Your thoughts on tithing?

[Darkwing Duck]

The other thread was starting to get quite derailed so I figured I'd post a new thread.

I grew up  IFB and graduated from HAC. However,  I no longer believe tithing is commanded to believers.

For me, 2 Corinthians 2:9 completely settles the issue of tithing - "Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver."

"or of necessity" basically rules out any so-called "commandment to give 10%"

How would some of you who still preach tithing respond to this verse?

 

[praise_yeshua]

The verses you mention only deal with the temporary collect for the poor saints at Jerusalem. Paul even says that he didn't want any collections being taken while at Corinth.

There is nothing in the NT that sets a endless schedule for collections of gifts from the saints. Nothing.

NT giving is based on need and even then its not based on endlessly giving. Paul even taught that widow of a certain age should be taken care of by their own family and not that the saints be burdened that they may only help those that truly need to be helped.

This NOTHING like the teaching of giving in most any church today.

Why?

Because we judge God's blessing based on how much we get in the collection plate!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Smellin Coffee]

The verses you mention only deal with the temporary collect for the poor saints at Jerusalem. Paul even says that he didn't want any collections being taken while at Corinth.

Correct. But where did the monies go? Paul originally told the Corinthians that he didn't want a part in taking the money to Jerusalem but he eventually changed his mind and told the Romans that he was going to do just that.

I Corinthians 16:1-4
Now concerning the contribution for the saints; as I have directed the Churches in Galatia, so you are also to do...And when I arrive, I will send those whom you accredit by letter to carry your gift to Jerusalem. If it seems advisable that I should go also, they will accompany me.

II Corinthians 8:1-4
We want you to know, brethren, about the grace of God which has been shown in the Churches in Macedonia, for in a severe test of affliction, their abundance of joy and their extreme poverty have overflowed in a wealth of liberality on their part. For they gave according to their means, as I can testify, and beyond their means, of their own free will, begging us earnestly for the favor of taking part in the relief of the saints...

II Corinthians 9:1-2
Now it is superfluous for me to write to you about the offering for the saints, for I know your readiness, of which I boast about you to the people of Macedonia, saying that Achaia has been ready since last year, and your zeal has stirred up most of them.

Romans 15:25-26
At present however, I am going to Jerusalem with aid for the saints. For Macedonia and Archaia have been pleased to make some contribution for the poor among the saints at Jerusalem.

Why the change of mind? Because it seems he feared his collections might not be accepted.

Romans 15:30-31
I appeal to you, brethren, by our Lord Jesus Christ and by the love of the Spirit, to strive together with me in your prayers to God on my behalf, that I may be delivered from the unbelievers in Judea, and that my service for Jerusalem may be acceptable to the saints.

When he was arrested, in his testimony he confirmed his reason for being in town:

Acts 24:17-18
Now after many years I came to bring alms to my nation and to present offerings. While I was doing this, they found me purified in the temple, without any crowd or tumult.

So where did the monies go? There is no record of the Apostles collecting it, no record of it being distributed to the poor and no record of him keeping it. What we do know is that none of the Apostles or church in Jerusalem (other than his nephew) came to his defense or offered aid at his arrest and that there is no further record of them having any fellowship with him thereafter. He did, however, pay the expenses of the Nazarite four:

Acts 21:23-24
Therefore do what we tell you: We have four men who have taken a vow. Take them and be purified with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads, and that all may know that those things of which they were informed concerning you are nothing, but that you yourself also walk orderly and keep the law.

So did Paul collect money from the churches to pay for the Nazarites and to show 'proof' he, despite his reputation did "walk orderly and keep the law" (the same 'law' from which he said he was released in Romans 7)?

No accusations, just curiosity...

 

[Techmedic]

I tend to go along with what this says...

http://www.gotquestions.org/tithing-Christian.html


Question: "What does the Bible say about Christian tithing? Should a Christian tithe?"

Answer: Many Christians struggle with the issue of tithing. In some churches giving is over-emphasized. At the same time, many Christians refuse to submit to the biblical exhortations about making offerings to the Lord. Tithing/giving is intended to be a joy and a blessing. Sadly, that is sometimes not the case in the church today.

