Theodicy, will we ever know the full origins of evil?

[AverageJoe]

So again you're putting forth God had to have a desire to want to see evil so that his goodness can be compared. I disagree. I may have made a world of round wheels. There would be no demand or desire by me to see square wheels brought forth. No need at all and just a waste of material.

I don't see him putting forth that theory...I do, however, see you once again reading into what someone has stated what you WANT them to say. Sad, really....very sad.

And this is the crux of the whole matter. Calvinists would claim having a free will would be less than good. The Bible says the opposite.

Being a Calvinist has NOTHING to do with it. Again, your preconceived notions.

 

[Leatherneck0311]

I'm not sure I understand the connection you are making in reference to Satan and Eve. I particularly don't think that comparing Satan's temptation of Eve (and her desire to incline her ear to Satan) is analogous to the pursuit of actual/real truth (about the origin of sin). I agree that to pursue carnal knowledge, or worldly knowledge that leads us away from Christ is wrong. And I think it's fair to say that some things are simply unknowable (I stated this early on in the thread) and in spending too much time (philosophically "navel gazing") pursuing "the secret things" we show ourselves to be foolish and potentially far less productive in the kingdom than we ought to be. This debate, in all of its entanglements about the nature of man and the nature of God, is an ages old discussion. I find it fascinating because the roots of what a person believes about both, the nature of God AND man, will shape their theological priorities and emphases within the doctrinal/ethical/evangelical life. The crux of my question about the cause/origin of evil isn't by any means new. How evil came to exist in a world of a God who is eternally and infinitely good is beyond perplexing. I don't think I'll find a satisfactory answer (hence, the OP question about whether we'd even know the answer in heaven), but I like to think about things that are challenging.

I try to keep things about God, Satan, and man confined to what is revealed in and explained in and by scripture. My take is satan corrupted himself through pride and wanting to be above God( beginning of evil) then corrupted mankind by tempting Eve with what had corrupted him.—->Gen 3:5 - For God doth know that in the day ye eat there of, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

 

[ALAYMAN]

I try to keep things about God, Satan, and man confined to what is revealed in and explained in and by scripture. My take is satan corrupted himself through pride and wanting to be above God( beginning of evil) then corrupted mankind by tempting Eve with what had corrupted him.—->Gen 3:5 - For God doth know that in the day ye eat there of, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

I have great respect for that bro. There's much to be credited for that old K.I.S.S. (keep it simple st#*%#) saying.

 

[AverageJoe]

Yes, a wonderful Scripture which I firmly believe. Lucifer was wonderfully observant of God and honoring Him, until he wasn’t. However, that verse doesn’t give the “why” of Lucifer’s iniquity, so the question still stands, why would a perfect and good creation of God at ANY time in its existence suddenly incline towards something not good?

Doesn't it, ALAY? 'I will be like the most high!" Envying.....Satans first sin?

 

[ALAYMAN]

Doesn't it, ALAY? 'I will be like the most high!" Envying.....Satans first sin?

I think it accurately portrays the first sin, but that Scripture doesn't declare how a good creation of God created perfectly with nothing intrinsic to his being suddenly decided (against all of the nature that was given him by God) to incline towards a desire that was evil.

 

[AverageJoe]

I think it accurately portrays the first sin, but that Scripture doesn't declare how a good creation of God created perfectly with nothing intrinsic to his being suddenly decided (against all of the nature that was given him by God) to incline towards a desire that was evil.

When any created being, including man, sees power, what does he think? "If I just had that power." I believe this is what Lucifer saw, and what he desired...He wanted to be the top dog! Woof!

 

[ALAYMAN]

When any created being, including man, sees power, what does he think? "If I just had that power." I believe this is what Lucifer saw, and what he desired...He wanted to be the top dog! Woof!

Totally agree that power and the lust for it is intoxicating and alluring, but these are sins that we now know and experience. Up to that point in Lucifer's existence he hadn't experienced anything and God cannot be accused of tempting him, so that means that the improper desire that arose came into being without any influence from The First Cause.

 

[AverageJoe]

Totally agree that power and the lust for it is intoxicating and alluring, but these are sins that we now know and experience. Up to that point in Lucifer's existence he hadn't experienced anything and God cannot be accused of tempting him, so that means that the improper desire that arose came into being without any influence from The First Cause.

I can agree with that. Maybe he was just stupid! LOL

 

[Rockson]

I don't see him putting forth that theory...I do, however, see you once again reading into what someone has stated what you WANT them to say. Sad, really....very sad.

You don't??? How much more clearer can his words be. Here they were,

Does not the goodness of God demand there be the possibility for evil by which God's goodness is compared?

So I just replied back his same words that God wanted, (and he even said demanded) evil to be so his goodness can be compared and you say you don't see him putting forth that theory?????

I mean how in the world can you say what you've said above?

 

[Rockson]

Per Piper (and just about all of Christian hustorical orthodoxy) then if the Angel Lucifer was created good in all respects then what was within him that opted for evil desires?

