"TULIP"

[Mr. Hall]

Reading through a thread on Calvinism I came upon the following explanation of "unconditional election," the "U" in "TULIP."

"Election is the sovereign act of God the Father choosing specific individuals out from the entire body of condemned and fallen humanity. These individuals were chosen before the foundations of the universe and not as a result of any foreseen merit or activity or decision on their part. These chosen or elect individuals are purposed to become monuments to the Father's love for all of eternity."

"These individuals were chosen before the foundations of the universe...." 

The universe is thought to be close to 14 billion years old.  I'm trying to picture its "Creator" back then planning the future existence of billions of "totally depraved" (that's the "T" in "TULIP") decaying bundles of protoplasm on an insignificant speck of a yet to be created planet, and choosing, 14 billion years ago, a tiny fraction of these bundles (the "elect") for redemption. 

No offense, but does the overwhelming absurdity of such an idea ever trouble anyone during their quiet moments?


$

 

[Izdaari]

It is absurd but it doesn't bother me because I don't believe it.

 

[rsc2a]

An eternal Creator wouldn't have just been planning to save "decaying bundles of protoplasm" 14 billion years later.

An eternal Creator would simultaneously be at His creation 14 billion years later saving those specks of protoplasm.

Additionally, this eternal Creator would also simultaneously be at His creation 14 billion years past even that point, enjoying the praise of His people.

 

[Mr. Hall]

rsc2A:

"An eternal Creator wouldn't have just been planning to save "decaying bundles of protoplasm" 14 billion years later.

An eternal Creator would simultaneously be at His creation 14 billion years later saving those specks of protoplasm.

Additionally, this eternal Creator would also simultaneously be at His creation 14 billion years past even that point, enjoying the praise of His people."

Don't you find this notion a little bizarre, i.e., that a "Creator" who exists beyond and is unconstrained by the dimension of time would want or need the "praise" of a tiny fraction of some insignificant beings on an obscure little rocky sphere?

 

[rsc2a]

Don't you find this notion a little bizarre, i.e., that a "Creator" who exists beyond and is unconstrained by the dimension of time would want or need the "praise" of a tiny fraction of some insignificant beings on an obscure little rocky sphere?

No more bizarre than the idea that human beings who have the overwhelming vastness of nature, energetic and loving children, millions upon millions of excellent books, fine artwork, outstanding music, and neighbors they could be sharing their life with would waste more than five hours a day watching a moving picture box.

 

[Castor Muscular]

Reading through a thread on Calvinism I came upon the following explanation of "unconditional election," the "U" in "TULIP."

"Election is the sovereign act of God the Father choosing specific individuals out from the entire body of condemned and fallen humanity. These individuals were chosen before the foundations of the universe and not as a result of any foreseen merit or activity or decision on their part. These chosen or elect individuals are purposed to become monuments to the Father's love for all of eternity."

"These individuals were chosen before the foundations of the universe...." 

The universe is thought to be close to 14 billion years old.  I'm trying to picture its "Creator" back then planning the future existence of billions of "totally depraved" (that's the "T" in "TULIP") decaying bundles of protoplasm on an insignificant speck of a yet to be created planet, and choosing, 14 billion years ago, a tiny fraction of these bundles (the "elect") for redemption. 

No offense, but does the overwhelming absurdity of such an idea ever trouble anyone during their quiet moments?


$

The only thing more absurd is a decaying bundle of protoplasm thinking he is smart enough and knows enough about the universe to question God's motives.

 

[Mr. Hall]

Castor Muscular:

"The only thing more absurd is a decaying bundle of protoplasm thinking he is smart enough and knows enough about the universe to question God's motives."

I see.  So you acknowledge that the concept of "Unconditional Election" as described earlier is absurd.

I don't question "God's motives."  Unlike many here, I don't pretend to know what those "motives" are or if there are any to begin with.  If there is a conscious creative force out there it's beyond my perception and comprehension.

 

[Castor Muscular]

Castor Muscular:

"The only thing more absurd is a decaying bundle of protoplasm thinking he is smart enough and knows enough about the universe to question God's motives."

