Why hast thou forsaken me?

[ALAYMAN]

When Christ was made sin for us on the cross what was the extent and nature of separation that caused him to cry out my God my God why has thou forsaken me?

 

[Ron S.]

'God my God why has thou forsaken me' is a quote from the first line of Psalm 22. If you didn't have a book and chapter how would you reference scripture? Possibly by referencing the first line of the song? That seems like it is highly possible since ALL of Psalm 22 is describing what Jesus just experience on the cross.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

When Christ was made sin for us on the cross what was the extent and nature of separation that caused him to cry out my God my God why has thou forsaken me?

I confess that I‘m not positively sure…and there seems to be differing views ‘out there’.
Some say He was separated from the Father as a part of His taking the wrath of the Father…He suffered separation from the Father like those in hell are separated from Him.
Others say He was separated from the Father’s help on the cross…whatever that might entail. They assert that Jesus was not separated from the Father as He died in our place on the cross. Instead He was working together with the Father, fulfilling the Father’s plan, to bear our sins and provide salvation. To me, that last sentence was true however you believe it happened.
I believe the first to be true…either way it’s a marvelous and maybe unfathomable mystery.

 

[aleshanee]

When Christ was made sin for us on the cross what was the extent and nature of separation that caused him to cry out my God my God why has thou forsaken me?

i believe it was a complete separation from God, the Father... in a way none of us still alive can imagine.... and something even Christ Himself had never experienced before until that moment......

 

[ALAYMAN]

'God my God why has thou forsaken me' is a quote from the first line of Psalm 22. If you didn't have a book and chapter how would you reference scripture? Possibly by referencing the first line of the song? That seems like it is highly possible since ALL of Psalm 22 is describing what Jesus just experience on the cross.

Ummm, welcome to our forum and thanks for responding to my thread. Would you care to take a stab at explaining your answer in relationship to my question?

 

[ALAYMAN]

I confess that I‘m not positively sure…and there seems to be differing views ‘out there’.
Some say He was separated from the Father as a part of His taking the wrath of the Father…He suffered separation from the Father like those in hell are separated from Him.
Others say He was separated from the Father’s help on the cross…whatever that might entail. They assert that Jesus was not separated from the Father as He died in our place on the cross. Instead He was working together with the Father, fulfilling the Father’s plan, to bear our sins and provide salvation. To me, that last sentence was true however you believe it happened.
I believe the first to be true…either way it’s a marvelous and maybe unfathomable mystery.

Good insight to the nature of my query. I lean a little more towards the second part of the answer you gave. Disappeared either way it is absolutely mind-boggling and awe-inspiring to think of the love that drove our Savior to that seemingly unbearable and undeserved moment.

 

[Ron S.]

Ummm, welcome to our forum and thanks for responding to my thread. Would you care to take a stab at explaining your answer in relationship to my question?

Thank you for the welcome. Yeah, kind of presumptuous of me to make my very first comment an answer to a question I realize .
Speaking of presumptions though, I think that is generally what prompts us to believe that Jesus here is suggesting that God 'turned His back on him', was 'separated from Him', etc. while on the cross. I don't see that in this Scripture and I think that's why we generally want '2 or more witnesses' before we can put a high level of probability to these propositions.

 

[aleshanee]

Thank you for the welcome. Yeah, kind of presumptuous of me to make my very first comment an answer to a question I realize .
Speaking of presumptions though, I think that is generally what prompts us to believe that Jesus here is suggesting that God 'turned His back on him', was 'separated from Him', etc. while on the cross. I don't see that in this Scripture and I think that's why we generally want '2 or more witnesses' before we can put a high level of probability to these propositions.

so.... are you suggesting that moments before He died... during one of the most painful and agonizing forms of execution in the ancient world..... that, Jesus.. who scripture says came to bear the sins and inequities of the world.. and pay the full price of those sins on our behalf.. . was simply quoting the first line of a psalm?.... ......... ........only in the movies does anyone quote poetry at the moment of their death.... especially an agonizing painful death....... .. and no.. i;m not being presumptious..... i have seen it first hand......

