An offshoot of the freewill/theodicy thread.

ALAYMAN

Well-known member
Doctor
Elect
Joined
Feb 2, 2012
Messages
9,675
Reaction score
3,237
Points
113
I thought this issue may be best broken out into its own thread.

For those that believe in the ultimate self-determination of the soul/will, what is your rationale behind why a regenerated/saved person will be unable to use that same ultimate self-determining will to choose once again to sin once we are glorified in heaven, just as Lucifer, Adam, and Eve did while in their "good" moral state(s)?
 
Five words..."We will BE LIKE HIM." Interesting question...but, I hope you're not holding a strange doctrinal position.
 
Five words..."We will BE LIKE HIM." Interesting question...but, I hope you're not holding a strange doctrinal position.

Not trying to trick anybody here, and not shooting for a strange doctrinal position, only trying for some consistent logic to be applied to our theological framework on the issue of "determinism". What do I mean by that? Well, at least partially, it seems to me that no matter where a person falls on the scale of God's intervention into the will of man, all of us who are "non-Arminian" (at least EVERY opinion I have ever heard expressed in my life on the matter of eternal security) are ok with the idea that God makes it so there's something about our wills that will be unable to sin once we are in heaven (a premise that I accept on Biblical grounds, not philosophical).

By the way, I like that answer of "We will be like Him" (K.I.S.S.). :)
 
Evil is amoral.
It is harm.
Good also is amoral:
Matthew 7:11
If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

Both depend on action, to exist:

Psalms 34:14
Depart from evil, and do good;
seek peace, and pursue it.

Romans 7:18-21
For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

God does evil:
2 Kings 21:12
Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Behold, I am bringing such evil upon Jerusalem and Judah, that whosoever heareth of it, both his ears shall tingle.
Exodus 32:14
And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

And Man knows evil from good.
Gen 3, duh!
 
Evil is amoral.
It is harm.
Good also is amoral:
Matthew 7:11
If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

Both depend on action, to exist:

Psalms 34:14
Depart from evil, and do good;
seek peace, and pursue it.

Romans 7:18-21
For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

God does evil:
2 Kings 21:12
Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Behold, I am bringing such evil upon Jerusalem and Judah, that whosoever heareth of it, both his ears shall tingle.
Exodus 32:14
And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

And Man knows evil from good.
Gen 3, duh!

amor·al (ˌ)ā-ˈmȯr-əl : having or showing no concern about whether behavior is morally right or wrong


uhhhhh, "amoral"?
 
Yes!
Amoral.
Evil can be right, as in capital punishment, no?
We are commanded not to be good to false teachers, no?
 
Yes!
Amoral.
Evil can be right, as in capital punishment, no?
We are commanded not to be good to false teachers, no?

I think we are using those terms in some sense of equivocation. Ultimate good, and ultimate evil are objectively real ontological truths, not merely subjective. For instance, in the case of capital punishment that you cited, Scripture warrants it (Rom 13), so in no objective sense is capital punishment evil, unless I am misunderstanding you.
 
Evil is harm.
Capital punishment harms the condemned man, no?
Just using the dictionary.
 
Evil is harm.
Capital punishment harms the condemned man, no?
Just using the dictionary.

Do you claim that God's righteous judgment on the lost is wrong?
 
No, just evil.
😉
So then, in the sense that you are using the word "harm" synonymously for evil I would say your definition (theologically and Biblically) are lacking. For instance, Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! is not merely talking about evil being "harm".
 
Last edited:
You are arguing with the dictionary now.
Carry on.
 
From Etymonline:
"Anything that causes injury, anything that harms or is likely to harm; a malady or disease; conduct contrary to standards of morals or righteousness," Old English yfel (see evil (adj.)).
 
From Etymonline:
"Anything that causes injury, anything that harms or is likely to harm; a malady or disease; conduct contrary to standards of morals or righteousness," Old English yfel (see evil (adj.)).
You've got some STRANGE ideology...but, many here do. Go figure. This place draws nuts like an outhouse draws flies! LOL
 
From Etymonline:
"Anything that causes injury, anything that harms or is likely to harm; a malady or disease; conduct contrary to standards of morals or righteousness," Old English yfel (see evil (adj.)).

Anything your dictionary can do mine can do better (red font) ;)

WEBSTER'S 1828

E'VIL
, adjective e'vl. [Heb. to be unjust or injurious, to defraud.]

1. Having bad qualities of a natural kind; mischievous; having qualities which tend to injury, or to produce mischief.

Some evil beast hath devoured him. Genesis 37:20.

2. Having bad qualities of a moral kind; wicked; corrupt; perverse; wrong; as evil thoughts; evil deeds; evil speaking; an evil generation.

3. Unfortunate; unhappy; producing sorrow, distress, injury or calamity; as evil tidings; evil arrows; evil days.

E'VIL, noun evil is natural or moral. Natural evil is any thing which produces pain, distress, loss or calamity, or which in any way disturbs the peace, impairs the happiness, or destroys the perfection of natural beings.

Moral evil is any deviation of a moral agent from the rules of conduct prescribed to him by God, or by legitimate human authority; or it is any violation of the plain principles of justice and rectitude.


There are also evils called civil, which affect injuriously the peace or prosperity of a city or state; and political evils, which injure a nation, in its public capacity.

All wickedness, all crimes, all violations of law and right are moral evils. Diseases are natural evils, but they often proceed from moral evils.

2. Misfortune; mischief; injury.

There shall no evil befall thee. Psalms 91:10.

A prudent man foreseeth the evil and hideth himself. Proverbs 22:3.

3. Depravity; corruption of heart, or disposition to commit wickedness; malignity.

The heart of the sons of men is full of evil Ecclesiastes 9:3.

4. Malady; as the king's evil or scrophula.

E'VIL, adverb [generally contracted to ill.]

1. Not well; not with justice or propriety; unsuitable.

Evil it beseems thee.

2. Not virtuously; not innocently.

3. Not happily; unfortunately.

It went evil with his house.

4. Injuriously; not kindly.

The Egyptians evil entreated us, and afflicted us.
 
1. Tend to injury....
Yup, thanks for the confirmation.
 
If God can do evil, and God is not immoral, the discussion should end with that. Shouldn't it?
 
1. Tend to injury....
Yup, thanks for the confirmation.

Ok, are you seriously insisting that EVERY semantic range of usage of the word "evil" in the Bible falls under the meaning of "Tend to injury" (as opposed to "Depravity; corruption of heart, or disposition to commit wickedness; malignity.")?
 
Back
Top