Did God Create Evil?

Huk said:
David Hume, a skeptic, wrote of the “problem of evil”: Is [God] willing to prevent evil, but not able? then he is impotent. Is he able, but not willing? then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? then where does evil come from?
Perhaps the best defense I’ve seen, is the simple word reason. Why does God allow earthquakes, tsunamis, childhood illnesses, etc.? Because we, as simple humans, cannot conceive of the reasoning behind the greater good. I suppose free will and other arguments can be made, but reason is probably the most powerful to me. If half the world is wiped out in a nuclear war, although it may not seem just, there is still reason behind it, though we might not ever comprehend.
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Darkness was there in the beginning. God never said, Let there be darkness. He said, Let there be light, and He divided the light from the darkness.

Evil was there before Creation. It was not created.
 
voicecrying said:
Is evil a "thing" or the absence of a "thing"?
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Yes. :)

Augustine defined evil as the absence of good, just as darkness is the absence of light. There's something to that, theologically--"no one does good, not even one" (Rom. 3:12). But evil is also a thing people do. For example, robbery is not merely the absence of leaving someone's property alone. It's an action you plan and commit to doing.
 
Ekklesian said:
Darkness was there in the beginning. God never said, Let there be darkness. He said, Let there be light, and He divided the light from the darkness.

Evil was there before Creation. It was not created.
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Again, I feel that you’re now conflating the physical with the spiritual. God created all angels, including Satan.
 
Huk said:
This seems contradictory. Care to elaborate? You do agree that God is omniscient, don’t you?
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He's always contradicting himself, attributing things to people who didn't say them....He's Satan.
 
Huk said:
Again, I feel that you’re now conflating the physical with the spiritual. God created all angels, including Satan.
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Yes, Satan is God's creation. And the creation narrative isn't about the world of spirits. We're told very little about their plane of existence. But physical light and darkness are used as pictures of good and evil throughout the Scriptures, and I was alluding to that, and to the point that evil originated prior to creation.
 
Huk said:
This seems contradictory. Care to elaborate? You do agree that God is omniscient, don’t you?
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Yes. God is omniscient and omnipresent. That's why I said foreknowledge makes it part of the plan.
 
Bob Jones V said:
I concur with someone who said it is both.
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That actually makes sense to me. However, when people keep obviating God from the equation, it just becomes an academically dishonest argument, and philosophically impossible to comprehend.
 
Huk said:
David Hume, a skeptic, wrote of the “problem of evil”: Is [God] willing to prevent evil, but not able? then he is impotent. Is he able, but not willing? then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? then where does evil come from?
Perhaps the best defense I’ve seen, is the simple word reason. Why does God allow earthquakes, tsunamis, childhood illnesses, etc.? Because we, as simple humans, cannot conceive of the reasoning behind the greater good.
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Hume was popularlizing an earlier argument from Epicurus. Not knowing better, I assume Augustine was familiar with Epicurus, and was thus able to respond to it in the way you state, more or less: a morally good God can exist and allow evil to exist if there is a sufficiently good reason to do so.

And once again I cite Joseph's brothers selling him into slavery: "You meant it for evil, but God meant it for good" (Gen. 50:20)--the sufficiently good reason being the preservation of life.

Anyway, the Hume/Epicurean form of the argument goes something like this:


P1. If an omnipresent, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent god exists, then evil does not exist.

P1a. This god is aware of all evil.
P1b. This god would be able to prevent all evil.
P1c. This god would want to prevent all evil.
​
P2. Evil exists.

P2a. Either this god does not know about all evil, in which case he is not omnipresent; or
P2b. This god is unable to prevent all evil, in which chase he is not omnipotent; or
P2c. This god is unwilling to prevent all evil, in which case he is not omnibenevolent.
​
C. Therefore, no such god exists. (modus tollens)
​

The difficulty with this argument, as I see it, is that P1c and P2c are assumptions: that if a good God exists, he would instantly want to eradicate all evil everywhere. Yet, as Augustine argued (and the Bible shows us), God's plans include evil acts when a greater good results from them (Joseph, the Crucifixion, etc.). Second, I would also rewrite P2c:


P2c'. This god is unwilling to prevent all evil yet.
​

Note, for example, Paul's speech to the Athenians:

"The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead. (Acts 17:30-31)​

Or 2 Peter:

Scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires. They will say, "Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation." ...

But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed. (2 Pet. 3:3-4, 8-10)​

Once you understand that God is operating on his own timetable (not Epicurus's or Hume's) and his tolerance of evil is only temporary, the problem of evil unravels. Justice for evil will be done, and it will be seen to be done.
 
