What could have been done?

[fishinnut]

I know that the majority of us are making "long distance" suggestions.  We were not physically there during Schaap's time as pastor.  I know it sometimes makes a difference.

On the other hand, we read the heresy in Schaap's books.  We heard sermons where obvious stupidity was being preached.  We saw him go to bizarre places in his thought pattern.  We heard the stories of his temper tantrums and foul language.  We all watched as things became stranger and stranger.

We kept wondering, "How can the staff and deacons allow this to continue?"  "Why is there not a great exodus of staff members and deacons?"  To this day I still haven't been able to wrap my mind around it.

What he said.....

The same type of thing is happening in our US congress with the present Prez.

Fear of speaking out, standing up & bucking the trends allows for nothing to occur to but more bizarre behaviors on the part of headstrong bad leadership.

I disagree. Congress won't stand up against the Prez because they truly are all about the talk and not the walk. Take abortion for example. They could have gone to war with Obama the day before his speech on the partial-birth abortion bill but THEY backed it out. Why? I believe BECAUSE ABORTION BENEFITS THE GOP! They can't get abortion rescinded because it will create larger need for government dependence and they (allegedly) want to limit that.

The GOP is using Christians as patsies. I've no doubt there are some sincere Republicans, moreso on local levels, but they have to remain loyal to the party's agenda. If they push Obama too hard without backing down (even WHEN they are in the right), they will have to abide by the changes they are claiming they are pulling for and that would be disastrous for their own platform.

Concerning FBC, I would think people wouldn't stand up against leadership simply because of fear. Fear of losing family. Fear of losing friends. Fear of losing ministry opportunities. Fear of "bringing down" a large ministry "God is using". Fear of no place to go. Fear of damaged reputation. Fear of job loss (in some cases). Fear of losing personal power.

I guess I could go on but one can get the picture.

It's always about fear.....when anyone in govt. or a church leader/staff member/church member will not buck the direction the wrong-headed determination & direction of a Prez or pastor.

Joshuas & Calebs are few & far between.

 

[Bravo]

I know that the majority of us are making "long distance" suggestions.  We were not physically there during Schaap's time as pastor.  I know it sometimes makes a difference.

On the other hand, we read the heresy in Schaap's books.  We heard sermons where obvious stupidity was being preached.  We saw him go to bizarre places in his thought pattern.  We heard the stories of his temper tantrums and foul language.  We all watched as things became stranger and stranger.

We kept wondering, "How can the staff and deacons allow this to continue?"  "Why is there not a great exodus of staff members and deacons?"  To this day I still haven't been able to wrap my mind around it.

But there was a great exodus of people. People would just not be there anymore. It is to the point where the greeting from some is, "Oh you still go here?" Obviously there's still a good number,... But it is noticeable. One friend commented that many who left are now at Bethel but I wouldn't personally know.

A casual look around the auditorium will reveal that a good number of people are no longer there. Then there are some that now only go Sunday morning or only Sunday school.

 

[fishinnut]

I know that the majority of us are making "long distance" suggestions.  We were not physically there during Schaap's time as pastor.  I know it sometimes makes a difference.

On the other hand, we read the heresy in Schaap's books.  We heard sermons where obvious stupidity was being preached.  We saw him go to bizarre places in his thought pattern.  We heard the stories of his temper tantrums and foul language.  We all watched as things became stranger and stranger.

We kept wondering, "How can the staff and deacons allow this to continue?"  "Why is there not a great exodus of staff members and deacons?"  To this day I still haven't been able to wrap my mind around it.

But there was a great exodus of people. People would just not be there anymore. It is to the point where the greeting is, "Oh you still go here?"

Good to know.

 

[Fresh Air]

Would you agree that they were taught by JH not to question the pastor? And this is the reason they did nothing?

Absolutely. I do not believe Bro. Hyles was guilty of adultery, et al, but amongst his other flaws he built a system that allowed the next pastor to run right of a cliff while a church full of people cheered.

 

[RAIDER]

I know that the majority of us are making "long distance" suggestions.  We were not physically there during Schaap's time as pastor.  I know it sometimes makes a difference.

