Ekklesian’s Discussion Thread

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Ekklesian - for when you get back from Denver. I’ve kept my word and started a thread just for you. If you can start with some basic truthfulness and stop acting out, we’ll let the debate begin. To start, answer the following question:

* Are you in fact a Christian? If so, what makes you a Christian.
 
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Ekklesian - for when you get back from Denver. I’ve kept my word and started a thread just for you. If you can start with some basic truthfulness and stop acting out, we’ll let the debate begin. To start, answer the following question:

* Are you in fact a Christian? If so, what makes you a Christian.
You said you wanted to debate science phiolosophies, not interview me.

Oh well.

There are actually two questions there. To the first, Yes. To the second, my baptism.

Now the second question might be asking, what makes anyone a Christian. If you define a 'Christian' narrowly as one who has been born of God, is a partaker of the divine nature and has the Spirit of Christ abiding in him, then you really can't tell who is a Christian or not, because those are invisible things. But I would meet that definition as well, and faith is what makes me a Christian in that respect.

Acts says that the 'disciples' were first called 'Christians.'

So, if you define a 'Christian' as the Scriptures do, as a 'disciple of Christ,' or, as one who accepts and obeys the teachings of Christ as delivered by the Evangelists and Apostles, then it's one's baptism that makes him a Christian.
 
You said you wanted to debate science phiolosophies, not interview me.

Oh well.

There are actually two questions there. To the first, Yes. To the second, my baptism.

Now the second question might be asking, what makes anyone a Christian. If you define a 'Christian' narrowly as one who has been born of God, is a partaker of the divine nature and has the Spirit of Christ abiding in him, then you really can't tell who is a Christian or not, because those are invisible things. But I would meet that definition as well, and faith is what makes me a Christian in that respect.

Acts says that the 'disciples' were first called 'Christians.'

So, if you define a 'Christian' as the Scriptures do, as a 'disciple of Christ,' or, as one who accepts and obeys the teachings of Christ as delivered by the Evangelists and Apostles, then it's one's baptism that makes him a Christian.
I just want to be clear. You consider the act of baptism as a condition for salvation, not as a public testament of salvation. Is this correct?
 
I just want to be clear. You consider the act of baptism as a condition for salvation, not as a public testament of salvation. Is this correct?
No. It's like you didn't even read my post.

Now the second question might be asking, what makes anyone a Christian. If you define a 'Christian' narrowly as one who has been born of God, is a partaker of the divine nature and has the Spirit of Christ abiding in him, then you really can't tell who is a Christian or not, because those are invisible things. But I would meet that definition as well, and faith is what makes me a Christian in that respect.
 
.'

Ekk said: So, if you define a 'Christian' as the Scriptures do, as a 'disciple of Christ,' or, as one who accepts and obeys the teachings of Christ as delivered by the Evangelists and Apostles, then it's one's baptism that makes him a Christian.

I can see where he got the idea that you might believe that way. Looks pretty obvious to me......
 
