What could have been done?

Norefund

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In another thread, the assertion was made that EL was concerned about the erratic JS behavior/doctrines/preaching etc. for at least a year before the events that ultimately lead to his incarceration.

My question: Who could have dethroned JS or JH? With what seems obvious to everyone now, and presuming some insiders at FBC probably had greater insight than us, what could have been done?

I maintain that no one could have dethroned JH. No one. He was too worshipped by the members. The only time it was even brought up, JH threatened to start a new church and everyone knew the members would follow him if he did. Did JS have that same devotion?

Seriously, who could have really done anything and what is it that could have been done? Not what should have been done- that part is pretty easy - but what actually could have been done and would have worked.

Your thoughts?
 

Sherryh

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Norefund, you're up early on a Saturday so you've been thinking about this for a while. You have to keep talking and that is going to lead you to the person hopefully its a deacon/staff member that says that's enough...enough is enough!! A meeting is called and the rest is history. But I watch Cold Justice you had better do your homework and have your evidence or you will be thrown under the bus....
 

Norefund

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I'm up early every morning. I sleep very well and, as I age, sleeping in just doesn't happen. I hadn't read the forum much this week so I am catching up this morning.

I am not troubled by the subject. I just wonder about the practicality of the situation. The prevailing thought is that JW has to move very slowly to not upset the FBC system and slowly change things for the better. That may be true. It just made me think that we may be applying a practical approach to JW's situation while not applying that same practicality to others in FBC leadership through the years. regardless of what someone wanted to do, what could practically be done?

 

fishinnut

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My thoughts:

Not much could happen without a majority of the deacon board (lay leaders) standing up to the pastor.

Ten years ago I was in a good well known (in our area) IFB church where a solid pastor decided to leave & who took it upon himself to insist that his HAC grad assistant pastor be installed as the new pastor. He won out & the new guy became pastor within a few months he began running off all the longstanding members & leaders who he said were loyal to the old pastor who had left. The problem was that he was adding no new members, no new converts. The old crowd had the attitude and said that they were there before he got there & would be there after he left.

The deacons didn't have the guts to stand up to him.

I did confront him personally & left.

Most of those old members & deacons, gave up & left.

After the new guy took the church down to about a third of what had been there when he was railroaded in as pastor, he left. He demanded a generous multi-month severance package leaving the church in dire financial straits. A few of the old members have returned to what is left & that's helped keep them afloat financially. They have a new pastor & the HAC grad has another church in another state.

He had done nothing criminal like JS so the lay leaders couldn't conjure up the courage to confront the needless power grab, lack of leadership, self glorification & constant browbeating preaching of the new pastor.

All that to again say that unless the majority of the lay leadership stands up against the pastor the junk continues.

Some well known preacher said, "Everything rises & falls on leadership."
 

qwerty

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My guess is if EL was concerned, he would not have gone to bat for Schaap and lie to his own family, friends, and coworkers the Sunday morning after it hit the fan.

EL knew everything before he spoke to the church that Sunday, including the contents of the pictures that were discovered, the bizarre staff meeting about loyalty after the pictures were discovered, the mismanagement of monies donated. Even weeks and months after, had one of the staff members that took the photos directly to the police "laid off" after decades of service.

EL has no skills outside IFBdom. His entire goal was the same as Schaap's as as far as I am concerned, self-preservation.
 

Techmedic

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I would really like to know what EL had been saying up to the JS fiasco, I would also like to know more about that "meeting" that everyone was brought in on after the pics were discovered.... Also what role did Clyde Wolfe play that they got rid of him so fast, he admitted he was told to leave that they didn't want him there anymore, I felt bad for him you could clearly see that it still upset him after 40 years to be told leave we don't want you here anymore.
 

qwerty

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Techmedic said:
Also what role did Clyde Wolfe play that they got rid of him so fast, he admitted he was told to leave that they didn't want him there anymore, I felt bad for him you could clearly see that it still upset him after 40 years to be told leave we don't want you here anymore.
See my post above....
 

Mathew Ward

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I think the only way to dethrone Jackie-boy would have been by paying off the KGB hit squad that was after him for all thoses years.
 

Sherryh

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qwerty & techmedic, unknown what role CW played its sobering to be casted out of something you loved and worked for 40 years.....its a miracle you want to go to church again.....

EL will get his payday.....someday!!I just watched a ladies meetings and thought why didn't someone invited CS ....
 

Bruh

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In the minds of FBCH, did anything need to be done? Is a better question.
 

Fresh Air

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Bruh said:
In the minds of FBCH, did anything need to be done? Is a better question.
That isn't difficult to figure out. They were voting with their feet and their pocketbook in the three or four years prior to his implosion.
 

fishinnut

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Bruh said:
In the minds of FBCH, did anything need to be done? Is a better question.
Part of the reason JS said from the pulpit that he hated the FFF was people like me were calling him out on junk he was spewing from the pulpit & calling out the deacons for not taking him on for it.
 

Bruh

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Tom Brennan said:
Bruh said:
In the minds of FBCH, did anything need to be done? Is a better question.
That isn't difficult to figure out. They were voting with their feet and their pocketbook in the three or four years prior to his implosion.
I've always wondered if this is the correct response?  Are not the members responsible for the body they are joined to? 