On the other hand, we read the heresy in Schaap's books.  We heard sermons where obvious stupidity was being preached.  We saw him go to bizarre places in his thought pattern.  We heard the stories of his temper tantrums and foul language.  We all watched as things became stranger and stranger.

We kept wondering, "How can the staff and deacons allow this to continue?"  "Why is there not a great exodus of staff members and deacons?"  To this day I still haven't been able to wrap my mind around it.

Would you agree that they were taught by JH not to question the pastor? And this is the reason they did nothing?

I would agree with you to a point.  When Schaap reached the "bizarre" level I would think that another level of common sense would have kicked in.  When the foul language started you would think the questioning would have started.

 

[RAIDER]

I know that the majority of us are making "long distance" suggestions.  We were not physically there during Schaap's time as pastor.  I know it sometimes makes a difference.

On the other hand, we read the heresy in Schaap's books.  We heard sermons where obvious stupidity was being preached.  We saw him go to bizarre places in his thought pattern.  We heard the stories of his temper tantrums and foul language.  We all watched as things became stranger and stranger.

We kept wondering, "How can the staff and deacons allow this to continue?"  "Why is there not a great exodus of staff members and deacons?"  To this day I still haven't been able to wrap my mind around it.

But there was a great exodus of people. People would just not be there anymore. It is to the point where the greeting from some is, "Oh you still go here?" Obviously there's still a good number,... But it is noticeable. One friend commented that many who left are now at Bethel but I wouldn't personally know.

A casual look around the auditorium will reveal that a good number of people are no longer there. Then there are some that now only go Sunday morning or only Sunday school.

I was aiming more at the staff and deacons.  Did very many of them resign and leave while Schaap was still pastoring?

 

[deertracks]

I agree Raider when the foul language started that should have opened everyone's eyes. You can preach bad doctrine but still have a heart for souls and the excuses could be made. BUT when bad language including the bomb,without sincere head slap and a I'm sorry I don't understand why I said that, happens then you are without excuse for not opening your eyes. That is my biggest problem with Marshall and Lapina. I believe these guys would call me a friend but I haven't had the opportunity to ask them what they were thinking but I will. Lapina shortly and Marshall some day.

 

[cast.sheep]

I know that the majority of us are making "long distance" suggestions.  We were not physically there during Schaap's time as pastor.  I know it sometimes makes a difference.

On the other hand, we read the heresy in Schaap's books.  We heard sermons where obvious stupidity was being preached.  We saw him go to bizarre places in his thought pattern.  We heard the stories of his temper tantrums and foul language.  We all watched as things became stranger and stranger.

We kept wondering, "How can the staff and deacons allow this to continue?"  "Why is there not a great exodus of staff members and deacons?"  To this day I still haven't been able to wrap my mind around it.

But there was a great exodus of people. People would just not be there anymore. It is to the point where the greeting from some is, "Oh you still go here?" Obviously there's still a good number,... But it is noticeable. One friend commented that many who left are now at Bethel but I wouldn't personally know.

A casual look around the auditorium will reveal that a good number of people are no longer there. Then there are some that now only go Sunday morning or only Sunday school.

I was aiming more at the staff and deacons.  Did very many of them resign and leave while Schaap was still pastoring?

I keep saying the same thing and it's as if no one is listening.  Stop trying to figure out why people didn't leave.  Unless you were there, you can't possibly understand!  Raider, it seems to me that you cringe when people refer to the place as a "cult" and yet, at the same time, you don't "get" why people stayed!  We were brainwashed!!!!!  Good people were brainwashed!  It's so much easier to see it all from "out here", but when you are there, you don't see it!  Everybody just STOP trying to figure it out!  Those of us who were there for DECADES keep trying so hard to explain it and we are getting nowhere!  Unless you were there and experienced it....not for just a few years...but for DECADES...you can't possibly understand!!!!!!!  You come down on people who are bitter, but you don't get it!  Yes, we should have figured it out!  And we were starting to....but we were taught dependence on the Mog, not on the Word of God.  According to the pastor, he was smarter than us.  He told us regularly.  You don't "get" why we didn't see it.  If I hadn't experienced it, I probably wouldn't "get" it either!  The Holy Spirit was an entity in word only.  We didn't need the Holy Spirit!  There were rules that covered every single thing He could have possibly convicted us of...and lots more!  The Mog told us what to believe and he convinced us USING the Word of God!!!!!!!!  Does that sound like a cult to you????  Now that I'm gone, it does to me! 