Only if you speak "Stupid,," Which apparently you do. ;)
Far deeper objections may be felt—and have been expressed— against my use of the word Christian to mean one who accepts the common doctrines of Christianity. People ask: "Who are you, to lay down who is, and who is not a Christian?" or "May not many a man who cannot believe these doctrines be far more truly a Christian, far closer to the spirit of Christ, than some who do?" Now this objection is in one sense very right, very charitable, very spiritual, very sensitive. It has every amiable quality except that of being useful. We simply cannot, without disaster, use language as these objectors want us to use it. I will try to make this clear by the history of another, and very much less important, word. The word gentleman originally meant something recognisable; one who had a coat of arms and some landed property. When you called someone "a gentleman" you were not paying him a compliment, but merely stating a fact. If you said he was not "a gentleman" you were not insulting him, but giving information. There was no contradiction in saying that John was a liar and a gentleman; any more than there now is in saying that James is a fool and an M.A. But then there came people who said—so rightly, charitably, spiritually, sensitively, so anything but usefully—"Ah, but surely the important thing about a gentleman is not the coat of arms and the land, but the behaviour? Surely he is the true gentleman who behaves as a gentleman should? Surely in that sense Edward is far more truly a gentleman than John?" They meant well. To be honourable and courteous and brave is of course a far better thing than to have a coat of arms. But it is not the same thing. Worse still, it is not a thing everyone will agree about. To call a man "a gentleman" in this new, refined sense, becomes, in fact, not a way of giving information about him, but a way of praising him: to deny that he is "a gentleman" becomes simply a way of insulting him. When a word ceases to be a term of description and becomes merely a term of praise, it no longer tells you facts about the object: it only tells you about the speaker's attitude to that object. (A "nice" meal only means a meal the speaker likes.) A gentleman, once it has been spiritualised and refined out of its old coarse, objective sense, means hardly more than a man whom the speaker likes. As a result, gentleman is now a useless word. We had lots of terms of approval already, so it was not needed for that use; on the other hand if anyone (say, in a historical work) wants to use it in its old sense, he cannot do so without explanations. It has been spoiled for that purpose. Now if once we allow people to start spiritualising and refining, or as they might say "deepening," the sense of the word Christian, it too will speedily become a useless word. In the first place, Christians themselves will never be able to apply it to anyone. It is not for us to say who, in the deepest sense, is or is not close to the spirit of Christ. We do not see into men's hearts. We cannot judge, and are indeed forbidden to judge. It would be wicked arrogance for us to say that any man is, or is not, a Christian in this refined sense. And obviously a word which we can never apply is not going to be a very useful word. As for the unbelievers, they will no doubt cheerfully use the word in the refined sense. It will become in their mouths simply a term of praise. In calling anyone a Christian they will mean that they think him a good man. But that way of using the word will be no enrichment of the language, for we already have the word good. Meanwhile, the word Christian will have been spoiled for any really useful purpose it might have served. We must therefore stick to the original, obvious meaning. The name Christians was first given at Antioch (Acts xi. 26) to "the disciples," to those who accepted the teaching of the apostles. There is no question of its being restricted to those who profited by that teaching as much as they should have. There is no question of its being extended to those who in some refined, spiritual, inward fashion were "far closer to the spirit of Christ" than the less satisfactory of the disciples. The point is not a theological, or moral one. It is only a question of using words so that we can all understand what is being said. When a man who accepts the Christian doctrine lives unworthily of it, it is much clearer to say he is a bad Christian than to say he is not a Christian.
C. S. Lewis. Mere Christianity
 
Far deeper objections may be felt—and have been expressed— against my use of the word Christian to mean one who accepts the common doctrines of Christianity. People ask: "Who are you, to lay down who is, and who is not a Christian?" or "May not many a man who cannot believe these doctrines be far more truly a Christian, far closer to the spirit of Christ, than some who do?" Now this objection is in one sense very right, very charitable, very spiritual, very sensitive. It has every amiable quality except that of being useful. We simply cannot, without disaster, use language as these objectors want us to use it. I will try to make this clear by the history of another, and very much less important, word. The word gentleman originally meant something recognisable; one who had a coat of arms and some landed property. When you called someone "a gentleman" you were not paying him a compliment, but merely stating a fact. If you said he was not "a gentleman" you were not insulting him, but giving information. There was no contradiction in saying that John was a liar and a gentleman; any more than there now is in saying that James is a fool and an M.A. But then there came people who said—so rightly, charitably, spiritually, sensitively, so anything but usefully—"Ah, but surely the important thing about a gentleman is not the coat of arms and the land, but the behaviour? Surely he is the true gentleman who behaves as a gentleman should? Surely in that sense Edward is far more truly a gentleman than John?" They meant well. To be honourable and courteous and brave is of course a far better thing than to have a coat of arms. But it is not the same thing. Worse still, it is not a thing everyone will agree about. To call a man "a gentleman" in this new, refined sense, becomes, in fact, not a way of giving information about him, but a way of praising him: to deny that he is "a gentleman" becomes simply a way of insulting him. When a word ceases to be a term of description and becomes merely a term of praise, it no longer tells you facts about the object: it only tells you about the speaker's attitude to that object. (A "nice" meal only means a meal the speaker likes.) A gentleman, once it has been spiritualised and refined out of its old coarse, objective sense, means hardly more than a man whom the speaker likes. As a result, gentleman is now a useless word. We had lots of terms of approval already, so it was not needed for that use; on the other hand if anyone (say, in a historical work) wants to use it in its old sense, he cannot do so without explanations. It has been spoiled for that purpose. Now if once we allow people to start spiritualising and refining, or as they might say "deepening," the sense of the word Christian, it too will speedily become a useless word. In the first place, Christians themselves will never be able to apply it to anyone. It is not for us to say who, in the deepest sense, is or is not close to the spirit of Christ. We do not see into men's hearts. We cannot judge, and are indeed forbidden to judge. It would be wicked arrogance for us to say that any man is, or is not, a Christian in this refined sense. And obviously a word which we can never apply is not going to be a very useful word. As for the unbelievers, they will no doubt cheerfully use the word in the refined sense. It will become in their mouths simply a term of praise. In calling anyone a Christian they will mean that they think him a good man. But that way of using the word will be no enrichment of the language, for we already have the word good. Meanwhile, the word Christian will have been spoiled for any really useful purpose it might have served. We must therefore stick to the original, obvious meaning. The name Christians was first given at Antioch (Acts xi. 26) to "the disciples," to those who accepted the teaching of the apostles. There is no question of its being restricted to those who profited by that teaching as much as they should have. There is no question of its being extended to those who in some refined, spiritual, inward fashion were "far closer to the spirit of Christ" than the less satisfactory of the disciples. The point is not a theological, or moral one. It is only a question of using words so that we can all understand what is being said. When a man who accepts the Christian doctrine lives unworthily of it, it is much clearer to say he is a bad Christian than to say he is not a Christian.
C. S. Lewis. Mere Christianity
Like I said..more "cut-and-paste." No original thought....you're incapable of it! Thanks for proving us right.
 
