Catholic vs Calvinist (if you had to choose)

[Bruh]

Maybe, but I’m using a very well-known and reputable website that has roots going back fifty years for most of my responses. The ministry actually started as a result of Christian fundamentalists leaving attack flyers on the windshields of cars in the parking lot of a Catholic Church, and of course it was full of misinformation. Here’s more on their background: https://www.catholic.com/about

I was not raised Catholic, but I attended Catholic school after elementary. It was considered by my parents to be the lesser of two evils versus the public school. Back in those days, charter schools didn’t exist, and we didn’t have a Protestant affiliated school near our house, so it was either Catholic or public. Of course nowadays there are a plethora of school options, including virtual.

Like you, I was also taught misinformation, but from the pulpit of IFB and SBC churches. I think most of us on here can point to misinformation we were taught back in the 70s or 80s or whatever. Isn’t that part of the lifeblood of this forum, people jaded by experiences in the IFB world?

My agenda isn’t to convert anyone to Catholicism. I’m not Catholic myself, but the misinformation about Catholicism is astounding. We can’t just make statements like “I heard this…” and consider it official Catholic doctrine when it’s not.

So what do Catholics actually consider us? They officially consider Protestants “separated brethren.” That’s certainly not “condemned to hell” rhetoric. https://www.catholic.com/video/what-does-the-church-teach-about-salvation-for-protestants

My experience tells me that the IFB definitely teach extra stuff to be close to God but do teach a true gospel.

The difference is, the Catholics teach a false gospel.

That’s everything.

 

[DrHuk&Duck]

My experience tells me that the IFB definitely teach extra stuff to be close to God but do teach a true gospel.

The difference is, the Catholics teach a false gospel.

That’s everything.

I agree that many IFB churches teach “extra stuff” and they often manipulate Scriptures to solidify their points. I wouldn’t be willing to say that Catholics teach a “false gospel.” Remember that Protestant churches have around a relatively short period of time compared to Catholics.

 

[ALAYMAN]

I agree that many IFB churches teach “extra stuff” and they often manipulate Scriptures to solidify their points. I wouldn’t be willing to say that Catholics teach a “false gospel.” Remember that Protestant churches have around a relatively short period of time compared to Catholics.

Arianism, nestorianism, gnosticism... lots of heresies been around a long time. Being ancient isn't the mark of Truth or orthodoxy.

 

[voicecrying]

I agree that many IFB churches teach “extra stuff” and they often manipulate Scriptures to solidify their points. I wouldn’t be willing to say that Catholics teach a “false gospel.” Remember that Protestant churches have around a relatively short period of time compared to Catholics.

The Catholic gospel is false. It minimizes the work of Christ. Their gospel truly is not good news to men who cannot save themselves.

 

[DrHuk&Duck]

In Roman theology, may one's bad works--let's limit those to mortal sins for the sake of simplicity--result in the loss of justifying grace? (i.e. do bad Catholics forfeit heaven?)

Yes - from my understanding, if not confessed before death.

 

[DrHuk&Duck]

Arianism, nestorianism, gnosticism... lots of heresies been around a long time. Being ancient isn't the mark of Truth or orthodoxy.

That’s true, but my point is the Protestants are the descendants of the Catholics. Peter was the first pope.

 

[DrHuk&Duck]

The Catholic gospel is false. It minimizes the work of Christ. Their gospel truly is not good news to men who cannot save themselves.

I view it differently. Interestingly, my old-school childhood IFB pastor said on more than one occasion from the pulpit that he believed that there were some Catholics who were genuinely saved and would go to heaven. I never heard him say that about Muslims or Jews or Buddhists.

 

[Ransom]

Yes - from my understanding, if not confessed before death.

So in Roman Catholic theology, salvation is attained partly through works (e.g. the sacrament of baptism), maintained through works (e.g. sacraments such as confession and communion), and even after death, sanctification is completed through temporal punishment in purgatory.

In what meaningful sense do good works not get a person salvation?

 

[DrHuk&Duck]

So in Roman Catholic theology, salvation is attained partly through works (e.g. the sacrament of baptism), maintained through works (e.g. sacraments such as confession and communion), and even after death, sanctification is completed through temporal punishment in purgatory.

In what meaningful sense do good works not get a person salvation?

The Catholics have a little different view. There’s initial salvation and final salvation. Good works aren’t necessary for salvation (their view being very similar to Baptists), but for final salvation it is. Salvation can be lost in their view.

 

[voicecrying]

That’s true, but my point is the Protestants are the descendants of the Catholics. Peter was the first pope.

Leaving the question of whether Peter was really a pope or not aside, what evidence is there that Peter was a Roman Catholic?

 

[DrHuk&Duck]

Leaving the question of whether Peter was really a pope or not aside, what evidence is there that Peter was a Roman Catholic?

This is one of those areas where people take sides and either believe or not. Obviously if someone is anti-Catholic they’re going to interpret differently. The famous rock metaphor (Matthew 16:18) is a perfect example. Apostolic Succession is of course another, but I’m guessing you’d reject both. I’m familiar with the pro and con arguments of both.

 

[Ekklesian]

This is one of those areas where people take sides and either believe or not. Obviously if someone is anti-Catholic they’re going to interpret differently. The famous rock metaphor (Matthew 16:18) is a perfect example. Apostolic Succession is of course another, but I’m guessing you’d reject both. I’m familiar with the pro and con arguments of both.

It sounds to me like you've been toying with the idea of joining the Catholic Church for a while, and are wanting to use your hatred of Calvinism for the springboard.