Tithing is an Old Testament concept. The tithe was a requirement of the Law in which the Israelites were to give 10 percent of the crops they grew and the livestock they raised to the tabernacle/temple (Leviticus 27:30; Numbers 18:26; Deuteronomy 14:24; 2 Chronicles 31:5). In fact, the Old Testament Law required multiple tithes—one for the Levites, one for the use of the temple and the feasts, and one for the poor of the land—which would have pushed the total to around 23.3 percent. Some understand the Old Testament tithe as a method of taxation to provide for the needs of the priests and Levites in the sacrificial system.

The New Testament nowhere commands, or even recommends, that Christians submit to a legalistic tithe system. The New Testament nowhere designates a percentage of income a person should set aside, but only says gifts should be “in keeping with income” (1 Corinthians 16:2). Some in the Christian church have taken the 10 percent figure from the Old Testament tithe and applied it as a “recommended minimum” for Christians in their giving.

The New Testament talks about the importance and benefits of giving. We are to give as we are able. Sometimes that means giving more than 10 percent; sometimes that may mean giving less. It all depends on the ability of the Christian and the needs of the church. Every Christian should diligently pray and seek God’s wisdom in the matter of participating in tithing and/or how much to give (James 1:5). Above all, all tithes and offerings should be given with pure motives and an attitude of worship to God and service to the body of Christ. “Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver” (2 Corinthians 9:7).

 

[praise_yeshua]

No accusations, just curiosity...

Sure. Sure.....

You're making a circumstantial case against Paul. We know how you feel about him.

Either way, there is no answer to your question.... other than.... we don't know. The book of Acts is.... somewhat... chronological order. Yet, its a loose order. Events are what drive the narrative. Not dates. In such writings, it is difficult to get an exact picture in relation to the epistles. You're simply taking the few references available and presenting them in a questionable manner.

The facts are....

1. Paul collected monies from various churches for the needy saints at Jerusalem.

2. The Gentile gift, should probably, be presented to the Jewish assembly by the Apostle of the Gentiles. This is why you read what you read in 1 Corinthians 16.

3. Paul probably made multiple trips to Jerusalem. Most believe this. However, this is also circumstantial. I tend to believe this is true. That multiple gifts were presented.

4. The distribution of monies was not the primary focus of Paul's missionary work. He wasn't in the "money" business...... like so many were at the time and are today. While most might boast of the monies given..... Paul did not. Thus, you don't have a complete record of distribution. Just a general idea that monies were given and dispersed.

 

[Walt]

The other thread was starting to get quite derailed so I figured I'd post a new thread.

I grew up  IFB and graduated from HAC. However,  I no longer believe tithing is commanded to believers.

For me, 2 Corinthians 2:9 completely settles the issue of tithing - "Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver."

"or of necessity" basically rules out any so-called "commandment to give 10%"

How would some of you who still preach tithing respond to this verse?

As I understand it, the real question is not about giving, but about 10% being a commandment; and that one is cursed if he gives 8% (in fact, some preacher claim that one is still cursed if one gives 10% because one must give "tithes AND offerings", so tithing only is not sufficient in their eyes).

I don't think any reasonable Bible student would question that the New Testament is full of teaching about giving, and that Christians are commanded to give.

Most Christians in America are exceedingly wealthy by the rest of the world's standards and can afford to give well over 10% of their income (I know that there are some Americans who live in poverty and can barely afford food & raiment). We all tend to be self-centered and welcome opportunities to spend more $$$ on toys and hobbies.

Having said that, I do think giving should be like the time we spend in studying the Bible and the time we spend in prayer.  Every Christian should be studying his Bible; every Christian should pray.  But the time we spend in such activity is between God and the Christian.  Some read the Scriptures until God speaks to them; others have a set time (30 min or an hour); others have some other plan to study the Scripture. Some people pray in a study; others pray while on the way to work, or on the way home.  So should our giving be - the amount we give should be between us and God.  No one seems to preach that you "must" spend 30 minutes in prayer, or one is not spiritual or not right with God.  Or that, if you're not spending 30 minutes in Bible study, you're not spiritual.