I see.  So you acknowledge that the concept of "Unconditional Election" as described earlier is absurd.

I don't question "God's motives."  Unlike many here, I don't pretend to know what those "motives" are or if there are any to begin with.  If there is a conscious creative force out there it's beyond my perception and comprehension.

No, your description of unconditional election is absurd and pre-supposes evolution. 

 

[Mr. Hall]

Castor Muscular

"No, your description of unconditional election is absurd and pre-supposes evolution."

Of course my description is absurd.  It's supposed to be.  It's an abstraction and pre-supposes nothing.  But it's based on and pretty much in line with the following extract from another thread:

"Election is the sovereign act of God the Father choosing specific individuals out from the entire body of condemned and fallen humanity. These individuals were chosen before the foundations of the universe and not as a result of any foreseen merit or activity or decision on their part. These chosen or elect individuals are purposed to become monuments to the Father's love for all of eternity."

I don't know how any thinking person can believe such a thing.

 

[Castor Muscular]

Castor Muscular

"No, your description of unconditional election is absurd and pre-supposes evolution."

Of course my description is absurd.  It's supposed to be.  It's an abstraction and pre-supposes nothing.  But it's based on and pretty much in line with the following extract from another thread:

"Election is the sovereign act of God the Father choosing specific individuals out from the entire body of condemned and fallen humanity. These individuals were chosen before the foundations of the universe and not as a result of any foreseen merit or activity or decision on their part. These chosen or elect individuals are purposed to become monuments to the Father's love for all of eternity."

I don't know how any thinking person can believe such a thing.

I believe it. 

 

[AresMan]

rsc2A:

"An eternal Creator wouldn't have just been planning to save "decaying bundles of protoplasm" 14 billion years later.

An eternal Creator would simultaneously be at His creation 14 billion years later saving those specks of protoplasm.

Additionally, this eternal Creator would also simultaneously be at His creation 14 billion years past even that point, enjoying the praise of His people."

Don't you find this notion a little bizarre, i.e., that a "Creator" who exists beyond and is unconstrained by the dimension of time would want or need the "praise" of a tiny fraction of some insignificant beings on an obscure little rocky sphere?

If He created them, why wouldn't He want their praise?

 

[Izdaari]

rsc2A:

"An eternal Creator wouldn't have just been planning to save "decaying bundles of protoplasm" 14 billion years later.

An eternal Creator would simultaneously be at His creation 14 billion years later saving those specks of protoplasm.

Additionally, this eternal Creator would also simultaneously be at His creation 14 billion years past even that point, enjoying the praise of His people."

Don't you find this notion a little bizarre, i.e., that a "Creator" who exists beyond and is unconstrained by the dimension of time would want or need the "praise" of a tiny fraction of some insignificant beings on an obscure little rocky sphere?

I don't actually think He does. I think He asks for it because He knows it gets us out of a selfish mindset, which isn't easy or natural for us. IOW, He doesn't want our praise because of what it does for Him, but because of what it does for us. That is only my personal theory. I don't have anything other than intuition to back it up.

 

[Castor Muscular]

rsc2A:

"An eternal Creator wouldn't have just been planning to save "decaying bundles of protoplasm" 14 billion years later.

An eternal Creator would simultaneously be at His creation 14 billion years later saving those specks of protoplasm.

Additionally, this eternal Creator would also simultaneously be at His creation 14 billion years past even that point, enjoying the praise of His people."

Don't you find this notion a little bizarre, i.e., that a "Creator" who exists beyond and is unconstrained by the dimension of time would want or need the "praise" of a tiny fraction of some insignificant beings on an obscure little rocky sphere?

I don't actually think He does. I think He asks for it because He knows it gets us out of a selfish mindset, which isn't easy or natural for us. IOW, He doesn't want our praise because of what it does for Him, but because of what it does for us. That is only my personal theory. I don't have anything other than intuition to back it up.

I think (and I think the Bible bears this out) that God's primary interest is in us KNOWING Him.  The praise follows naturally.