group of 5. My speculation could have been fear of the Hebrews or perhaps he felt distracting the youth was a better alternative. Whatever the reason, I believe Phillips? intention was to defuse the situation using his cultural means.

Now to the actual confrontation, I believe Sandmann was unethical and even demeaning in his behavior. He says he was trying to diffuse it in his own way by standing in the way and smiling. He is a teenage kid who knew he had a group behind him who had his back. He knew he had youth on his side and even crowd numbers, had there been a physical altercation. I think this emboldened him to do what he did.

My issue is Sandmann?s body language. He said what he meant to say without speaking a word. The look he gave was that of condescension, derision and entitlement. He was telling Phillips that his dignity, cause or even existence didn?t matter to him (or his crowd). The group made Phillips out as a joke. Sandmann was the epitome of disrespect and entitlement.

Was it racist? Can?t say for sure. Would he have done the same thing had there been white people protesting, say, capital punishment? Or even protesting the wall? I probably doubt it but there is no way to prove it. He had crowd numbers behind him, physical strength advantage and he chose to use it to confront rather than back away, because he KNEW how it would make himself look: entitled and ?better? than Phillips.

It was simply an immature, teenage stunt, probably one I would have done in high school too. But it was publicly disrespectful to the man and his culture. Maybe he did, but I do not recall reading anywhere where Sandmann actually apologized to Phillips for his threatening him (through body language). If Sandmann were doing an actual protest and it was civil disobedience/confrontation, that is one thing. But he wasn?t. There was nothing Phillips was doing which Sandmann was protesting, other than walking in an area which Phillips had already legally secured. Sandmann never (as far I know and I am willing to be corrected) apologized.

If someone came out and said I threatened him and that wasn?t my intent, I would simply apologize and say I was wrong in my demeanor and that I had no intention of being disrespectful. But then again, I did stupid, immature stuff publicly as a teenager also.

All that to say, I think he should not be demonized nor should he be considered heroic. I think he should, however, be humbled enough to publicly apologize to Phillips (now that the matter is of public nature and he is doing TV interviews) and take it as a step of growth into maturity. But with his PR firm, White House invitation and crazy amount of folks defending his behavior, I fear it will only increase his feelings of entitlement and privilege.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

One more point to add:

How would the right-wing media be reporting the story had the Hebrews been Westboro folks and the Covington students been Black? Would Sandmann have been given a PR firm had he been Black? Would right-wing media outlets be defending him as being a victim of media destruction? Would the group have been invited to the White House for their confronting Phillips the way he did? Or perhaps, would the police have been called?

Just a couple of rhetorical questions to point out how something non-racial really does have racial undertones.

 

[IFB X-Files]

I think the situation was conflated in such a degree that both sides of the media got it wrong. I viewed most of the 90 minute+ tape and this is what I get from it.

The Black Hebrew group is extremely confrontational, likened to what the Westboro group or Flip Benham is to Evangelicals. They exist to provoke and anger other groups. The fact they were taunting the Covington group and stirring up that crowd a bit elevated tensions to the point where Phillips believed he needed to run interference before physical violence occurred.

Not sure why he chose to face the Covington crowd rather than the Hebrew group of 5. My speculation could have been fear of the Hebrews or perhaps he felt distracting the youth was a better alternative. Whatever the reason, I believe Phillips? intention was to defuse the situation using his cultural means.

Now to the actual confrontation, I believe Sandmann was unethical and even demeaning in his behavior. He says he was trying to diffuse it in his own way by standing in the way and smiling. He is a teenage kid who knew he had a group behind him who had his back. He knew he had youth on his side and even crowd numbers, had there been a physical altercation. I think this emboldened him to do what he did.

My issue is Sandmann?s body language. He said what he meant to say without speaking a word. The look he gave was that of condescension, derision and entitlement. He was telling Phillips that his dignity, cause or even existence didn?t matter to him (or his crowd). The group made Phillips out as a joke. Sandmann was the epitome of disrespect and entitlement.

Was it racist? Can?t say for sure. Would he have done the same thing had there been white people protesting, say, capital punishment? Or even protesting the wall? I probably doubt it but there is no way to prove it. He had crowd numbers behind him, physical strength advantage and he chose to use it to confront rather than back away, because he KNEW how it would make himself look: entitled and ?better? than Phillips.

It was simply an immature, teenage stunt, probably one I would have done in high school too. But it was publicly disrespectful to the man and his culture. Maybe he did, but I do not recall reading anywhere where Sandmann actually apologized to Phillips for his threatening him (through body language). If Sandmann were doing an actual protest and it was civil disobedience/confrontation, that is one thing. But he wasn?t. There was nothing Phillips was doing which Sandmann was protesting, other than walking in an area which Phillips had already legally secured. Sandmann never (as far I know and I am willing to be corrected) apologized.

If someone came out and said I threatened him and that wasn?t my intent, I would simply apologize and say I was wrong in my demeanor and that I had no intention of being disrespectful. But then again, I did stupid, immature stuff publicly as a teenager also.