..
and further more.... . i was taught that psalm 22 is a prophecy of what would happen to Jesus... and prophecies quite often contain direct quotes of what someone will say in the future....... in psalm 22 david was given a prophesy and a direct quote of what Jesus would say on the cross.... . but you seem to be suggesting that Jesus was quoting David instead..... ..you have it backwards..... ...and if not.... then why did God not send legions of angels to recue Jesus.. His own Son.. from the cross?..... ....because at that moment when Jesus paid the price of our sin... sin that is abhorent to God.... God turned His back on Him.....

 

[Ron S.]

so.... are you suggesting that moments before He died... during one of the most painful and agonizing forms of execution in the ancient world..... that, Jesus.. who scripture says came to bear the sins and inequities of the world.. and pay the full price of those sins on our behalf.. . was simply quoting the first line of a psalm?.... ......... ........only in the movies does anyone quote poetry at the moment of their death.... especially an agonizing painful death....... .. and no.. i;m not being presumptious..... i have seen it first hand......

I said that in quoting the first line of what WE call Psalm 22 he would be referencing the ENTIRE song. That's a little more than "simply quoting the first line of a psalm". It isn't poetry, it is prophecy. I'm sure you are familiar with Psalm 22. If you are you will be aware that, in fact, God did not forsake David, nor Israel. It also suggests that God would be extending His promise to the entire world through the completion of the prophecy. Very significant and powerful.
That isn't to say that Jesus couldn't be both pointing to Psalm 22's prophecy and suggesting that the Father had turned from him. There are scholars that suggest that. I'm just pointing out what scripture says, I don't care much for the speculation part.
You sound a bit offended. I apologize, that wasn't my intent. We all have pre-suppositions I just like to try to identify them and separate them from what scripture says. If they end up at the same place, great. If not, maybe we should just keep looking for the answer.

 

[aleshanee]

I said that in quoting the first line of what WE call Psalm 22 he would be referencing the ENTIRE song. That's a little more than "simply quoting the first line of a psalm". It isn't poetry, it is prophecy. I'm sure you are familiar with Psalm 22. If you are you will be aware that, in fact, God did not forsake David, nor Israel. It also suggests that God would be extending His promise to the entire world through the completion of the prophecy. Very significant and powerful.
That isn't to say that Jesus couldn't be both pointing to Psalm 22's prophecy and suggesting that the Father had turned from him. There are scholars that suggest that. I'm just pointing out what scripture says, I don't care much for the speculation part.
You sound a bit offended. I apologize, that wasn't my intent. We all have pre-suppositions I just like to try to identify them and separate them from what scripture says. If they end up at the same place, great. If not, maybe we should just keep looking for the answer.

i am not offended.... .. i am just amazed you apply so much of your own limitations and disfunctions to what the rest of us should see in scripture.. ... ..reminds me of another poem... the blind men and the elephant........ ... .... . i know very well that psalm 22 is a prophecy of what would happen to Jesus... and i also know that prophecies quite often contain direct quotes of what someone will say in the future....... in psalm 22 david was given a prophesy and a direct quote of what Jesus would say on the cross.. ... .. . but you seem to be suggesting that Jesus was quoting David instead..... .. ...... ..you have it backwards..... ...and if not.... then why did God not send legions of angels to recue Jesus.. His own Son.. from the cross?..... ....because at that moment when Jesus paid the price of our sin... sin that is abhorent to God.... God turned His back on Him..... .... .....

