Could a Christian Get Away with Murder?

[Baptist Renegade]

I am thinking of some comments made on the O. J. thread so here is the hypothetical situation:

1. A "Professing Christian" commits the heinous crime of murder for whatever reason. This is not self defense or justifiable homicide, it is a cold-blooded murder for which justice should be served.
2. This murdering defendent is able to convince a jury that he/she is innocent and is declared "not guilty." Case is dismissed, defendent is exonerated and walks free.
3. This person never speaks of this deed ever, not even a "death bed" confession.
4. They possessed a genuine saving faith and therefore declared "Justified" and enters into the presence of the Lord!
5. Since our sins are removed as far as the East is from the West, it is never brought up on the day of judgment.

Is such a scenario even possible? Why or why not?

I will reserve my opinion for now...

 

[abcaines]

No one commits a crime like murder as you have described out of the blue. A person, whether a believer or not, has to go through an incredible hardening process in order to step up to such a crime. Your post murder scenario as given, would also be an expected outcome of such a hardened heart.

Such a hardening of one's heart would be a difficult thing for a genuine believer to do. He would have to steadfastly harden his heart in the face of personal conviction from the Holy Spirit. In fact, such resistance to the Holy Spirit would be a problem for anyone attempting to make an argument that such a person is a genuine believer.

 

[Ransom]

Is such a scenario even possible? Why or why not?

Does a person who genuinely confesses Christ have the option of refusing to confess to such a serious crime?

I would say that is lying by omission, and evidence the murder was never truly repented of. Committing a murder isn't some small, easily forgotten sin. It's the defining event of a person's life. No one cared about OJ's Heismann trophy after 1994.

 

[Ransom]

A legal aside for those with a better law education than mine: The principle of double jeopardy says you can't be tried twice for the same crime. Does that also apply when the accused himself admits his own guilt, after his acquittal?

 

[aleshanee]

A legal aside for those with a better law education than mine: The principle of double jeopardy says you can't be tried twice for the same crime. Does that also apply when the accused himself admits his own guilt, after his acquittal?

it can happen.... but not by the same authority for the same crime.... ....however... other authorites can take action for related crimes or situations they might have jurisdiction over...... (thus the reason civil courts can find a person responsible for the results of a crime and forced to pay monetary settlements to the victims even after he was acquitted of criminal acts)....... . ..

but according to official original documents on the issue - the united states operates under a system of dual sovereignty, with the federal government representing the supreme law of the land but nonetheless having limited, enumerated powers, while the states retain independent sovereignty and plenary police powers.... .. which means if the state finds you not guilty you could still be tried by the federal government for crimes covered under federal law....

but with the federal government now operatiing multiple agencies like the FBI... BATF ...DEA... and even the IRS..(agencies that did not exist when the u.s. constitution was written).. and who have been given massive police powers.... it has become very complicated - and technically could put people in double or even triple jeopardy for the same crimes whether they confess or not....

and then of course theoretically a person could also be hauled into the same court and tried for perjury if there is evidence he lied while giving testimony during his trial...... ....that could open a new can of worms altogether and i am not sure if it has ever happened in the united states.... ...

 

[abcaines]

but according to official original documents on the issue - the united states operates under a system of dual sovereignty, with the federal government representing the supreme law of the land but nonetheless having limited, enumerated powers, while the states retain independent sovereignty and plenary police powers.... .. which means if the state finds you not guilty you could still be tried by the federal government for crimes covered under federal law....

Which is exactly what happened to the officers in the Rodney King incident.

In my work at the time, I got to know the parents of one of those officers. They were a great family who fostered special needs children. From the few interactions I had with them beyond our professional relationship, I think they were very strong believers. I expect to see see them in Heaven receiving a boatload of rewards for their faithfulness to the children they served.

 

[Baptist Renegade]

No one commits a crime like murder as you have described out of the blue. A person, whether a believer or not, has to go through an incredible hardening process in order to step up to such a crime. Your post murder scenario as given, would also be an expected outcome of such a hardened heart.

Such a hardening of one's heart would be a difficult thing for a genuine believer to do. He would have to steadfastly harden his heart in the face of personal conviction from the Holy Spirit. In fact, such resistance to the Holy Spirit would be a problem for anyone attempting to make an argument that such a person is a genuine believer.

I think we are on the exact same page here!

Long story short, I do not a genuine Christian could get away with sin! Unsaved people are eaten up by their conscience all the time and end up turning themselves in for such crimes. How much more for someone who is a blood-bought Christian who has the indwelling Holy Spirit?