As I believe I am strict on doctrine, if a church has correct doctrine but the same church does not handle the finances responsibly what is the responsibility of the members?
 

RAIDER

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At a "normal" church a church member with an issue can sit down with the pastor and talk.  The average church member at FBCH had few choices.  I believe the pastors were probably unapproachable on these type issues.  Personally, I think the church member should have tried to meet with a few of the deacons.  Of course, in the FBCH thought pattern this would probably have been tough.



 

kaba

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I think unless the evidence (photos) are hitting them (Deacons-church members-staff)in the face, they will do nothing! If a single person complains or a few people you get labeled bitter or gossipping! Recently on a facebook someone mentioned how they miss Jack Schaap as Pastor. The evidence is out there for everyone to see, and yet they keep the blinders on. Of course after I posted a few comments about Jack Schapp the whole post got deleted. Cover up continues-Their heads are deeper in the sand!! Or up someones butt!!
 

RAIDER

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I know that the majority of us are making "long distance" suggestions.  We were not physically there during Schaap's time as pastor.  I know it sometimes makes a difference.

On the other hand, we read the heresy in Schaap's books.  We heard sermons where obvious stupidity was being preached.  We saw him go to bizarre places in his thought pattern.  We heard the stories of his temper tantrums and foul language.  We all watched as things became stranger and stranger.

We kept wondering, "How can the staff and deacons allow this to continue?"  "Why is there not a great exodus of staff members and deacons?"  To this day I still haven't been able to wrap my mind around it. 
 

Smellin Coffee

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RAIDER said:
To this day I still haven't been able to wrap my mind around it.
Dude, do the HACker thing and weave those two hairs!
 

Bruh

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RAIDER said:
I know that the majority of us are making "long distance" suggestions.  We were not physically there during Schaap's time as pastor.  I know it sometimes makes a difference.

On the other hand, we read the heresy in Schaap's books.  We heard sermons where obvious stupidity was being preached.  We saw him go to bizarre places in his thought pattern.  We heard the stories of his temper tantrums and foul language.  We all watched as things became stranger and stranger.

We kept wondering, "How can the staff and deacons allow this to continue?"  "Why is there not a great exodus of staff members and deacons?"  To this day I still haven't been able to wrap my mind around it.
Would you agree that they were taught by JH not to question the pastor? And this is the reason they did nothing?
 

fishinnut

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RAIDER said:
I know that the majority of us are making "long distance" suggestions.  We were not physically there during Schaap's time as pastor.  I know it sometimes makes a difference.

On the other hand, we read the heresy in Schaap's books.  We heard sermons where obvious stupidity was being preached.  We saw him go to bizarre places in his thought pattern.  We heard the stories of his temper tantrums and foul language.  We all watched as things became stranger and stranger.

We kept wondering, "How can the staff and deacons allow this to continue?"  "Why is there not a great exodus of staff members and deacons?"  To this day I still haven't been able to wrap my mind around it.
What he said.....

The same type of thing is happening in our US congress with the present Prez.

Fear of speaking out, standing up & bucking the trends allows for nothing to occur but more bizarre behaviors on the part of headstrong bad leadership.
 

Smellin Coffee

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fishinnut said:
RAIDER said:
I know that the majority of us are making "long distance" suggestions.  We were not physically there during Schaap's time as pastor.  I know it sometimes makes a difference.

On the other hand, we read the heresy in Schaap's books.  We heard sermons where obvious stupidity was being preached.  We saw him go to bizarre places in his thought pattern.  We heard the stories of his temper tantrums and foul language.  We all watched as things became stranger and stranger.

We kept wondering, "How can the staff and deacons allow this to continue?"  "Why is there not a great exodus of staff members and deacons?"  To this day I still haven't been able to wrap my mind around it.
What he said.....

The same type of thing is happening in our US congress with the present Prez.

Fear of speaking out, standing up & bucking the trends allows for nothing to occur to but more bizarre behaviors on the part of headstrong bad leadership.
I disagree. Congress won't stand up against the Prez because they truly are all about the talk and not the walk. Take abortion for example. They could have gone to war with Obama the day before his speech on the partial-birth abortion bill but THEY backed it out. Why? I believe BECAUSE ABORTION BENEFITS THE GOP! They can't get abortion rescinded because it will create larger need for government dependence and they (allegedly) want to limit that.

The GOP is using Christians as patsies. I've no doubt there are some sincere Republicans, moreso on local levels, but they have to remain loyal to the party's agenda. If they push Obama too hard without backing down (even WHEN they are in the right), they will have to abide by the changes they are claiming they are pulling for and that would be disastrous for their own platform.

Concerning FBC, I would think people wouldn't stand up against leadership simply because of fear. Fear of losing family. Fear of losing friends. Fear of losing ministry opportunities. Fear of "bringing down" a large ministry "God is using". Fear of no place to go. Fear of damaged reputation. Fear of job loss (in some cases). Fear of losing personal power.

I guess I could go on but one can get the picture. :)
 
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