 

[Ron S.]

i am not offended.... .. i am just amazed you apply so much of your own limitations and disfunctions to what the rest of us should see in scripture.. ... ..reminds me of another poem... the blind men and the elephant........ ... .... . i know very well that psalm 22 is a prophecy of what would happen to Jesus... and i also know that prophecies quite often contain direct quotes of what someone will say in the future....... in psalm 22 david was given a prophesy and a direct quote of what Jesus would say on the cross.. ... .. . but you seem to be suggesting that Jesus was quoting David instead..... .. ...... ..you have it backwards..... ...and if not.... then why did God not send legions of angels to recue Jesus.. His own Son.. from the cross?..... ....because at that moment when Jesus paid the price of our sin... sin that is abhorent to God.... God turned His back on Him..... .... .....

Okay, great, I’m glad you’re not offended. I’ll just assume that your imputing said ‘dysfunction’ on me isn’t vitriol but … okay, I don’t know what else it would be then actually. I’m not easily offended though.
So you are saying that Jesus was fulfilling the prophecy by making the statement and that David was ‘predicting’ the statement with his prophecy..? That is interesting. Not entirely unprecedented as Jesus did just that with his ‘triumphal entry’. In that case though Jesus did make a point of the fact that he was doing it specifically for the point of fulfilling that prophecy. In this case it would just kind of look like he was cheating though in my opinion.
We KNOW that in the Bible book name/chapter/verse didn’t come about until several hundred years after Jesus walked the earth. We also know that Jews referenced the Tora, Psalms, etc. using the first lines of specific scriptures (historically verifiable). Are you are suggesting that Jesus wasn’t actually thinking about what we call Psalm 22 when he said those words? If He was then there is more evidence that He was pointing TO that scripture than that He was suggesting that the Father had turned from Him. Even then I am leaving that as a possibility, I’m just saying it is presuppositional. Do you have any other scripture to verify that God turned away from Him?

 

[Ron S.]

i am not offended.... .. i am just amazed you apply so much of your own limitations and disfunctions to what the rest of us should see in scripture.. ... ..reminds me of another poem... the blind men and the elephant........ ... .... . i know very well that psalm 22 is a prophecy of what would happen to Jesus... and i also know that prophecies quite often contain direct quotes of what someone will say in the future....... in psalm 22 david was given a prophesy and a direct quote of what Jesus would say on the cross.. ... .. . but you seem to be suggesting that Jesus was quoting David instead..... .. ...... ..you have it backwards..... ...and if not.... then why did God not send legions of angels to recue Jesus.. His own Son.. from the cross?..... ....because at that moment when Jesus paid the price of our sin... sin that is abhorent to God.... God turned His back on Him..... .... .....

"then why did God not send legions of angels to recue Jesus.. His own Son.. from the cross?" - This seems to be a non sequitur. Maybe I'm just not understanding your point...?

 

[Ron S.]

i am not offended.... .. i am just amazed you apply so much of your own limitations and disfunctions to what the rest of us should see in scripture.. ... ..reminds me of another poem... the blind men and the elephant........ ... .... . i know very well that psalm 22 is a prophecy of what would happen to Jesus... and i also know that prophecies quite often contain direct quotes of what someone will say in the future....... in psalm 22 david was given a prophesy and a direct quote of what Jesus would say on the cross.. ... .. . but you seem to be suggesting that Jesus was quoting David instead..... .. ...... ..you have it backwards..... ...and if not.... then why did God not send legions of angels to recue Jesus.. His own Son.. from the cross?..... ....because at that moment when Jesus paid the price of our sin... sin that is abhorent to God.... God turned His back on Him..... .... .....

By the way, I do appreciate learning new things... I can think of a lot of Old Testament prophecy quoted in the New Testament, but I can't seem to bring to mind any prophecy that is predicting something someone will specifically say. Could you possibly site one for me? Thanks.