He was created good in all respects but if you're going to insist that good has to be defined as locked in to always make good decisions that wouldn't make God's creation good and free. A part of that which is good is that a being is at liberty to choose.

 

[ALAYMAN]

He was created good in all respects but if you're going to insist that good has to be defined as locked in to always make good decisions that wouldn't make God's creation good and free. A part of that which is good is that a being is at liberty to choose.

I have great fondness and appreciation for the simple argument (“freewill”) that a moral being is not completely free if not given an equal ability to choose evil. The problem that I have with that argument is that if God is not able by virtue of His nature to tempt the creature/agent, which we know absolutely He is not, then it boggles my mind how a free moral agent who is created in a position and nature that is declared as good by God could even conceive an irrational desire for anything but fidelity and loyalty to the creator of all things that the creature has ever known.

 

[Leatherneck0311]

I have great fondness and appreciation for the simple argument (“freewill”) that a moral being is not completely free if not given an equal ability to choose evil. The problem that I have with that argument is that if God is not able by virtue of His nature to tempt the creature/agent, which we know absolutely He is not, then it boggles my mind how a free moral agent who is created in a position and nature that is declared as good by God could even conceive an irrational desire for anything but fidelity and loyalty to the creator of all things that the creature has ever known.

And it happened twice first with Satan and then with Eve. Satan was created perfect and Eve was created very good according to God ,but neither was ever said to be Holy that title is Gods and His alone.

 

[ALAYMAN]

And it happened twice first with Satan and then with Eve. Satan was created perfect and Eve was created very good according to God ,but neither was ever said to be Holy that title is Gods and His alone.

Not exactly. In the case of Eve she had the clear influence of Satan actively externally presenting temptation. Lucifer had no external influence of temptation. He succumbed to his own will completely and internally.

 

[Leatherneck0311]

Not exactly. In the case of Eve she had the clear influence of Satan actively externally presenting temptation. Lucifer had no external influence of temptation. He succumbed to his own will completely and internally.

I agree to the “not exactly” part, but there are some similarities. Eve was created sinless and had never known anyone but Adam and God. From your post:then it boggles my mind how a free moral agent who is created in a position and nature that is declared as good by God could even conceive an irrational desire for anything but fidelity and loyalty to the creator of all things that the creature has ever known. Eve was created a “free moral agent” who was created in a “position and nature” that God declared “good” ,but you are right about the external temptation as compared to Satan’s internal desire.

 

[AverageJoe]

You don't??? How much more clearer can his words be. Here they were,

Does not the goodness of God demand there be the possibility for evil by which God's goodness is compared?

So I just replied back his same words that God wanted, (and he even said demanded) evil to be so his goodness can be compared and you say you don't see him putting forth that theory?????

I mean how in the world can you say what you've said above?

You don't comprehend well, do you? Operative word "possibility." UGH!

 

[AverageJoe]

I have great fondness and appreciation for the simple argument (“freewill”) that a moral being is not completely free if not given an equal ability to choose evil. The problem that I have with that argument is that if God is not able by virtue of His nature to tempt the creature/agent, which we know absolutely He is not, then it boggles my mind how a free moral agent who is created in a position and nature that is declared as good by God could even conceive an irrational desire for anything but fidelity and loyalty to the creator of all things that the creature has ever known.

True...God cannot tempt man with evil, but, he can leave open the possibility for man to be tempted. Two different animals there!

 

[Rockson]

I have great fondness and appreciation for the simple argument (“freewill”) that a moral being is not completely free if not given an equal ability to choose evil. The problem that I have with that argument is that if God is not able by virtue of His nature to tempt the creature/agent, which we know absolutely He is not, then it boggles my mind how a free moral agent who is created in a position and nature that is declared as good by God could even conceive an irrational desire for anything but fidelity and loyalty to the creator of all things that the creature has ever known.

Well then you're insisting an interpretation about what good has to be. That's fine. We all do that but we do need to have scriptures provide how we're thinking.

So you're agreeing the devil, Lucifer, and MAN, Adam and Eve were defined good. So how can they even have even a notion or even put together an imagination to doing wrong.

Various ways to answer this. 1) I think you should know then.....it demonstrates they were in fact TOTALLY FREE to choose. There was no ordaining them TO SIN for that would make THEM even not good and God has defined free moral agents would be a good thing and a necessary way to make them. When he made them this way he defined them as GOOD.

I'd say too that God created all beings with the capacity to be creative. I'm not talking creative like where God creates worlds with power but creative in how we also use the word....imaginative or to seek to have the capacity to look beyond things seen and develop a vision within one's self of things which are different. Let's say God created MAN and did tell him to replenish the Earth and subdue it. God didn't make all the Earth like the Garden of Eden.

