Abortion, We Are Against It

[Ransom]

Rape and incest often leads to extreme suffering and wounds in the victims.

Abortion always leads to extreme suffering and wounds in the victims who were conceived through rape or incest. What did they do to deserve death?

The rape and incest compromise assumes that human beings created because of rape or incest are worth less than other people.

 

[FSSL]

I am leaving the door open so that the rape/incest victim can heal from their suffering. I am not advocating for the necessity of abortion.

If a woman's life is in jeopardy, you are fine with abortion. You allow for that choice. The same question could be asked, "What did that baby do to deserve death?"

A conundrum where some women choose death to let the baby live.

I dont believe we need to let this cause a double-jeopardy leaving the rape/incest victim with guilt.

 

[abcaines]

I understand the common lib excuses. No doubt that they will find any excuse to use abortion as birth control.

Libs are not happy with just "rape and incest" limitations, either.

Rape and incest often leads to extreme suffering and wounds in the victims. If an abortion is important to the physical healing of a victim, I dont see a moral conflict.

With that said, I don't think every rape/incest victim should abort. I simply think the option should be left legally open.

Rape/incest exceptions are red herrings. They'd be used as loopholes. Once a loophole is opened up, it is always expanded until you can drive a truck through it.

Given that rape is illegal as well as incest (so far in most jurisdictions,) a claim of rape or incest in order to obtain an abortion ought to lead to an investigation and subsequent prosecution of the perpetrator. Good luck making something like that happen.

 

[FSSL]

Rape/incest exceptions are red herrings. They'd be used as loopholes. Once a loophole is opened up, it is always expanded until you can drive a truck through it.

Given that rape is illegal as well as incest (so far in most jurisdictions,) a claim of rape or incest in order to obtain an abortion ought to lead to an investigation and subsequent prosecution of the perpetrator. Good luck making something like that happen.

The same problem exists for the exception "to save a mother's life." There is no perfect exception.

I am not following your logic in the second paragraph.

 

[Ransom]

If a woman's life is in jeopardy, you are fine with abortion. You allow for that choice. The same question could be asked, "What did that baby do to deserve death?"

This is an application of the ethical principle of double effect, which posits that it is permissible to cause an unintended harm in order to prevent another, even if the unintended harm would not be permissible otherwise, and if the intent is not to cause the unintended harm but to prevent the other one.

An example of the principle is self-defence: being forced to commit homicide to stop a homicidal maniac from murdering you. You would be the murderer if you killed the maniac in cold blood, but killing him as an act of self-defence is permissible if necessary. The life-of-the-mother exception is basically an application of this. If, without the abortion, the mother will die (and then, so will her child), then according to the principle of double effect, it's permissible to induce an abortion--not to kill the child, but to save the mother.

Otherwise healthy pregnancies caused by rape or incest do not threaten the life of the mother. Indeed, many such children are born and loved and cherished by their mothers regardless of the circumstances of their birth, so it's not even a sure thing that their psychological well-being is harmed. Killing an unborn child is not a proportionate response to potential harm to the mother's emotional or psychological well-being. It's not the moral equivalent of saving her life.

Additionally, those three hard cases make up a very small minority of abortions. As abcaines pointed out, they're used by pro-abortion advocates as fig leaves for their agenda of legalizing abortions for any reason, at any stage of pregnancy. Hard cases make bad law.

I dont believe we need to let this cause a double-jeopardy leaving the rape/incest victim with guilt.

If we don't want to leave a rape victim with guilt, how much more should we want to protect her unborn child, who is equally guiltless?

 

[abcaines]

I am not following your logic in the second paragraph.

A woman goes to an abortion mill claiming she's pregnant due to a rape and wants the child aborted. Is a report going to be filed with the police so they can investigate and bring the perpetrator to justice?

 

[FSSL]

A woman goes to an abortion mill claiming she's pregnant due to a rape and wants the child aborted. Is a report going to be filed with the police so they can investigate and bring the perpetrator to justice?

I would hope so...

 

[FSSL]

This is an application of the ethical principle of double effect, which posits that it is permissible to cause an unintended harm in order to prevent another, even if the unintended harm would not be permissible otherwise, and if the intent is not to cause the unintended harm but to prevent the other one.

Agreed. I have a friend who developed cancer and it was her life or the baby's life. She chose to die and did. I believe if she chose otherwise, no moral consequence.

Otherwise healthy pregnancies caused by rape or incest do not threaten the life of the mother. Indeed, many such children are born and loved and cherished by their mothers regardless of the circumstances of their birth, so it's not even a sure thing that their psychological well-being is harmed.

Agreed. Most rapes and incest do not threaten the life of the mother. I am on the side of providing all possible means to not abort. However, there may be medical procedures needed that will result in abortion. I am leaving that option open.

 

[aleshanee]

Rape/incest exceptions are red herrings. They'd be used as loopholes. Once a loophole is opened up, it is always expanded until you can drive a truck through it.

Given that rape is illegal as well as incest (so far in most jurisdictions,) a claim of rape or incest in order to obtain an abortion ought to lead to an investigation and subsequent prosecution of the perpetrator. Good luck making something like that happen.

personally i don;t believe rape and incest should be reasons to have an abortion or to let it be allowed... i believe abortion should be illegal without exception... .. . ..however.... the majority of conservatives that want to see abortion banned for every other reason consider the issue of rape and incest a red line... .. and one that would cause them to vote that all abortions be legal rather than outlaw it for those 2 things.... they consider bans on abortion even for rape and incest to be too extreme..... . .

and from the sounds of it there is a majority in arizona that feels the same way... .which is why many.. (trump included)... believe this action taken in arizona will cause a backlash - thus leading to the exact opposite of what we want.... ..... ..i know compromise is a dirty word in the world of christian fundamentalism - but in the world of politics it;s the name of the game.... . and unfortunately - for those clinging to the stance that the majority considers extreme - it;s politics - not fundamentalism - that determines what laws will be passed in america..... .