 

[aleshanee]

Okay, great, I’m glad you’re not offended. I’ll just assume that your imputing said ‘dysfunction’ on me isn’t vitriol but … okay, I don’t know what else it would be then actually. I’m not easily offended though.
So you are saying that Jesus was fulfilling the prophecy by making the statement and that David was ‘predicting’ the statement with his prophecy..? That is interesting. Not entirely unprecedented as Jesus did just that with his ‘triumphal entry’. In that case though Jesus did make a point of the fact that he was doing it specifically for the point of fulfilling that prophecy. In this case it would just kind of look like he was cheating though in my opinion.
We KNOW that in the Bible book name/chapter/verse didn’t come about until several hundred years after Jesus walked the earth. We also know that Jews referenced the Tora, Psalms, etc. using the first lines of specific scriptures (historically verifiable). Are you are suggesting that Jesus wasn’t actually thinking about what we call Psalm 22 when he said those words? If He was then there is more evidence that He was pointing TO that scripture than that He was suggesting that the Father had turned from Him. Even then I am leaving that as a possibility, I’m just saying it is presuppositional. Do you have any other scripture to verify that God turned away from Him?

so... ... are we to understand you to be suggesting that if the chapter and verse divisions put into scripture hundred of years later had existed in the time of Christ .. rather than saying what naturally comes to the mind of most people dying under those kinds of extreme circumstances.... (crying out to God for help who He believes has forsaken Him).. that instead Jesus would have cryed out "Psalm chapter 22!.. Verse 1 !..."..before dying.... ? ....... ..... .......sorry but it sounds like that is what you are suggesting....and you are talking like a Jehovas Witness.... (are you by the way?....... no?.... just wondering)...... ... ....... and if your sarcastic and condescending way of answering alayman was not intended to cause offense... then what was it?...... .... .i.. presumed ...that must simply be the way you communicated... and so i answered you in kind....... ...

have you ever heard someone cry out as they were murdered?...butchered without regard to their dignity?... ........ .i have seen it... both heard and saw what happened... was less than 8 feet away.... and both the sounds and images of it never leave my head... ... the only thing that went through her mind as she was screaming was how much she didn;t want to die...... we don;t know what went through the mind of Christ when He cried out.... but we could just take Him for the actual words He spoke.... and assume that since He was dying in our place He cried out as we would have... ...

i have no doubt Christ knew what He was saying was a fulfillment of what David had propheseid under inspiration... (not predicted... there is a difference)... and i also have no doubt that as the Son of God He knew in advance that is what He would say..... .but beyond that everything we are saying about this is a kind of speculation as none of us were there to actually witness it.... that;s what the OP asked us to do.... specualte in what we believed was happening to Jesus in that scripture.. what was the degree of separation.. if any.. from the Father... .. but instead of answering you chose to correct the OP writers understanding of basic theology.. and suggest it was a simple quoting of psalms in a way that almost questions the Diety of Christ.... one could be forgiven for reading all you have written here and assuming you think Jesus could have been simply a talented hukster who chose to recite poetry on the cross.... rather than being the Son of God suffering the wages of sin on our behalf.....

we have all seen this before.... you are nothing new.... ..you come in and say something that borders offense if not actually crossing the line.... then make an exclamation of... "oh my... i hope i didn;t offend you".... when answered according to your own manners.... then you end up implying it was you who should have been offended but proclaim that you won;t be....and imply you are above all that.... the better christian so to speak....... ......what;s next?....... ..declare us all scorners coz we didn;t bow before your lofty assumptions and then dust your feet off at the door as you make your exit?..........

 

[Ransom]

When Christ was made sin for us on the cross what was the extent and nature of separation that caused him to cry out my God my God why has thou forsaken me?

No separation at all.

Ontologically, there is one God, indivisible, as the Athanasian Creed affirms: "We worship one God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity, neither confusing the persons nor dividing the substance." To claim the Father forsook the Son is to say God forsook himself.

The Father and Son are at unity in purpose. The Son does the will of the Father, and the Father loves the Son (John 5:19-20). "I do as the Father has commanded me, so that the world may know that I love the Father" (John 14:13). Jesus' death on the cross pleased the Father, because the Son was doing the work the Father sent him to do. It is impossible that the Son could have failed to do what was set out for him, or that the Father would not be pleased with the work of the Son, because there is no conflict of will between the persons of the Trinity.