But when it comes to giving, the popular preaching is that one must give at least 10% or that one is not spiritual.

Perhaps some of it comes from fear that if every church member gave as he wanted, the church would go under financially.  I think it's been stated that, statistically, only a very small percentage give 10% or more, so the fear is that without the "stick" of "being right with God" that would drop even lower.  It's easy to find excuses not to give; it is harder to give consistently.

Just my thoughts about this topic.

 

[praise_yeshua]

The other thread was starting to get quite derailed so I figured I'd post a new thread.

I grew up  IFB and graduated from HAC. However,  I no longer believe tithing is commanded to believers.

For me, 2 Corinthians 2:9 completely settles the issue of tithing - "Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver."

"or of necessity" basically rules out any so-called "commandment to give 10%"

How would some of you who still preach tithing respond to this verse?

As I understand it, the real question is not about giving, but about 10% being a commandment; and that one is cursed if he gives 8% (in fact, some preacher claim that one is still cursed if one gives 10% because one must give "tithes AND offerings", so tithing only is not sufficient in their eyes).

I don't think any reasonable Bible student would question that the New Testament is full of teaching about giving, and that Christians are commanded to give.

Most Christians in America are exceedingly wealthy by the rest of the world's standards and can afford to give well over 10% of their income (I know that there are some Americans who live in poverty and can barely afford food & raiment). We all tend to be self-centered and welcome opportunities to spend more $$$ on toys and hobbies.

Having said that, I do think giving should be like the time we spend in studying the Bible and the time we spend in prayer.  Every Christian should be studying his Bible; every Christian should pray.  But the time we spend in such activity is between God and the Christian.  Some read the Scriptures until God speaks to them; others have a set time (30 min or an hour); others have some other plan to study the Scripture. Some people pray in a study; others pray while on the way to work, or on the way home.  So should our giving be - the amount we give should be between us and God.  No one seems to preach that you "must" spend 30 minutes in prayer, or one is not spiritual or not right with God.  Or that, if you're not spending 30 minutes in Bible study, you're not spiritual.

But when it comes to giving, the popular preaching is that one must give at least 10% or that one is not spiritual.

Perhaps some of it comes from fear that if every church member gave as he wanted, the church would go under financially.  I think it's been stated that, statistically, only a very small percentage give 10% or more, so the fear is that without the "stick" of "being right with God" that would drop even lower.  It's easy to find excuses not to give; it is harder to give consistently.

Just my thoughts about this topic.

Are you a "storehouse" preacher?

The issue isn't about giving. You know as well as I do..... that the average local church makes itself the focal point of any giving to its members. This is entirely dishonest and WRONG! A lie. A shady attempt to focus giving on the local assembly and not upon God....... AND.... don't tell me that giving to the local church is giving to God. Its not. In fact, often times..... its nothing more than a place to celebrate the size of offers and to boast about how good it makes people feel about helping others.

 

[4everfsu]

Every store house preacher I have known wanted to build an empire. I knew one in Tampa that wanted to be the next Jack Hyles. He had a three point sermon that he used every Sunday, 1.Long hair on men 2. Short dresses on women(throw in pants on women also) 3 Tithing, my kingdom needs more money.

If you love someone you will give out of the abundance of your heart. I do not believe in tithing as a doctrine  for the church today.

 

[IFB X-Files]

I do not believe in tithing as a doctrine  for the church today.

Let me back away from this thread before lightning strikes!  LOL!

 

[Walt]

The other thread was starting to get quite derailed so I figured I'd post a new thread.

I grew up  IFB and graduated from HAC. However,  I no longer believe tithing is commanded to believers.

For me, 2 Corinthians 2:9 completely settles the issue of tithing - "Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver."

"or of necessity" basically rules out any so-called "commandment to give 10%"

How would some of you who still preach tithing respond to this verse?