Just be thankful that YOU didn't experience what we did.  Be thankful that you got out before it happened to you.  Because it would have.  Whether you believe it or not...it would have. 

It's so frustrating trying to explain the inexplicable. 

 

[cast.sheep]

I agree Raider when the foul language started that should have opened everyone's eyes. You can preach bad doctrine but still have a heart for souls and the excuses could be made. BUT when bad language including the bomb,without sincere head slap and a I'm sorry I don't understand why I said that, happens then you are without excuse for not opening your eyes. That is my biggest problem with Marshall and Lapina. I believe these guys would call me a friend but I haven't had the opportunity to ask them what they were thinking but I will. Lapina shortly and Marshall some day.

It's not like he used the "F" bomb from the pulpit.  The average church member had no idea that was happening.  And when we DID hear rumors about it, they were just that...rumors. 

I'm tired of people acting like we were complete idiots.  We were good, sincere people who just wanted to serve the Lord.  That's why we went to Hyles-Anderson in the first place. 

They say that if you put a frog into a pot of boiling water,
it will leap out right away to escape the danger.
But, if you put a frog in a kettle that is filled with water that is cool and pleasant,
and then you gradually heat the kettle until it starts boiling,
the frog will not become aware of the threat until it is too late.
The frog's survival instincts are geared towards detecting sudden changes.

That pretty much explains it.  We were frogs.  Ok.  We weren't idiots.  We were frogs. haha!  And we started out in what we thought was a safe environment.

 

[RAIDER]

I agree Raider when the foul language started that should have opened everyone's eyes. You can preach bad doctrine but still have a heart for souls and the excuses could be made. BUT when bad language including the bomb,without sincere head slap and a I'm sorry I don't understand why I said that, happens then you are without excuse for not opening your eyes. That is my biggest problem with Marshall and Lapina. I believe these guys would call me a friend but I haven't had the opportunity to ask them what they were thinking but I will. Lapina shortly and Marshall some day.

It's not like he used the "F" bomb from the pulpit.  The average church member had no idea that was happening.  And when we DID hear rumors about it, they were just that...rumors. 

I'm tired of people acting like we were complete idiots.

I am talking about the staff members who actually heard him swear. 

 

[deertracks]

I agree Raider when the foul language started that should have opened everyone's eyes. You can preach bad doctrine but still have a heart for souls and the excuses could be made. BUT when bad language including the bomb,without sincere head slap and a I'm sorry I don't understand why I said that, happens then you are without excuse for not opening your eyes. That is my biggest problem with Marshall and Lapina. I believe these guys would call me a friend but I haven't had the opportunity to ask them what they were thinking but I will. Lapina shortly and Marshall some day.

It's not like he used the "F" bomb from the pulpit.  The average church member had no idea that was happening.  And when we DID hear rumors about it, they were just that...rumors. 

I'm tired of people acting like we were complete idiots.

I am aware of the fact it was used in staff meetings. I am speaking of the inner staff. I am not calling out members who sit in the pew and try their best to serve the Lord. These guys in the staff meeting that actually heard it I do not understand. I sat in a vehicle with Schaap once when he said something I felt inappropriate. Did not cuss but said something crude. I remember thinking that surprised me. Never happened again. I spent many hours alone with him hunting, talking ect and heard nothing. Of course this was in the early 80's. He changed.  When the rumor came out on the FFF years ago of his language in staff meetings I posted that I'm not buying it. I was wrong.

 

[cast.sheep]

I agree Raider when the foul language started that should have opened everyone's eyes. You can preach bad doctrine but still have a heart for souls and the excuses could be made. BUT when bad language including the bomb,without sincere head slap and a I'm sorry I don't understand why I said that, happens then you are without excuse for not opening your eyes. That is my biggest problem with Marshall and Lapina. I believe these guys would call me a friend but I haven't had the opportunity to ask them what they were thinking but I will. Lapina shortly and Marshall some day.