Psychologically, Christ's suffering may have felt like he was forsaken. But he had to have known otherwise. Psalm 22 begins with the suffering of the servant, but it ends with salvation for the people. It was a theological statement, not a cry of despair.

 

[aleshanee]

No separation at all.

Ontologically, there is one God, indivisible, as the Athanasian Creed affirms: "We worship one God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity, neither confusing the persons nor dividing the substance." To claim the Father forsook the Son is to say God forsook himself.

The Father and Son are at unity in purpose. The Son does the will of the Father, and the Father loves the Son (John 5:19-20). "I do as the Father has commanded me, so that the world may know that I love the Father" (John 14:13). Jesus' death on the cross pleased the Father, because the Son was doing the work the Father sent him to do. It is impossible that the Son could have failed to do what was set out for him, or that the Father would not be pleased with the work of the Son, because there is no conflict of will between the persons of the Trinity.

Psychologically, Christ's suffering may have felt like he was forsaken. But he had to have known otherwise. Psalm 22 begins with the suffering of the servant, but it ends with salvation for the people. It was a theological statement, not a cry of despair.

though i disagree with much of that... (not all).... i still believe what you wrote is a much better way to answer.... .thank you for explaning your view that way...... . ..by the way... i agree that Christ knew the ultimate outcome of what was happening and that He knew his feeling of being forsaken by God was temporary... ...He knew God would not abandon Him in the end...... ..but i think the excruciating pain and realization He was dying in such a way.. overwhelmed the human part of Him.. and He cried out as any human being suffering torture in such a way would...

 

[Ron S.]

so... ... are we to understand you to be suggesting that if the chapter and verse divisions put into scripture hundred of years later had existed in the time of Christ .. rather than saying what naturally comes to the mind of most people dying under those kinds of extreme circumstances.... (crying out to God for help who He believes has forsaken Him).. that instead Jesus would have cryed out "Psalm chapter 22!.. Verse !..."..before dying.... ? ....... ..... .......sorry but it sounds like that is what you are suggesting....and you are talking like a Jehovas Witness.... (are you by the way?....... no?.... just wondering)...... ... ....... and if your sarcastic and condescending way of answering alayman was not intended to cause offense... then what was it?...... .... .i.. presumed ...that must simply be the way you communicated... and so i answered you in kind....... ...

i have no doubt Christ knew what He was saying was a fulfillment of what David had propheseid under inspiration... (not predicted... there is a difference)... and i also have no doubt that as the Son of God He knew in advance that is what He would say..... .but beyond that everything we are saying about this is a kind of speculation as none of us were there to actually witness it.... that;s what the OP asked us to do.... specualte in what we believed was happening to Jesus in that scripture.... but instead of answering you chose to correct the OP writers understanding of basic theology.. and suggest it was a simple quoting of psalms in a way that almost questions the Diety of Christ.... one could be forgiven for reading all you have written here and assuming you think Jesus could have been simply a talented hukster who chose to recite poetry on the cross.... rather than being the Son of God suffering the wages of sin on our behalf.....

we have all seen this before.... you are nothing new.... ..you come in a say something that borders offense if not actually crossing the line.... then make an exclamation of... "oh my... i hope i didn;t offend you".... when answered according to your own manners.... then you end up implying it was you who should have been offended but proclaim that you won;t be....and imply you are above all that.... the better christian so to speak....... ......what;s next?....... ..declare us all scorners coz we didn;t bow before your lofty assumptions and then dust your feet off at the door as you make your exit?..........

I went back and read my original post again. Is it because I posed my response in question form? I’m genuinely struggling to figure out how a person can respond to questions without it becoming immediately rivalrous just because I have differing view. My next reply had the word ‘presumption’ in it and I know that can feel offensive when we don’t feel like we have one. I thought I covered it by pointing to mine initially and subsequently stating that we all have them. It seems like you’re used to conversations being contentious. That’s a shame, I find this to be an interesting topic and, whether you believe my sincerity or now, I was genuinely just trying to help.