I say jump right in. They won't baptize you right away. You have to be catechized first. If, after you learn the catechism, you're still so disposed, what's stopping you?

 

[voicecrying]

This is one of those areas where people take sides and either believe or not. Obviously if someone is anti-Catholic they’re going to interpret differently. The famous rock metaphor (Matthew 16:18) is a perfect example. Apostolic Succession is of course another, but I’m guessing you’d reject both. I’m familiar with the pro and con arguments of both.

The difference in interpretation usually comes down to those who hold scripture as the final authority and those who hold scripture as one of multiple authorities - not necessarily anti- or pro-Catholic.

 

[voicecrying]

I say jump right in. They won't baptize you right away. You have to be catechized first. If, after you learn the catechism, you're still so disposed, what's stopping you?

Actually, they do not require a baptism if the person has been baptized in another (trinitarian) church. The person does have to go thru RCIA, though, before being allowed to participate in communion.

 

[illinoisguy]

Dr. Huk, is this the gospel?

2068 The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments
are obligatory for Christians and that the justified man is still bound
to keep them; the Second Vatican Council confirms: “The bishops,
successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission
of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every
creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism
and the observance of the Commandments.”

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church, originally published in 1992. Maybe you will get to study this in your catechism class.

 

[Ransom]

The Catholics have a little different view. There’s initial salvation and final salvation. Good works aren’t necessary for salvation (their view being very similar to Baptists)

Is baptism a good work, or is it not?

Catholic theology affirms baptismal regeneration: "The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.... Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament. The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude" (CCC 1257). Its purpose is to purge the baptized of the effects of sin: "By Baptism all sins are forgiven, original sin and all personal sins, as well as all punishment for sin" (CCC 1263). Generally speaking, to die unbaptized is to die with the guilt of personal and original sin remaining.

The Baptist view is that baptism is a public testimony of identification with Christ in his death, burial and resurrection (which is why Baptists generally insist on full immersion) as well as the washing away of sin. Baptism is a symbol, a representation of a reality that has already taken place. Catholic theology conflates the symbol and the reality. They are not similar.

 

[biscuit1953]

Just as my neighbor who is a minister in the Christ of Christ believes I'm going to hell for not being baptized in his denomination by one of its ministers, I see no difference between the Roman Catholic Church and every other sect that teaches we must do certain works to obtain God's favor. Just as the physical act of walking an aisle and saying a prayer will not save anyone, so turning baptism into a sacrament like the Catholics and Church of Christ do will not save anyone on judgment day. We should love people caught up in such denominations enough to tell them the truth intead of defending a false church with a false way of salvation. As a footnote, I knew a man who was baptized in order to get his sins washed away and he came back up the size of a baseball.

 

[DrHuk&Duck]

For the sake of time, I’m just going to attempt to respond in one post.

@Ekklesian - I haven’t ruled out converting to Catholicism down the road. A friend of mine made the jump from IFB about ten years ago and is now a deacon in his local Catholic church. The reason I’m not Catholic is mainly due to my Protestant family background. That doesn’t mean I agree and endorse everything Catholic. After all, I’ve been in the SBC and IFB churches my entire life. My only exposure to Catholicism is via school.

@illinoisguy - Yes, I’d think it’s obligatory to keep the Ten Commandments regardless of Catholic or Protestant.

@Ransom - The baptism thing is confusing to me. I’ve always been taught that it’s a public expression of faith, and baptism alone will not save a person. The Catholic Church seems to indicate baptism is not a good work, but when it comes to salvation, it seems a slippery slope as to whether it’s required or not. I’ve read a person not baptized but desiring baptism is acceptable, as is martyrdom.

@Tarheel Baptist - I clearly stated I don’t have “Th.D” after my name.

@biscuit1953 - You are correct. I’m aware of Protestant denominations that have a myriad of different views on salvation that really aren’t ever discussed on this forum. I believe Methodists and Anglicans (among others), believe in losing salvation.

 

[biscuit1953]

For the sake of time, I’m just going to attempt to respond in one post.

@Ekklesian - I haven’t ruled out converting to Catholicism down the road. A friend of mine made the jump from IFB about ten years ago and is now a deacon in his local Catholic church. The reason I’m not Catholic is mainly due to my Protestant family background. That doesn’t mean I agree and endorse everything Catholic. After all, I’ve been in the SBC and IFB churches my entire life. My only exposure to Catholicism is via school.

@illinoisguy - Yes, I’d think it’s obligatory to keep the Ten Commandments regardless of Catholic or Protestant.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. We keep the Ten Commandments as Christians because we love the Lord, not in order to obtain salvation. You add any works or rituals to the gospel you are accursed and that includes the ritual of baptism.
Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Gal 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

@Ransom - The baptism thing is confusing to me. I’ve always been taught that it’s a public expression of faith, and baptism alone will not save a person. The Catholic Church seems to indicate baptism is not a good work, but when it comes to salvation, it seems a slippery slope as to whether it’s required or not. I’ve read a person not baptized but desiring baptism is acceptable, as is martyrdom.

@Tarheel Baptist - I clearly stated I don’t have “Th.D” after my name.

@biscuit1953 - You are correct. I’m aware of Protestant denominations that have a myriad of different views on salvation that really aren’t ever discussed on this forum. I believe Methodists and Anglicans (among others), believe in losing salvation.

 

[voicecrying]

For the sake of time, I’m just going to attempt to respond in one post.

@illinoisguy - Yes, I’d think it’s obligatory to keep the Ten Commandments regardless of Catholic or Protestant.

Why was the law given? What is its purpose?