A Christian is most certainly capable of the sin of murder but God will not allow them to get away with it in this life! He will either bring his child to repentance, to confess and take ownership of their crime, and be accepting of the consequences, or he will ensure the evidence is compelling to the extent that a conviction is inevitable! No one gets away with sin.

I do not believe that a child of God could become so hardened as you say. I do not think God would allow it and I think you (and everyone else here) knows all the verses we could cite that would substantiate this. If someone were able to take such a sin to the grave, I would be confident in saying the person was most likely unregenerate and they will give account to God for this heinous sin!

I don't believe that OJ ever spoke publicly regarding any relationship or faith in Christ nor did he exemplify the characteristics of a regenerate man (although I thought he seemed like a "nice guy" prior to 1994 based upon his public persona but I digress...). I would say that if by some chance he was truly saved, then OJ was genuinely innocent this whole time. What we know from the public records speaks otherwise.

 

[Ransom]

it can happen.... but not by the same authority for the same crime.... ....however... other authorites can take action for related crimes or situations they might have jurisdiction over...... (thus the reason civil courts can find a person responsible for the results of a crime and forced to pay monetary settlements to the victims even after he was acquitted of criminal acts)....... . ..

Sure, or if a state court acquits him, a federal court might take some interest.

After posting that, I looked into this. Turns out the answer is yes, double jeopardy still applies even when the accused confesses after being acquitted. One, a confession is not evidence, and people will lie to get credit for things they didn't do. To convict the accused, his confession would still need to be tested in court--which it can't. Two, the onus is on the prosecution to prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt, and post-trial confession or not, they failed to do that.

So OJ didn't even have to title his book If I Did It.

 

[sword]

No one commits a crime like murder as you have described out of the blue. A person, whether a believer or not, has to go through an incredible hardening process in order to step up to such a crime. Your post murder scenario as given, would also be an expected outcome of such a hardened heart.

Such a hardening of one's heart would be a difficult thing for a genuine believer to do. He would have to steadfastly harden his heart in the face of personal conviction from the Holy Spirit. In fact, such resistance to the Holy Spirit would be a problem for anyone attempting to make an argument that such a person is a genuine believer.

I have heard of a number of cases of a perfectly normal induvidual , as a result of a rape or murder of a close relative, kill the perpetrator in a fit of rage. Where as this is still murder I find it very different than one who kills for financial gain or some twisted or evil motive.

King David, of the Bible, murdered Uriah and God forgave him and used him. He did face difficulty as a result of his sin.

 

[abcaines]

I have heard of a number of cases of a perfectly normal induvidual , as a result of a rape or murder of a close relitive, kill the perpetrator in a fit of rage. Where as this is still murder I find it very different than one who kills for financial gain or some twisted or evil motive.

Indeed. Still, a hardness of heart and rejection of the Holy Spirit's conviction is required. Actually, I can more easily understand a believer committing murder under the scenarios you pose than the scenarios BR did.

Funny, I heard a quip from Ruth Graham when asked if she ever considered divorcing Billy: "Divorce, no. Murder, yes."

 

[Ransom]

I have heard of a number of cases of a perfectly normal induvidual , as a result of a rape or murder of a close relitive, kill the perpetrator in a fit of rage. Where as this is still murder I find it very different than one who kills for financial gain or some twisted or evil motive.

King David, of the Bible, murdered Uriah and God forgave him and used him. He did face difficulty as a result of his sin.

I think we would all agree that a genuine Christian could be capable of committing a murder.

The original question was more complex: whether a genuine Christian could commit a murder, get away with it, and conceal his guilt all the way to the grave.

 

[Ekklesian]

The original question was more complex: whether a genuine Christian could commit a murder, get away with it, and conceal his guilt all the way to the grave.

Yes. If shame were the reason for the concealment.

 

[Ekklesian]

Funny, I heard a quip from Ruth Graham when asked if she ever considered divorcing Billy: "Divorce, no. Murder, yes."

Indeed.

 

[Baptist Renegade]

I have heard of a number of cases of a perfectly normal induvidual , as a result of a rape or murder of a close relative, kill the perpetrator in a fit of rage. Where as this is still murder I find it very different than one who kills for financial gain or some twisted or evil motive.

King David, of the Bible, murdered Uriah and God forgave him and used him. He did face difficulty as a result of his sin.

I know that a Christian is capable of committing murder and I am certain there have been genuine Christians who have done just that!