As I understand it, the real question is not about giving, but about 10% being a commandment; and that one is cursed if he gives 8% (in fact, some preacher claim that one is still cursed if one gives 10% because one must give "tithes AND offerings", so tithing only is not sufficient in their eyes).

( deleted most of post)

Just my thoughts about this topic.

Are you a "storehouse" preacher?

The issue isn't about giving. You know as well as I do..... that the average local church makes itself the focal point of any giving to its members. This is entirely dishonest and WRONG! A lie. A shady attempt to focus giving on the local assembly and not upon God....... AND.... don't tell me that giving to the local church is giving to God. Its not. In fact, often times..... its nothing more than a place to celebrate the size of offers and to boast about how good it makes people feel about helping others.

Define terms: what do you mean by a storehouse preacher?  Do you mean that  any and all giving must be done through the local church?  No; if you desire to give to other charitable causes, I think a Christian is free to do so.

Do I think that Christians should support their local church?  Absolutely.

It seems clear from Scripture (I Cor?) that the pastor(s) should have their needs met by the people (congregation) that they are feeding.  It seems clear that Paul could have insisted he be supported by the people he was ministering to, but did not avail himself of the privilege.

In America at least, we have church buildings that have operating and maintenance costs; part of my giving goes to cover this cost.  I see nothing at all wrong with this -- just because something isn't in the Scriptures doesn't make it wrong; it is wrong when it goes against what the Scripture teaches.  This is how churches have been organized for centuries.

 

[rsc2a]

In America at least, we have church buildings that have operating and maintenance costs...

At least some churches.

This is how churches have been organized for centuries.

Actually churches were financed by the State and/or taxes for significant portions of Christian history.

 

[praise_yeshua]

The other thread was starting to get quite derailed so I figured I'd post a new thread.

I grew up  IFB and graduated from HAC. However,  I no longer believe tithing is commanded to believers.

For me, 2 Corinthians 2:9 completely settles the issue of tithing - "Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver."

"or of necessity" basically rules out any so-called "commandment to give 10%"

How would some of you who still preach tithing respond to this verse?

As I understand it, the real question is not about giving, but about 10% being a commandment; and that one is cursed if he gives 8% (in fact, some preacher claim that one is still cursed if one gives 10% because one must give "tithes AND offerings", so tithing only is not sufficient in their eyes).

( deleted most of post)

Just my thoughts about this topic.

Are you a "storehouse" preacher?

The issue isn't about giving. You know as well as I do..... that the average local church makes itself the focal point of any giving to its members. This is entirely dishonest and WRONG! A lie. A shady attempt to focus giving on the local assembly and not upon God....... AND.... don't tell me that giving to the local church is giving to God. Its not. In fact, often times..... its nothing more than a place to celebrate the size of offers and to boast about how good it makes people feel about helping others.

Define terms: what do you mean by a storehouse preacher?  Do you mean that  any and all giving must be done through the local church?  No; if you desire to give to other charitable causes, I think a Christian is free to do so.

Do I think that Christians should support their local church?  Absolutely.

It seems clear from Scripture (I Cor?) that the pastor(s) should have their needs met by the people (congregation) that they are feeding.  It seems clear that Paul could have insisted he be supported by the people he was ministering to, but did not avail himself of the privilege.

In America at least, we have church buildings that have operating and maintenance costs; part of my giving goes to cover this cost.  I see nothing at all wrong with this -- just because something isn't in the Scriptures doesn't make it wrong; it is wrong when it goes against what the Scripture teaches.  This is how churches have been organized for centuries.

Do you preaching tithing to the storehouse and that the local church is the NT storehouse?

Is that clear enough for you.

I haven't said anything against giving to support the expenses of having a dedicated building for local assembly. However, you're probably doing more with what's being given than just what you've mentioned.

I tend to believe that most pastors should have a secular job where possible. It'll go a long ways toward stopping many abuses of giving in the average church.

 

[Walt]

The other thread was starting to get quite derailed so I figured I'd post a new thread.

I grew up  IFB and graduated from HAC. However,  I no longer believe tithing is commanded to believers.

For me, 2 Corinthians 2:9 completely settles the issue of tithing - "Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver."