I don’t know what ‘talking like a Jehovas Witness’ comes from. I don’t believe I ever questioned the deity of Christ though, so, no I’m not.

“beyond that everything we are saying about this is a kind of speculation” – I agree with you 100%. I apologize again if I was somehow making it sound like I KNOW what was Jesus meant. I was not trying to speak for Him, I was just showing you an angle that I thought you may not have seen previously.

“that;s what the OP asked us to d” -The original question was posed as a presupposition so either they had disregarded it or had not considered the possibility that Jesus was referencing the scripture.

“but instead of answering you chose to correct the OP writers understanding of basic theology” –I understand you believe you have a complete understanding of this scripture and no one should be on this board questioning your understanding. If that is true I assume your welcome was more of a ‘please leave’…?

“and suggest it was a simple quoting of psalms in a way that almost questions the Diety of Christ” –Oh, this is where you got the Jehovas Witness thing from. I have no idea how or why what I said would be questioning Christ’s deity.

Okay, I started typing this response as I was reading your post top down, so that I wouldn’t skip something you felt was important. Having completed the reading I will go ahead and post it anyway but you obviously have no intentions of having a civilized conversation about what the Bible SAYS. It does SAY things Aleshanee. Hopefully someday you’ll be more interested in what it says than what you think it means. You are VERY protective of your system, to the point of vicious. I don’t have to have this conversation so it really isn’t a big deal to me. I do worry about posters here in general. You say you do this a lot huh? Yikes. Are there any moderators on here?

By the way, nothing that I pointed out that the Bible SAYS changes anything in your paradigm. You could have accepted what the Bible says AND kept your presupposition but scripture isn’t your authority, Grudem’s Systematic Theology is.

 

[Ron S.]

I went back and read my original post again. Is it because I posed my response in question form? I’m genuinely struggling to figure out how a person can respond to questions without it becoming immediately rivalrous just because I have differing view. My next reply had the word ‘presumption’ in it and I know that can feel offensive when we don’t feel like we have one. I thought I covered it by pointing to mine initially and subsequently stating that we all have them. It seems like you’re used to conversations being contentious. That’s a shame, I find this to be an interesting topic and, whether you believe my sincerity or now, I was genuinely just trying to help.

I don’t know what ‘talking like a Jehovas Witness’ comes from. I don’t believe I ever questioned the deity of Christ though, so, no I’m not.

“beyond that everything we are saying about this is a kind of speculation” – I agree with you 100%. I apologize again if I was somehow making it sound like I KNOW what was Jesus meant. I was not trying to speak for Him, I was just showing you an angle that I thought you may not have seen previously.

“that;s what the OP asked us to d” -The original question was posed as a presupposition so either they had disregarded it or had not considered the possibility that Jesus was referencing the scripture.

“but instead of answering you chose to correct the OP writers understanding of basic theology” –I understand you believe you have a complete understanding of this scripture and no one should be on this board questioning your understanding. If that is true I assume your welcome was more of a ‘please leave’…?

“and suggest it was a simple quoting of psalms in a way that almost questions the Diety of Christ” –Oh, this is where you got the Jehovas Witness thing from. I have no idea how or why what I said would be questioning Christ’s deity.

Okay, I started typing this response as I was reading your post top down, so that I wouldn’t skip something you felt was important. Having completed the reading I will go ahead and post it anyway but you obviously have no intentions of having a civilized conversation about what the Bible SAYS. It does SAY things Aleshanee. Hopefully someday you’ll be more interested in what it says than what you think it means. You are VERY protective of your system, to the point of vicious. I don’t have to have this conversation so it really isn’t a big deal to me. I do worry about posters here in general. You say you do this a lot huh? Yikes. Are there any moderators on here?

By the way, nothing that I pointed out that the Bible SAYS changes anything in your paradigm. You could have accepted what the Bible says AND kept your presupposition but scripture isn’t your authority, Grudem’s Systematic Theology is.