Ekklesian said:
Yes, Satan is God's creation. And the creation narrative isn't about the world of spirits. We're told very little about their plane of existence. But physical light and darkness are used as pictures of good and evil throughout the Scriptures, and I was alluding to that, and to the point that evil originated prior to creation.
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Did evil exist before creation? I don't seem to find that anywhere...your opinion again??? UGH!
 
Ekklesian said:
Darkness was there in the beginning. God never said, Let there be darkness. He said, Let there be light, and He divided the light from the darkness.

Evil was there before Creation. It was not created.
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You'll have to prove that from Scripture! I don't believe you can. Your opinion on the matter isn't valid proof.
 
AverageJoe said:
Did evil exist before creation? I don't seem to find that anywhere...your opinion again??? UGH!
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I didn’t catch his comment the first time, but you’re right. It would make no sense for someone to say evil “originated prior to creation” because that would be calling God the creator of evil. Hopefully Ekkk misspoke there…I pray he doesn’t actually believe that!
 
Huk said:
I didn’t catch his comment the first time, but you’re right. It would make no sense for someone to say evil “originated prior to creation” because that would be calling God the creator of evil.
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I suppose the existence of evil prior to creation depends on whether or not the fall of Satan occurred prior to creation. Scripture is vague about that. I would say not--because if Satan was cast out of heaven, there had to be somewhere to be banished to.
 
Ransom said:
Hume was popularlizing an earlier argument from Epicurus. Not knowing better, I assume Augustine was familiar with Epicurus, and was thus able to respond to it in the way you state, more or less: a morally good God can exist and allow evil to exist if there is a sufficiently good reason to do so.

And once again I cite Joseph's brothers selling him into slavery: "You meant it for evil, but God meant it for good" (Gen. 50:20)--the sufficiently good reason being the preservation of life.

Anyway, the Hume/Epicurean form of the argument goes something like this:

​
P1. If an omnipresent, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent god exists, then evil does not exist.​
​
P1a. This god is aware of all evil.​
P1b. This god would be able to prevent all evil.​
P1c. This god would want to prevent all evil.​
​

P2. Evil exists.​
​
P2a. Either this god does not know about all evil, in which case he is not omnipresent; or​
P2b. This god is unable to prevent all evil, in which chase he is not omnipotent; or​
P2c. This god is unwilling to prevent all evil, in which case he is not omnibenevolent.​
​

C. Therefore, no such god exists. (modus tollens)​
​

The difficulty with this argument, as I see it, is that P1c and P2c are assumptions: that if a good God exists, he would instantly want to eradicate all evil everywhere. Yet, as Augustine argued (and the Bible shows us), God's plans include evil acts when a greater good results from them (Joseph, the Crucifixion, etc.). Second, I would also rewrite P2c:

​
P2c'. This god is unwilling to prevent all evil yet.​
​

Note, for example, Paul's speech to the Athenians:

"The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead. (Acts 17:30-31)​

Or 2 Peter:

Scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires. They will say, "Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation." ...​
​
But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed. (2 Pet. 3:3-4, 8-10)​

Once you understand that God is operating on his own timetable (not Epicurus's or Hume's) and his tolerance of evil is only temporary, the problem of evil unravels. Justice for evil will be done, and it will be seen to be done.
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If I correctly understand, what you’re saying is that God permitted evil for the ultimate purpose of good, just as physical suffering can ultimately drive one further into spiritual benefit…a bit like the atheist in the foxhole suddenly surrendering to God before losing his life to a bullet.
 
Ransom said:
I suppose the existence of evil prior to creation depends on whether or not the fall of Satan occurred prior to creation. Scripture is vague about that. I would say not--because if Satan was cast out of heaven, there had to be somewhere to be banished to.
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That’s a fascinating question that I’ve never considered: when was hell created? I always assumed it was created after Satan’s downfall, but that creates questions that, as you alluded to, we probably can’t answer. We know why it was created, but I suppose that’s it. I wonder if this is touched on in the ancient texts and lost in transliteration. Just a thought.
 
Ekklesian said:
On what day did Satan fall?
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We're not given that information. That leaves the question of whether the creation of Adam in the Garden was indeed the first "creation" of the earth, and the heavens, for that matter. If there were one prior to the one in Genesis, then God would be a liar. But, we're not given any indication of the amount of time that Adam and Eve were in the Garden of Eden before the temptation. So, the ball is still in your court to PROVE what your assertion is. I don't believe you can...and God doesn't owe you an answer, nor does anyone else on such a vague assumption by you.
 
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