"or of necessity" basically rules out any so-called "commandment to give 10%"

How would some of you who still preach tithing respond to this verse?

As I understand it, the real question is not about giving, but about 10% being a commandment; and that one is cursed if he gives 8% (in fact, some preacher claim that one is still cursed if one gives 10% because one must give "tithes AND offerings", so tithing only is not sufficient in their eyes).

( deleted most of post)

Just my thoughts about this topic.

Are you a "storehouse" preacher?

The issue isn't about giving. You know as well as I do..... that the average local church makes itself the focal point of any giving to its members. This is entirely dishonest and WRONG! A lie. A shady attempt to focus giving on the local assembly and not upon God....... AND.... don't tell me that giving to the local church is giving to God. Its not. In fact, often times..... its nothing more than a place to celebrate the size of offers and to boast about how good it makes people feel about helping others.

Define terms: what do you mean by a storehouse preacher?  Do you mean that  any and all giving must be done through the local church?  No; if you desire to give to other charitable causes, I think a Christian is free to do so.

Do I think that Christians should support their local church?  Absolutely.

It seems clear from Scripture (I Cor?) that the pastor(s) should have their needs met by the people (congregation) that they are feeding.  It seems clear that Paul could have insisted he be supported by the people he was ministering to, but did not avail himself of the privilege.

In America at least, we have church buildings that have operating and maintenance costs; part of my giving goes to cover this cost.  I see nothing at all wrong with this -- just because something isn't in the Scriptures doesn't make it wrong; it is wrong when it goes against what the Scripture teaches.  This is how churches have been organized for centuries.

Do you preaching tithing to the storehouse and that the local church is the NT storehouse?

Is that clear enough for you.

That's clear, but I'm astounded that you would ask it -- did you even READ what I wrote?  To quote myself:

Having said that, I do think giving should be like the time we spend in studying the Bible and the time we spend in prayer.  Every Christian should be studying his Bible; every Christian should pray.  But the time we spend in such activity is between God and the Christian.  Some read the Scriptures until God speaks to them; others have a set time (30 min or an hour); others have some other plan to study the Scripture. Some people pray in a study; others pray while on the way to work, or on the way home.  So should our giving be - the amount we give should be between us and God.  No one seems to preach that you "must" spend 30 minutes in prayer, or one is not spiritual or not right with God.  Or that, if you're not spending 30 minutes in Bible study, you're not spiritual.

I don't see how you can get "storehouse tithing" from what I said.

I haven't said anything against giving to support the expenses of having a dedicated building for local assembly. However, you're probably doing more with what's being given than just what you've mentioned.


I tend to believe that most pastors should have a secular job where possible. It'll go a long ways toward stopping many abuses of giving in the average church.

I agree that the pastor having a secular job would "go a long ways toward stopping many abuses" seems like a good idea; logical and reasonable. However, as a saved man, I cannot stop only at that when the Scriptures talk to an issue, and it seems to me, like I wrote earlier, that pastors who are feeding the flock spiritual things should be supported by that  flock.  I believe that this is right and Scriptural.  I certainly know of churches where people are living just above poverty and in poor housing while the pastor lives very well: He has an expensive house in the best part of town.  This is certainly an abuse and such men will give account to God.

I've already stated that I think Christians should give, but the amount should be between them and God.  I'm still a little fuzzy on the "storehouse" concept - I've heard some teach that EVERYTHING a Christian gives should go through the local church: for example, if I want to give Missionary Jones a present because he's a friend of mine with whom I went to college, but my church does not support him, I should give the money to the church, and the church will send it to the missionary.  I do NOT believe that.

So, if "storehouse tithing" means that one must give 10% to his local church, nothing in what I've said supports such a position, since I believe in "giving" rather than "tithing", nor do I think that ALL giving must be done through the church.

Is that clear?

 

[praise_yeshua]

I don't see how you can get "storehouse tithing" from what I said.

I was seeking nothing more than clarity. You seem to be talking around the issue.