Sorry, I just went back and read...it wasn't YOU that welcomed me. I guess you are more consistent than I thought in any case.

 

[Ron S.]

No separation at all.

Ontologically, there is one God, indivisible, as the Athanasian Creed affirms: "We worship one God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity, neither confusing the persons nor dividing the substance." To claim the Father forsook the Son is to say God forsook himself.

The Father and Son are at unity in purpose. The Son does the will of the Father, and the Father loves the Son (John 5:19-20). "I do as the Father has commanded me, so that the world may know that I love the Father" (John 14:13). Jesus' death on the cross pleased the Father, because the Son was doing the work the Father sent him to do. It is impossible that the Son could have failed to do what was set out for him, or that the Father would not be pleased with the work of the Son, because there is no conflict of will between the persons of the Trinity.

Psychologically, Christ's suffering may have felt like he was forsaken. But he had to have known otherwise. Psalm 22 begins with the suffering of the servant, but it ends with salvation for the people. It was a theological statement, not a cry of despair.

Ransom,
Thanks for posting. It does look very good. I will definitely study your way of saying it...I hate starting things out with contention.

 

[aleshanee]

Sorry, I just went back and read...it wasn't YOU that welcomed me. I guess you are more consistent than I thought in any case.

scripture is very much my authority..... but your opinions of me are not.... and you are correct i did not welcome you here.... but had your first posts on this subject been something other than sarcastic condescension i would have.... ..who knows what would have happened had you started off with a "this is how i see it" kind of approach rather than a... "i;m the authority of all things regarding scripture on earth and i guess i;m gonna have to teach you dunderheads something"...... ....humility and mutual respect are the keys to decent conversation..... you came off in my opinion as arrogant... .... newcomers to a forum don;t usually come in that way with their very first post... unless they are a recycled former member coming back under a different name... whichever you are, i don;t care.... . i;ll make an agreement to stop responding to you and you can pretend to ignore me as well.....

you don;t know me at all.... ..yet you made many false assumptions about me in your extended post... ... assumptions about intelligence... personality and personal tendencies....and assumptions with added insults about what you think i must believe.. which system of theological study etc etc.... . .....i wondered if you might be a jehovahs witness because that;s how they operate.... never directly answering a question... but attempting to impress you with how smart they think they are instead... .... . ..... but now i don;t care either way what you are.... this is the last time i will even refer to you here.... ... enjoy your time on the forum.... unless you want to keep making insults .. either to me or about me ..... because then you might not... .....

edit......
and... ..... i was going to let it go at that.... until i saw your edit and the continued insults you added above in your filibister post... i was saved at age 8 and have studied the bible ever since... in multiple languages and versions.... .. i can discuss scripture with most anyone here.. ask the ones who have known me here on the FFF since 2004..... but i will not discuss anything while being talked down to in the manner that apears to be your style... .. ...i stopped a long time ago trying to reason with those who believe man can figure out an infinite and omnipotent God through the use of their limited brains and finite human logic.. ..regardless of how many latin terms they fall back on to try and make themselves sound smart.... .... one would think you believe makind created God rather than the other way around... ... .......

you come in here as a newcomer.. play the know it all ...get told you really aren;t.. .. start a fight slinging insults at someone who has been of the FFF for almost 18 years and doesn;t care to read your self absorbed pontifications..... you get a few insults.. of the exact same nature you threw first... thrown right back at you.. and now you try to play victim and appeal to a moderator?...... nice way to try and assume high ground while sitting in the mud..... seriously.... grow up..... . ..you fit the profile perfectly of what i said you are... vince massi has nothing on you....

so again.... . it;s up to you..... do you want to mutually agree to disagree... let it go and ignore each other?........ or are you going to continue trying to prove your pseudo intellectual superiority?.... and appealing to a moderator to fix the mess you started?.. ..i don;t need this conversation either.... ..and i don;t need you.. . but i am not in the least bothered by your presence here.... this forum has an ignore feature.... . it might be your best friend......