My question is could a genuine Christian commit murder, successfully conceal it, and take this secret to their grave thus escaping judgment on this side of eternity?

My thoughts on the matter are absolutely not! If they are a genuine believer, I am convinced that God would bring them to repentance and would compel them to face justice for their crime! There is no way someone could resist such Holy Ghost conviction and if they can, it truly reveals the fact that they are bastards and not sons (Heb 12:8).

Some may say that God would take care of the matter at the Judgment seat of Christ but we must remember that sin is not brought up at this judgment but the works that were done in his name. If they stand before God giving account for some murderous act, they have obviously died in their sins and they will do so at the Great White Throne.

 

[sword]

I don't believe a christian could commit a heinous sin and not feel guilt for it nor face Gods judgement for it. I do believe a Christian could commit murder and never face civil judgement for their actions.

The bible does say and eye for an eye so if someone murdered or raped your child or grand child and got off on a technicality I'm not so sure God would see judgement the same as civil government would for acting on this injustice. I can see a Christian arranging for judgement when the government refused to, under our system and never feeling guilt or being judged. Same might apply to rape or some other heinous crime committd against a loveone.

I don't think God looks at one sin that differently than the next. We do as humans do and rightly so. God did not seem to look at David's sin's any different than the sin of numbering the troops or the sin of stnding up to Godly authority as Korah did. It seems David go off easy compared to the others. Even cain seemd to get off easy for 1st degree murder of his brother. Why did God not require Adam to put Cain to death for his actions. He killed lots wife for just looking back.

 

[Bruh]

I am thinking of some comments made on the O. J. thread so here is the hypothetical situation:

1. A "Professing Christian" commits the heinous crime of murder for whatever reason. This is not self defense or justifiable homicide, it is a cold-blooded murder for which justice should be served.
2. This murdering defendent is able to convince a jury that he/she is innocent and is declared "not guilty." Case is dismissed, defendent is exonerated and walks free.
3. This person never speaks of this deed ever, not even a "death bed" confession.
4. They possessed a genuine saving faith and therefore declared "Justified" and enters into the presence of the Lord!
5. Since our sins are removed as far as the East is from the West, it is never brought up on the day of judgment.

Is such a scenario even possible? Why or why not?

I will reserve my opinion for now...

Must be the most unluckiest guy in the world. The guy who would die for you, kills you.

 

[Baptist Renegade]

I don't believe a christian could commit a heinous sin and not feel guilt for it nor face Gods judgement for it. I do believe a Christian could commit murder and never face civil judgement for their actions.

The bible does say and eye for an eye so if someone murdered or raped your child or grand child and got off on a technicality I'm not so sure God would see judgement the same as civil government would for acting on this injustice. I can see a Christian arranging for judgement when the government refused to, under our system and never feeling guilt or being judged. Same might apply to rape or some other heinous crime committd against a loveone.

I don't think God looks at one sin that differently than the next. We do as humans do and rightly so. God did not seem to look at David's sin's any different than the sin of numbering the troops or the sin of stnding up to Godly authority as Korah did. It seems David go off easy compared to the others. Even cain seemd to get off easy for 1st degree murder of his brother. Why did God not require Adam to put Cain to death for his actions. He killed lots wife for just looking back.

I can definitely sympathize with "Justifiable Homicide" and would not even pretend otherwise if it came down to those I love and care about personally. If I took matters into my own hands, I would also expect to face the natural consequences for my actions.

Regarding Cain, we should also realize that he rejected God's means of grace and died in his sins so he did face ultimate justice! Regarding Lot's wife... well.... we understand that God is just, is sovereign, and his judgments are right and good.

 

[abcaines]

I can definitely sympathize with "Justifiable Homicide" and would not even pretend otherwise if it came down to those I love and care about personally. If I took matters into my own hands, I would also expect to face the natural consequences for my actions.

Absolutely.

I've had occasion to be involved with relatively minor medical situations where I have had to call 911 and my response was completely justified. With such situations, my adrenaline kicks in and the mental aftermath is very significant when the situation deescalates. I cannot imagine the mental fallout from a situation where justifiable homicide comes into play. I'm afraid I'd have to be taken in for residential psychiatric care (aka the looney bin) if I went through something like that.

 

[aleshanee]

Absolutely.