That was the home base God gave them that to start off with. God created MAN to be creative and develop things and we could say it was good that God gave MAN to capacity to be creative. His imaginative capacity however needed to be kept in check and we see this exhortation in Phil 4 .,,that we're to dwell only on thoughts which are true, lovely and pure. But God did make MAN free to choose! So you're question is how could they have had the capacity to even have a notion of evil? Again for the reason that a part of being good is they could be imaginative. They were required though to keep that in check.

Now with Satan in the beginning what thoughts did he choose to develop within himself. I think he actually originally agreed God was good but here's the thing....maybe he's just too good. Maybe being so loving perhaps he's like a wimp and would never stand up towards one resisting him. Therefore he envisioned and asked wouldn't this be a greater type of strength if one who wouldn't keep the things of LOVE? So it was good that he, angels and MAN were created with an ability to be imaginative but they must keep it in check and no go against the things of LOVE. Lucifer however threw caution to the wind and and crossed the line into rebellion for he didn't allow this to be a part of his imaginative process...that he would be cast out of heaven.

He (Jesus) replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. Lk 10:18

He didn't consider that LOVE (God) would have to stop him for he would not be love if he didn't. So I ask doesn't that answer your question? A part of good is to have the capacity to imagine and it wouldn't be good for beings not to have it....that's what LOVE gives....but it must be kept in check and be balanced and it's up to the individual to do so.

This is even true in our everyday lives. Eating food is good and God meant it to be enjoyable. We could say other physicals desires we have as well BUT you must keep that which is good in check and be tempered with wisdom.

 

[Rockson]

True...God cannot tempt man with evil, but, he can leave open the possibility for man to be tempted. Two different animals there!

So then Joe why don't you just take the position that Non-Calvinists have that God merely allows things....and that he doesn't ordain all things.

I do want to clarify though Non-Calvinist do believe God does determine SOME THINGS. The seasons, the tide, the orbits of planets, many other things.....the consequences of those who rebel and the rewards of those who don't. But does God determine or ordain all things.....NO.

 

[Rockson]

You don't comprehend well, do you? Operative word "possibility." UGH!

I don't comprehend well? His postulation and theory was clear. He asked Does not the goodness of God demand there be the possibility for evil that his goodness can be compared to it?

And you say he's not putting forth that as a theory or possibility? Of course he is or he wouldn't have said it! Sorry but it seems you're just delighting in dishing out insults without even thinking through what you're saying.

 

[ALAYMAN]

Well then you're insisting an interpretation about what good has to be. That's fine. We all do that but we do need to have scriptures provide how we're thinking.

So you're agreeing the devil, Lucifer, and MAN, Adam and Eve were defined good. So how can they even have even a notion or even put together an imagination to doing wrong.

Various ways to answer this. 1) I think you should know then.....it demonstrates they were in fact TOTALLY FREE to choose. There was no ordaining them TO SIN for that would make THEM even not good and God has defined free moral agents would be a good thing and a necessary way to make them. When he made them this way he defined them as GOOD.

I'd say too that God created all beings with the capacity to be creative. I'm not talking creative like where God creates worlds with power but creative in how we also use the word....imaginative or to seek to have the capacity to look beyond things seen and develop a vision within one's self of things which are different. Let's say God created MAN and did tell him to replenish the Earth and subdue it. God didn't make all the Earth like the Garden of Eden.

That was the home base God gave them that to start off with. God created MAN to be creative and develop things and we could say it was good that God gave MAN to capacity to be creative. His imaginative capacity however needed to be kept in check and we see this exhortation in Phil 4 .,,that we're to dwell only on thoughts which are true, lovely and pure. But God did make MAN free to choose! So you're question is how could they have had the capacity to even have a notion of evil? Again for the reason that a part of being good is they could be imaginative. They were required though to keep that in check.

Now with Satan in the beginning what thoughts did he choose to develop within himself. I think he actually originally agreed God was good but here's the thing....maybe he's just too good. Maybe being so loving perhaps he's like a wimp and would never stand up towards one resisting him. Therefore he envisioned and asked wouldn't this be a greater type of strength if one who wouldn't keep the things of LOVE? So it was good that he, angels and MAN were created with an ability to be imaginative but they must keep it in check and no go against the things of LOVE. Lucifer however threw caution to the wind and and crossed the line into rebellion for he didn't allow this to be a part of his imaginative process...that he would be cast out of heaven.

He (Jesus) replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. Lk 10:18

He didn't consider that LOVE (God) would have to stop him for he would not be love if he didn't. So I ask doesn't that answer your question? A part of good is to have the capacity to imagine and it wouldn't be good for beings not to have it....that's what LOVE gives....but it must be kept in check and be balanced and it's up to the individual to do so.

This is even true in our everyday lives. Eating food is good and God meant it to be enjoyable. We could say other physicals desires we have as well BUT you must keep that which is good in check and be tempered with wisdom.

I appreciate the time, effort, and thought you put into this post. Unfortunately, I don’t have time to give it justice right now, but I will try to return to it later today. I appreciate the serious and substantive contributions that you have brought to this forum since joining.