All that to say, I think he should not be demonized nor should he be considered heroic. I think he should, however, be humbled enough to publicly apologize to Phillips (now that the matter is of public nature and he is doing TV interviews) and take it as a step of growth into maturity. But with his PR firm, White House invitation and crazy amount of folks defending his behavior, I fear it will only increase his feelings of entitlement and privilege.

It's amazing how high school students waiting for their bus can bring out the idiocy in some people.

 

[FSSL]

It's amazing how high school students waiting for their bus can bring out the idiocy in some people.

Boom!

 

[ALAYMAN]

I think the situation was conflated in such a degree that both sides of the media got it wrong. I viewed most of the 90 minute+ tape and this is what I get from it.....

All that to say, I think he should not be demonized nor should he be considered heroic. I think he should, however, be humbled enough to publicly apologize to Phillips (now that the matter is of public nature and he is doing TV interviews) and take it as a step of growth into maturity. But with his PR firm, White House invitation and crazy amount of folks defending his behavior, I fear it will only increase his feelings of entitlement and privilege.

For the most part I think that was a fair and balanced take on the matter, most of which I would agree with.  A few quick thoughts on your post.  My speculative guess about Phillips' motive for going after the boys was possibly some of what you said (Covington outnumbering the black folk) but also, and maybe more likely, due to their being Roman Catholic.  The very day after this fiasco Phillips and his posse was at a R.C. Cathedral in D.C. and tried to make their way drumming into a Mass service.  They were caught on film strategizing on how to get into the service without being noticed, all with the ultimate intent of protesting agains the R.C. folk for what had transpired the previous day.  How does that fit the narrative of a respectful and wise peacemaker?

As far as Sandmann standing in the way of a property that Phillips had already "legally secured", that is not accurate.  He didn't have a permit to take his show up the steps via insisting others move out of his way.  That is excessively presumptuous.

As for your addendum, Sandmann wouldn't have had to invoke his supposed white privilege if the Hebrew Israelites wouldn't have been going out of their way to provoke any and everything that moved (particularly all the crackers), nor would he have had to utilize his middle class resources of Phillips would have not walked up into and through the crowd of boys while banging an ambiguous peace chant inches from their face.  Plenty of blame to go around in this one, including IMNSHO the slow-to-act chaperones who should have had the kids wait for their busses a little further from the freak show.  At the end of the day the boys could be coached/taught a lesson on civics, as well as how to deal with folk better who are trying to bait them, but IMHO the who ordeal is much ado about nothing, and a whole lot of political posturing by both sides.

 

[Twisted]

My speculative guess about Phillips' motive for going after the boys was possibly... due to their being Roman Catholic. 

I haven't wasted my time watching any of the videos, but please tell me how he knew these children, waiting for a bus, were Catholic?

Never mind answering.  I'm sick of hearing adults blame kids for what happens when adult gangs gang up on them.  Sick.

 

[Ransom]

My speculative guess about Phillips' motive for going after the boys was possibly some of what you said (Covington outnumbering the black folk) but also, and maybe more likely, due to their being Roman Catholic. 

I think you probably have the cart before the horse here. More likely, he found out after the fact they were RC (thanks to news coverage) and went after the basilica in response.

 

[Ransom]

Sandmann never (as far I know and I am willing to be corrected) apologized.

Apologize for what? Being drummed at while wearing the Magic Hat of Triggering?

 

[ALAYMAN]

My speculative guess about Phillips' motive for going after the boys was possibly... due to their being Roman Catholic. 

I haven't wasted my time watching any of the videos, but please tell me how he knew these children, waiting for a bus, were Catholic?

It is possible that the Native Americans overheard the pejorative terms the Hebrew Israelites were hurling and put two and two together, or figured out who they were from the right to life march happenings, but most likely observed the boys being chaperoned by the priest (who was visible on the video).

 

[ALAYMAN]

My speculative guess about Phillips' motive for going after the boys was possibly some of what you said (Covington outnumbering the black folk) but also, and maybe more likely, due to their being Roman Catholic. 

I think you probably have the cart before the horse here. More likely, he found out after the fact they were RC (thanks to news coverage) and went after the basilica in response.

There's no doubt (in my mind) that whether or not he knew the Covington boys were Catholic before he went into the crowd and caused this fracas at the Lincolcn Monument that he definitely went to the basilica the next day as a response to Sandmann et al reaction (and subsequent news coverage) to him.  I've read quite a bit about the circumstances since this first happened, and I could be conflating some memories of all I have read, but I think I did see/hear that prior to Phillips' attempted entry into the basilica that he and his buddies were caught on video (of their own recording I believe) talking about their motive as it related to the prior day's events.

 

[IFB X-Files]

Sandmann never (as far I know and I am willing to be corrected) apologized.

Apologize for what? Being drummed at while wearing the Magic Hat of Triggering?

Fix your quote.  I never said that.