I agree that the pastor having a secular job would "go a long ways toward stopping many abuses" seems like a good idea; logical and reasonable. However, as a saved man, I cannot stop only at that when the Scriptures talk to an issue, and it seems to me, like I wrote earlier, that pastors who are feeding the flock spiritual things should be supported by that  flock.  I believe that this is right and Scriptural.  I certainly know of churches where people are living just above poverty and in poor housing while the pastor lives very well: He has an expensive house in the best part of town.  This is certainly an abuse and such men will give account to God.

Paul gave a very good reason for not demanding that others support him.

1Co 9:18  What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.

Most every pastor should make this their "life verse".

I've already stated that I think Christians should give, but the amount should be between them and God.  I'm still a little fuzzy on the "storehouse" concept - I've heard some teach that EVERYTHING a Christian gives should go through the local church: for example, if I want to give Missionary Jones a present because he's a friend of mine with whom I went to college, but my church does not support him, I should give the money to the church, and the church will send it to the missionary.  I do NOT believe that.

I agree with you.

So, if "storehouse tithing" means that one must give 10% to his local church, nothing in what I've said supports such a position, since I believe in "giving" rather than "tithing", nor do I think that ALL giving must be done through the church.

Is that clear?

Yes. Thanks for the clarification!! Maybe a sermon or two on the subject over the next few Sundays down at your church......might help others understand better.

One more thing that tends to bother me!!!

I generally believe giving to the local church should be to support shared expenses in creating a local place to worship our Lord. That is pretty much the only time that monies should be collected as a group unless a large need is going to be meet through pooling monies together.

Why is it that the local church collect monies and then sends $10 a month to missionaries? Why such a large collection and such little dispersion?

 

[IFB X-Files]

Why is it that the local church collect monies and then sends $10 a month to missionaries? Why such a large collection and such little dispersion?

I have to ask if you are a member of a local Baptist assembly?  If so, are you actually involved?  "$10 a month"?  Really??

 

[praise_yeshua]

Why is it that the local church collect monies and then sends $10 a month to missionaries? Why such a large collection and such little dispersion?

I have to ask if you are a member of a local Baptist assembly?  If so, are you actually involved?  "$10 a month"?  Really??

I was making the point, or attempt to, that if you're making a large collect.... then why not spend large?

I know churches that have hundreds of thousands of dollars in the bank and have for decades.

I've been a member of a local "baptist" assembly. I attend "baptist" churches. I don't ever think I'll join another one. Never found "joining a local church" in the Scriptures.

 

[subllibrm]

Why is it that the local church collect monies and then sends $10 a month to missionaries? Why such a large collection and such little dispersion?

I have to ask if you are a member of a local Baptist assembly?  If so, are you actually involved?  "$10 a month"?  Really??

I was making the point, or attempt to, that if you're making a large collect.... then why not spend large?

I know churches that have hundreds of thousands of dollars in the bank and have for decades.

I've been a member of a local "baptist" assembly. I attend "baptist" churches. I don't ever think I'll join another one. Never found "joining a local church" in the Scriptures.

Lisy Ruby would agree with you here.

 

[IFB X-Files]

I don't ever think I'll join another one.

I'm sure the assemblies in your area are rejoicing over your choice.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I don't ever think I'll join another one.

I'm sure the assemblies in your area are rejoicing over your choice.

Are you rejoicing with them?

 

[praise_yeshua]

Why is it that the local church collect monies and then sends $10 a month to missionaries? Why such a large collection and such little dispersion?

I have to ask if you are a member of a local Baptist assembly?  If so, are you actually involved?  "$10 a month"?  Really??

I was making the point, or attempt to, that if you're making a large collect.... then why not spend large?

I know churches that have hundreds of thousands of dollars in the bank and have for decades.

I've been a member of a local "baptist" assembly. I attend "baptist" churches. I don't ever think I'll join another one. Never found "joining a local church" in the Scriptures.

Lisy Ruby would agree with you here.

Join it if you want.

1Co_6:15  Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.

A rather simple analogy, but it effectively conveys my beliefs.

I'm am in no way similar to that NUT Ruby. I love Halloween candy..... even though I don't celebrate the holiday.