 

[abcaines]

personally i don;t believe rape and incest should be reasons to have an abortion or to let it be allowed... i believe abortion should be illegal without exception... .. . ..however.... the majority of conservatives that want to see abortion banned for every other reason consider the issue of rape and incest a red line... .. and one that would cause them to vote that all abortions be legal rather than outlaw it for those 2 things.... they consider bans on abortion even for rape and incest to be too extreme..... . .

and from the sounds of it there is a majority in arizona that feels the same way... .which is why many.. (trump included)... believe this action taken in arizona will cause a backlash - thus leading to the exact opposite of what we want.... ..... ..i know compromise is a dirty word in the world of christian fundamentalism - but in the world of politics it;s the name of the game.... . and unfortunately - for those clinging to the stance that the majority considers extreme - it;s politics - not fundamentalism - that determines what laws will be passed in america..... .

I've always thought bans on the rape and incest exception to be extreme until recently when I realized what I have about the exceptions. It's the left who always brings it up even though these scenarios account for <1% of abortions performed.

 

[abcaines]

Ok... Here's a question for those who favor the rape/incest exception... Should a woman who claims her pregnancy is the result of rape or incest be required to report the crime to law enforcement prior to requesting the abortion?

 

[voicecrying]

Ok... Here's a question for those who favor the rape/incest exception... Should a woman who claims her pregnancy is the result of rape or incest be required to report the crime to law enforcement prior to requesting the abortion?

Absolutely.

 

[abcaines]

Absolutely.

Now here's another question. Do you really think the abortion lobby would tolerate such a requirement in order to secure this exception?

 

[Ransom]

Now here's another question. Do you really think the abortion lobby would tolerate such a requirement in order to secure this exception?

Heck no. A decade ago, Lila Rose posed as a 14-year-old prostitute and visited a Planned Parenthood with her "pimp" and a hidden camera. They basically ignored the fact that she was underage and being trafficked for sex.

Abortionists insist they are providing a medical service, but they also aggressively resist being held to the same standards as an actual doctor's office, whether those standards are hygiene, safety, or ethics.

 

[abcaines]

Heck no. A decade ago, Lila Rose posed as a 14-year-old prostitute and visited a Planned Parenthood with her "pimp" and a hidden camera. They basically ignored the fact that she was underage and being trafficked for sex.

Abortionists insist they are providing a medical service, but they also aggressively resist being held to the same standards as an actual doctor's office, whether those standards are hygiene, safety, or ethics.

Therein lies the reason I have recently rejected the whole rape/incest exemption idea.

 

[abcaines]

DISCLAIMER:

It's usually presumed that many who oppose abortion do so because they have a saving relationship with Jesus Christ; they have turned their backs to sinful lifestyles thus, rejecting the violence and murder that is abortion.

However, we do well to remember some who oppose abortion are not believers. An individual's position on abortion does not justify or condemn them before God.

I know we all know this but it's good to keep our perspective on what's true.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

Sure he can. He's seriously wrong on a crucial moral issue, though.

Sure he can. He's seriously wrong on a crucial moral issue, though.

Here is what you said on the MacArthur thread. :


“Effectively, there is no political party in Canada that is even willing to talk about restricting abortion, let alone legislate against it. If I want to vote at all, I can't not vote for a party that slays babies in the womb. Best I can do is vote for a party whose local candidate might be pro-life, as opposed to the party whose candidates definitely aren't.

The problem with making such absolute statements on single-issue voting, is that you leave people stuck when your single issue is taken off the table.”

And I agree with you in principle which applies here.

 

[voicecrying]

Therein lies the reason I have recently rejected the whole rape/incest exemption idea.

If you lived in a state that currently allows abortion on demand, would you support a law that restricts abortion except in cases of rape/incest or in cases where the life of the mother was in danger? I think too many pro-lifers are in the "all-or-nothing" crowd. I would support legislation that abolishes abortions except in those cases because that would at least eliminate most abortions. After several years pass and they see that those cases are miniscule, people would be more willing to accept a law that prevents abortions even in the cases of rape/incest. It was huge mistake for states to propose such all-or-nothing laws/constitutional amendments after Roe-v-Wade was overturned. We need to take steps to get there.

 

[aleshanee]

If you lived in a state that currently allows abortion on demand, would you support a law that restricts abortion except in cases of rape/incest or in cases where the life of the mother was in danger? I think too many pro-lifers are in the "all-or-nothing" crowd. I would support legislation that abolishes abortions except in those cases because that would at least eliminate most abortions. After several years pass and they see that those cases are miniscule, people would be more willing to accept a law that prevents abortions even in the cases of rape/incest. It was huge mistake for states to propose such all-or-nothing laws/constitutional amendments after Roe-v-Wade was overturned. We need to take steps to get there.

i agree with you.... all or nothing proposals are nothing but recipes for failure in states where the populace will not support such... ....and while i am adamantly against abortion in all cases i never the less believe supporting a candidate seen as the lesser of two evils and has a chance of winning.... but might not be the zero tolerance dream candidate of fundamentalists.... is the better way to go in blue or battleground states ... because it will save the most lives......

but that being said.... if i lived in a red state where a zero tolerance candidate had a fair chance to win... even if he or she was the 3rd party choice.... i would vote for them every time...

 

[FSSL]

Ok... Here's a question for those who favor the rape/incest exception... Should a woman who claims her pregnancy is the result of rape or incest be required to report the crime to law enforcement prior to requesting the abortion?

Yes. An investigation needs to happen.