You said you wanted to debate science phiolosophies, not interview me.
I’m just trying to establish your belief system, which has been a difficult thing over the course of the past couple of weeks. Originally, if you recall, I stated that you sounded like a humanist/agnostic/etc. Shortly thereafter, you changed your tune and sounded like an ardent fundamentalist.
If you define a 'Christian' narrowly as one who has been born of God, is a partaker of the divine nature and has the Spirit of Christ abiding in him, then you really can't tell who is a Christian or not, because those are invisible things.
I would disagree. Maybe you can’t tell by a haircut or clothing, but Galatians 5:22-23 clearly delineates the fruit of the spirit, and I’d argue many of those are clearly visible to the naked eye.
So, if you define a 'Christian' as the Scriptures do, as a 'disciple of Christ,' or, as one who accepts and obeys the teachings of Christ as delivered by the Evangelists and Apostles, then it's one's baptism that makes him a Christian.
You’re making this far too difficult, and leaving out a key component. Children in Sunday Schools across the world are taught the ABCs of salvation as the only *true* way of being a Christian, and it has zero to do with baptism or just believing in the historicity of the Scriptures. A - admit you’re a sinner (Romans 3:23). B - Believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and that He is the only way to obtain salvation – to get to heaven (John 3:16). C - Confess your sin and faith in Jesus Christ (1 John 1:9).
 
I would disagree. Maybe you can’t tell by a haircut or clothing, but Galatians 5:22-23 clearly delineates the fruit of the spirit, and I’d argue many of those are clearly visible to the naked eye.
You still cannot judge the heart, and there many who preach Christ, and cast out devils, and do many wonderful works that have never known Him.
You’re making this far too difficult, and leaving out a key component. Children in Sunday Schools across the world are taught the ABCs of salvation as the only *true* way of being a Christian, and it has zero to do with baptism or just believing in the historicity of the Scriptures. A - admit you’re a sinner (Romans 3:23). B - Believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and that He is the only way to obtain salvation – to get to heaven (John 3:16). C - Confess your sin and faith in Jesus Christ (1 John 1:9).
It's only difficult because you're not used to it. If you want to define a Christian as only those who are saved, then, as Lewis said, a Christian is only one that YOU think is saved.

But that's neither here nor there. I've already said that salvation is by faith.

Moving on . . .
 
By the way, I’ve taken it upon myself to change the name of this thread from “debate” to “discussion.” “Debate” can have a negative connotation, and I’m not looking for negativity with you, despite your belief that it’s “you vs us.”
 
You still cannot judge the heart, and there many who preach Christ, and cast out devils, and do many wonderful works that have never known Him.
There’s an element of truth in what you said, but I still believe in most Christians, those fruits of the spirit should manifest themselves over the course of time. Obviously Christians can become backslidden, but generally speaking, the fruits should be present.
But that's neither here nor there. I've already said that salvation is by faith.
You often mention faith, baptism, etc. I haven’t seen you actually respond to the “A” and “C” components. Has there been a time in your life you’ve actually admitted you’re a sinner and confessed your sins to God? Just having faith doesn’t cut it. As I said last week, Satan also has faith in Jesus.
 
You're not "truth." You're more like a "dare." Have you stopped beating your wife yet??? Or is it true that your wife's name is Robert? ;)
I guess Ekk decided against continuing the conversation. He said he was “moving on.” 🤷🏻‍♂️
 
A Double minded man is unstble in ALL his ways. eKKK will be back!
On a serious note, based on his rantings, do any of you have any idea what his actual religious affiliation is? I definitely don’t think he’s a Baptist, I’m just not sure what he is. He seems to believe in Jesus, but not in a traditional Christian manner. Mormon? Jehovah? I really don’t have enough experience to “see through the fog.” Originally he struck me as agnostic leaning.
 
He was pretty much quoting from a pseudo-Catholic website in one of his rants.
I thought Catholic was a possibility as well. There were a few items he seemed to be leaning in that direction. Then again, maybe Joe’s right, and he’s just a troll.
 
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