I've had occasion to be involved with relatively minor medical situations where I have had to call 911 and my response was completely justified. With such situations, my adrenaline kicks in and the mental aftermath is very significant when the situation deescalates. I cannot imagine the mental fallout from a situation where justifiable homicide comes into play. I'm afraid I'd have to be taken in for residential psychiatric care (aka the looney bin) if I went through something like that.

i was there in the same kitchen when my natural sister was murdered by her meth-head boyfriend... when police broke open the door he stood over me with knives in both hands screaming at them and waving the knives around as if ready to take on the world.... ...but the stuff they sprayed into the room put him on the floor screaming in a different tone with his hands over his eyes.... they handcuffed him face down with his hands behind him then left him there and went back outside to wait for the fire department and the ambulance.... they left me in there too huddled in the corner where i had retreated to when the fight first started....

the story of what happened that night has been written on the fff several times over the years.... the first time it was written about it was posted by my adopted dad ... (DeepSix on the old forums)... who was the paramedic that responded to the house that night and carried me out of there... he wrote about that before i even joined the forum and it was part of the reason i decided to join so i could explain it......

but the reason i am mentioning it here is to tell about what the murderer did after the police handcuffed him and got him under control.... . he went from screaming obscenity at them and making threats of what he would do to them to crying and screaming begging for police to shoot him and kill him.... a complete reversal... during that time and in the midst of all his crying he also made a confession admitting to what he had done....was it genuine remorse?.... it sounded like it.... but who knows what is really happening in the mind of a habitual meth head who is still cranked from his last dose of it... ....

as for me - i wanted police to honor his request and to shoot him.... i had wanted to kill him myself from the moment he first attacked my sister at the kitchen table but all i was able to do was retreat and to try and make myself as small as possible in the corner and scream... to pray he would stop and pray he wouldn;t turn his attack on me....

i heard he claimed to have gotten saved in prison but i have no idea if that is actually true or if he just claimed it to obtain favor from his jailors.... i do know he has sabatoged every chance he had at parole by making stupid statements at his hearings.... one of the more memorable ones and the one that most likely convinced the board to keep him prison was telling them that while he had been locked up he had gotten clean but he knew that once he got out into the world chrystal meth would rule his life again and people would probably die as a result of his efforts to get it.... . he said meth had been his god out in the world and it still called to him even after being away from it for over 20 years.....

i don;t know the exact wording of how he said all that coz i never attended his hearings - though i had that right if i wanted to... ..i was given transcripts of the meetings but couldn;t read all of it and never even touched most of them.... ..i didn;t go to his sentencing or other court hearings either.... the last time i laid eyes on him he was sitting on the ground in the front yard of our house with his hands cuffed behind him.... shirtless and still covered in my sisters blood... still screaming at police begging them to shoot him and kill him... ...and for now that;s how i will remember him - though i still see shadows of him in nightmares .. and also shadows of others from before that... ....

 

[aleshanee]

Absolutely.

I've had occasion to be involved with relatively minor medical situations where I have had to call 911 and my response was completely justified. With such situations, my adrenaline kicks in and the mental aftermath is very significant when the situation deescalates. I cannot imagine the mental fallout from a situation where justifiable homicide comes into play. I'm afraid I'd have to be taken in for residential psychiatric care (aka the looney bin) if I went through something like that.

if you think of your memory as being a huge stone in a flowing stream - what you remember are things you experience that get chisled into that rock moment by moment... ... but only few last for very long as the water ..(or passage of time)... washes over them and erodes the rock surface away.... . but when something traumatic happens adrenaline kicks in causing the hammer to hit the chisle harder and drive the grooves into the stone deeper.. .. those memories are not washed away as easily... ...sometimes the hammer hits the chisle so hard the rock beneath it cracks causing a scar in the memory that will never go away and which no amount of water can erode and no amount of time can erase... ....those are the ones that can continue to hurt us long after all other memories are forgotten...

as for the "looney bin" as you called it... i;ve been there many times.. ... psychiatric care in the mental health ward lock up..... the rubber room as we call it..... .. usually for only a day or 2.... but sometimes as long as a month or more - depending on what is going on... i;ve written about things that happened in there a few times - when i can remember them.... ...but mostly what the staff and doctors are concerned with is keeping me in a safe place so i can;t hurt myself or anyone else until the danger of it passes.. ...it;s nothing like what hollywood likes to portray in tv and movies.... no group therapy sitting in circles talking.. ..just day after day of bloodwork and eeg scans with daily talks with the resident doctor and sometimes my own.....the lights are always on and live cameras are on you day and night.... ...it would drive normal people to insanity rather than curing of them of it....