It's not like he used the "F" bomb from the pulpit.  The average church member had no idea that was happening.  And when we DID hear rumors about it, they were just that...rumors.


I'm tired of people acting like we were complete idiots.

I am aware of the fact it was used in staff meetings. I am speaking of the inner staff. I am not calling out members who sit in the pew and try there best to serve the Lord. These guys in the staff meeting that actually heard it I do not understand. I sat in a vehicle with Schaap once when he said something I felt inappropriate. Did not cuss but said something crude. I remember thinking that surprised me. Never happened again. I spent many hours alone with him hunting, talking ect and heard nothing. Of course this was in the early 80's. He changed.  When the rumor came out on the FFF years ago of his language in staff meetings I posted that I'm not buying it. I was wrong.

The INNER inner staff....like maybe 6 men.  Out of hundreds of employees, maybe six knew about it.  I do NOT understand why those men put up with it either!!!!  They did a disservice to everyone else and they are not blameless.  These are SAME men who offered him a sabattical after it all hit the fan.  Truly disgusting. 

 

[RAIDER]

I keep saying the same thing and it's as if no one is listening.  Stop trying to figure out why people didn't leave.  Unless you were there, you can't possibly understand!  Raider, it seems to me that you cringe when people refer to the place as a "cult" and yet, at the same time, you don't "get" why people stayed!  We were brainwashed!!!!!  Good people were brainwashed!  It's so much easier to see it all from "out here", but when you are there, you don't see it!  Everybody just STOP trying to figure it out!  Those of us who were there for DECADES keep trying so hard to explain it and we are getting nowhere!  Unless you were there and experienced it....not for just a few years...but for DECADES...you can't possibly understand!!!!!!!  You come down on people who are bitter, but you don't get it!  Yes, we should have figured it out!  And we were starting to....but we were taught dependence on the Mog, not on the Word of God.  According to the pastor, he was smarter than us.  He told us regularly.  You don't "get" why we didn't see it.  If I hadn't experienced it, I probably wouldn't "get" it either!  The Holy Spirit was an entity in word only.  We didn't need the Holy Spirit!  There were rules that covered every single thing He could have possibly convicted us of...and lots more!  The Mog told us what to believe and he convinced us USING the Word of God!!!!!!!!  Does that sound like a cult to you????  Now that I'm gone, it does to me! 

Just be thankful that YOU didn't experience what we did.  Be thankful that you got out before it happened to you.  Because it would have.  Whether you believe it or not...it would have. 

It's so frustrating trying to explain the inexplicable.

Hey, I don't think you are idiots.  In fact, because I know you and your husband I feel just the opposite.  You are great people.

I am trying to understand the FBCH staff and deacons.  Perhaps what you say is true - people were brainwashed over decades.  I look at a guy like Scott Gray.  While most on the FFF don't care for his dad, Bob Gray had Schaap pegged from the start.  Why did Scott stay around? 

 

[RAIDER]

I agree Raider when the foul language started that should have opened everyone's eyes. You can preach bad doctrine but still have a heart for souls and the excuses could be made. BUT when bad language including the bomb,without sincere head slap and a I'm sorry I don't understand why I said that, happens then you are without excuse for not opening your eyes. That is my biggest problem with Marshall and Lapina. I believe these guys would call me a friend but I haven't had the opportunity to ask them what they were thinking but I will. Lapina shortly and Marshall some day.

It's not like he used the "F" bomb from the pulpit.  The average church member had no idea that was happening.  And when we DID hear rumors about it, they were just that...rumors.


I'm tired of people acting like we were complete idiots.

I am aware of the fact it was used in staff meetings. I am speaking of the inner staff. I am not calling out members who sit in the pew and try there best to serve the Lord. These guys in the staff meeting that actually heard it I do not understand. I sat in a vehicle with Schaap once when he said something I felt inappropriate. Did not cuss but said something crude. I remember thinking that surprised me. Never happened again. I spent many hours alone with him hunting, talking ect and heard nothing. Of course this was in the early 80's. He changed.  When the rumor came out on the FFF years ago of his language in staff meetings I posted that I'm not buying it. I was wrong.

