Theodicy, will we ever know the full origins of evil?

Rockson said:
I don't comprehend well? His postulation and theory was clear. He asked Does not the goodness of God demand there be the possibility for evil that his goodness can be compared to it?

And you say he's not putting forth that as a theory or possibility? Of course he is or he wouldn't have said it! Sorry but it seems you're just delighting in dishing out insults without even thinking through what you're saying.
Click to expand...
As the Apostle Paul was told by someone once....."Much THINKING has made you mad." You're definitely overthinking and inserting your opinion of what someone said into what was actually said or implied. I stand by my assessment of your drivel!
 
ALAYMAN said:
I appreciate the time, effort, and thought you put into this post. Unfortunately, I don’t have time to give it justice right now, but I will try to return to it later today. I appreciate the serious and substantive contributions that you have brought to this forum since joining.
Click to expand...
Thanks.
 
Rockson said:
Thanks.
Click to expand...
I will attempt to give a brief answer to my conundrum. When I said that I had sympathies for the freewill argument, I truly do understand that the aspect of goodness entails choice. But it is beyond my paygrade to fathom how a human being that never experienced sin and only known the goodness of God could conceivably consider the very irrational “benefits” of the sinful choice. I know that isn’t detailed nor deep, but that truly is my roadblock. Not trying to be or sound Uber-spiritual here, but as somebody who has experienced the grace and joy of God’s mercy and beauty I can’t imagine having ever only known that love and beauty (and being created “good”) and resort to ANY tendency to move away from Him.
 
ALAYMAN said:
But it is beyond my paygrade to fathom how a human being that never experienced sin and only known the goodness of God could conceivably consider the very irrational “benefits” of the sinful choice. I know that isn’t detailed nor deep, but that truly is my roadblock. Not trying to be or sound Uber-spiritual here, but as somebody who has experienced the grace and joy of God’s mercy and beauty I can’t imagine having ever only known that love and beauty (and being created “good”) and resort to ANY tendency to move away from Him.
Click to expand...
Well it can be beyond our paygrade to fathom a lot of things.

Just how can God be who never was created. Always existed. We do accept it though and just say it is that way because it is.

But what is it you're really saying? Are you inferring something without words....that is are you saying I cannot believe a being knowing God's love could turn away from him therefore God must have put it in them to do so?
 
ALAYMAN said:
I will attempt to give a brief answer to my conundrum. When I said that I had sympathies for the freewill argument, I truly do understand that the aspect of goodness entails choice. But it is beyond my paygrade to fathom how a human being that never experienced sin and only known the goodness of God could conceivably consider the very irrational “benefits” of the sinful choice. I know that isn’t detailed nor deep, but that truly is my roadblock. Not trying to be or sound Uber-spiritual here, but as somebody who has experienced the grace and joy of God’s mercy and beauty I can’t imagine having ever only known that love and beauty (and being created “good”) and resort to ANY tendency to move away from Him.
Click to expand...
This is what came to mind when I re-read your post. Gen 4:6 - And the LORDsaid unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
Unchecked Copy Box
Gen 4:7 - If thou doest well,shalt thou not be accepted?and if thou doest not well, sin lies at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
 
Leatherneck0311 said:
This is what came to mind when I re-read your post. Gen 4:6 - And the LORDsaid unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
Unchecked Copy Box
Gen 4:7 - If thou doest well,shalt thou not be accepted?and if thou doest not well, sin lies at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
Click to expand...
Can you be a little more specific as to how you’re connecting those verses to what I said?
 
Rockson said:
Well it can be beyond our paygrade to fathom a lot of things.

Just how can God be who never was created. Always existed. We do accept it though and just say it is that way because it is.

But what is it you're really saying? Are you inferring something without words....that is are you saying I cannot believe a being knowing God's love could turn away from him therefore God must have put it in them to do so?
Click to expand...

The eternal existence of God is logical and rational in my understanding of philosophical reality. A creature that is good turning from all that is good is what is irrational and mind boggling.

As far as your question about my possible inferences….Do you see a Calvinist behind every tree?😉😁. I’m certainly NOT making any claim like that about God. Matter of fact my certain default presupposition is that God isn’t capable of evil nor tempting anyone or anything to evil.
 