The INNER inner staff....like maybe 6 men.  Out of hundreds of employees, maybe six knew about it.  I do NOT understand why those men put up with it either!!!!  They did a disservice to everyone else and they are not blameless.

This is all I am saying.  We don't understand why those men did not speak up.

 

[RAIDER]

Raider, it seems to me that you cringe when people refer to the place as a "cult" and yet, at the same time, you don't "get" why people stayed!

I still do not think FBCH was/is a cult.

 

[cast.sheep]

Raider, it seems to me that you cringe when people refer to the place as a "cult" and yet, at the same time, you don't "get" why people stayed!

I still do not think FBCH was/is a cult.

Of course you don't!  You were there for four years with good experiences.  I, myself, don't consider it a textbook cult either...buuuuuuuuut....there WERE lots of similarities.  And those of who were there for decades see it now.

 

[cast.sheep]

I agree Raider when the foul language started that should have opened everyone's eyes. You can preach bad doctrine but still have a heart for souls and the excuses could be made. BUT when bad language including the bomb,without sincere head slap and a I'm sorry I don't understand why I said that, happens then you are without excuse for not opening your eyes. That is my biggest problem with Marshall and Lapina. I believe these guys would call me a friend but I haven't had the opportunity to ask them what they were thinking but I will. Lapina shortly and Marshall some day.

It's not like he used the "F" bomb from the pulpit.  The average church member had no idea that was happening.  And when we DID hear rumors about it, they were just that...rumors.


I'm tired of people acting like we were complete idiots.

I am aware of the fact it was used in staff meetings. I am speaking of the inner staff. I am not calling out members who sit in the pew and try there best to serve the Lord. These guys in the staff meeting that actually heard it I do not understand. I sat in a vehicle with Schaap once when he said something I felt inappropriate. Did not cuss but said something crude. I remember thinking that surprised me. Never happened again. I spent many hours alone with him hunting, talking ect and heard nothing. Of course this was in the early 80's. He changed.  When the rumor came out on the FFF years ago of his language in staff meetings I posted that I'm not buying it. I was wrong.

The INNER inner staff....like maybe 6 men.  Out of hundreds of employees, maybe six knew about it.  I do NOT understand why those men put up with it either!!!!  They did a disservice to everyone else and they are not blameless.

This is all I am saying.  We don't understand why those men did not speak up.

I don't know why either.  But, perhaps it may have had something to do with the fact that once you got to "inner-inner circle" status, you were taken care of well.  And, the thing most everyone craved there was "status" and they had that.  Why didn't Scott Gray leave sooner?  I guess only he knows, but maybe it had to do with the fact that he had status.  He was in the "in-crowd" of staff members.  He was in the K Schaap, S Mason, C Tefft, S Gray "group" and they were inseparable.  Oh, and that crowd was close to JS and EL too.

 

[cast.sheep]

Bottom line is this:  The place was all about CONTROL. 

I think that's one of the major traits of a cult, isn't it? 

 

[RAIDER]

I don't know why either.  But, perhaps it may have had something to do with the fact that once you got to "inner-inner circle" status, you were taken care of well.  And, the thing most everyone craved there was "status" and they had that.  Why didn't Scott Gray leave sooner?  I guess only he knows, but maybe it had to do with the fact that he had status.  He was in the "in-crowd" of staff members.  He was in the K Schaap, S Mason, C Tefft, S Gray "group" and they were inseparable.  Oh, and that crowd was close to JS and EL too.

Let's face it, if you were an IFB working for HAC or FBCH you were at the top of the ladder in the eyes of the IFB world.  Perhaps that is why some chose top turn a blind eye.  Maybe they were hoping it would go away.

 

[RAIDER]

Raider, it seems to me that you cringe when people refer to the place as a "cult" and yet, at the same time, you don't "get" why people stayed!

I still do not think FBCH was/is a cult.

Of course you don't!  You were there for four years with good experiences.  I, myself, don't consider it a textbook cult either...buuuuuuuuut....there WERE lots of similarities.  And those of who were there for decades see it now.

Believe me, while I was there for 4 years I saw plenty of people that were "out in left field".  Most of the time they were easy to identify.  Maybe if I had stayed around for a long period of time I would have started to see them as normal.