ALAYMAN said:
As far as your question about my possible inferences….Do you see a Calvinist behind every tree?😉😁.
Click to expand...
I wouldn't say so but I do like to know exactly what a person is saying and meaning. :)

 
ALAYMAN said:
Can you be a little more specific as to how you’re connecting those verses to what I said?
Click to expand...
I don’t believe the following verse(truth) is dependent on how we feel about how Satan or Eve would be exempt from falling into evil after being created perfect(satan) or good (Eve) and or that would change the truth that God told Cain.—>
Unchecked Copy Box

Gen 4:7 - If thou doest well,shalt thou not be accepted?and if thou doest not well, sin lies at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
 
Leatherneck0311 said:
I don’t believe the following verse(truth) is dependent on how we feel about how Satan or Eve would be exempt from falling into evil after being created perfect(satan) or good (Eve) and or that would change the truth that God told Cain.—>
Unchecked Copy Box

Gen 4:7 - If thou doest well,shalt thou not be accepted?and if thou doest not well, sin lies at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
Click to expand...

At the time that Genesis 4:7 occurred Cain was already a sinner who possessed the sin nature. So at that point he did not have the volitional will to “do good” in the sense that we are talking about. It is true that he was being told to make a choice between right and wrong, but his nature showed that sin and its consequences was real. In that sense Cain is no different than me or you. We are told to observe God in obedience and follow his commandments, but we will fully knowingly choose wrong instead of right all the time. We, and Cain, have never known an existence of moral perfection.
 
ALAYMAN said:
At the time that Genesis 4:7 occurred Cain was already a sinner who possessed the sin nature. So at that point he did not have the volitional will to “do good” in the sense that we are talking about. It is true that he was being told to make a choice between right and wrong, but his nature showed that sin and its consequences was real. In that sense Cain is no different than me or you. We are told to observe God in obedience and follow his commandments, but we will fully knowingly choose wrong instead of right all the time. We, and Cain, have never known an existence of moral perfection.
Click to expand...
Why then was Abel’s gift accepted and Cain’s gift rejected ? Abel was born with a sin nature and his gift pleaded God correct ?
 
"God allowed a dark work of Satan (the crucifixion of His Son) to purchase our redemption." quote from this morning's sermon.
 
Leatherneck0311 said:
Why then was Abel’s gift accepted and Cain’s gift rejected ? Abel was born with a sin nature and his gift pleaded God correct ?
Click to expand...
Because Abel gave in faith. Without faith it is impossible to please God. Why do you ask?
 
ALAYMAN said:
Because Abel gave in faith. Without faith it is impossible to please God. Why do you ask?
Click to expand...
I believe that they offered their gifts at the allotted time so they both knew what God required. Cain offered the work of his hands a bloodless sacrifice, and Abel offered a blood sacrifice. Cain’s offering broke a type of Jesus.
 
Last edited:
Leatherneck0311 said:
I believe that they offered their gifts at the alloyed time so they both knew what God required. Cain offered the work of his hands a bloodless sacrifice, and Abel offered a blood sacrifice. Cain’s offering broke a type of Jesus.
Click to expand...
I’m not sure what this means (probably due to typos)😊
 
Leatherneck0311 said:
Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins.
Click to expand...
I promise I’m not baiting you, but are you American (English is your 1st language)?

The reason I ask is because it’s hard to follow your rationale/thinking. You seem to make large jumps in logic and they seem incomplete or disconnected.

In this case, you seem to be saying that both Cain and Abel knew they needed a blood sacrifice (which is importing a speculative theological presupposition into the Genesis text). Regardless of that, my point about Cain and Abel was that they both had the sin nature so they fall outside the logic I am using about beings who are created “perfect”.
 
ALAYMAN said:
I promise I’m not baiting you, but are you American (English is your 1st language)?

The reason I ask is because it’s hard to follow your rationale/thinking. You seem to make large jumps in logic and they seem incomplete or disconnected.

In this case, you seem to be saying that both Cain and Abel knew they needed a blood sacrifice (which is importing a speculative theological presupposition into the Genesis text). Regardless of that, my point about Cain and Abel was that they both had the sin nature so they fall outside the logic I am using about beings who are created “perfect”.
Click to expand...
The point was exactly what I posted . Abel’s gift was accepted while Cain’s bloodless offering was rejected. Had Lucifer controlled his evil desires he would have not rebelled against God. It is obvious from scripture that both Satan and Adam made the choice to rebel against and disobey God.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top