The bar will serve both alcoholic and non-alcoholic drinks... I wonder if one kind of drink will outsell the other and by how much.
"Why should the devil have all the good drinks?"
Record low number of Americans now drink alcohol.
- Thread starter Tarheel Baptist
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"Why should the devil have all the good drinks?"
Ditto
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It's a trend that comes and goes. In the early 2000s, spirits were out and beer was all the rage. Later, along came the "wine moms." And so forth.
People have been drinking alcohol for centuries. One abstemious generation isn't going to put an end to that, probably not even in the short term. Even Prohibition didn't stop people from drinking.
Back when I was drinking, my drink of choice was craft brews. I must admit I drank quite a bit. So much so, my wife expressed concerns about how much beer I was drinking. I listened to her... I began drinking shots with my beer and drastically cut back on my beer consumption!
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I would just like to say that many people are opposed to consuming alcoholic beverages because of the homes that have been torn apart by it and the influence it may have on others. My aunt was killed by a drunken husband and I have other relatives that couldn’t stay away from the bottle. I used to preach at a downtown rescue mission where it was common to find alcoholics that lost everything and wound up on the streets. These things aren’t just anecdotal but very real.
The apostle Paul includes wine as one of the doubtful things (Rom 14:1) that can cause a brother to stumble. He says there is nothing wrong in itself with drinking wine but if it causes a weaker Christian to stumble he would abstain for that reason. I would say that is at least one biblical reason to abstain from it. Many verses give warnings about the pitfalls of wine and strong drink but I hardly ever hear anyone discussing those verses anymore. There can be a balance without being extreme from either side. There are examples of Christian leaders who abstained for “biblical reasons.”
Billy Graham was asked the question, “Do you think a little social drinking to promote good fellowship does any harm? He said, “Of course it does. In every city I visit someone asks me to pray for a husband or wife or son who started as a social drinker and now has become an alcoholic.”
Stewart Hamblen struggled with alcoholism for many years and because of his drinking landed in jail numerous times for brawling and other destructive behavior. He was saved after attending a Billy Graham Crusade in Los Angeles in 1949 and immediately gave up drinking. He had one of the most popular radio programs on the West Coast but was fired after he refused to continue doing beer commercials. One evening Hamblen was visiting John Wayne. In a discussion about how people solve their problems, Hamblen said something like: ‘It’s no secret what God can do in a man’s life.’ Later, Wayne said: ‘Stuart you ought to write a song about ‘it is no secret what God can do’. That is a beautiful thought.’ That is where the song “It is No Secret” was born.
Charles Spurgeon said, “I neither said nor implied that it was sinful to drink wine; nay I said that in and by itself, this might be done without blame. But I remarked if I knew that another would be led to take it by my example and this would lead them on to further drinking, and even intoxication, then I would not touch it.” In the last few years of Spurgeon’s life as he began to deal with the ravages of alcohol abuse, he became a total abstainer.
John MacArthur wrote an article about the ravages of alcoholism and drug abuse.
www.gty.org
Just as Christians have the liberty to indulge in this practice without being condemned, even so there are many Christians and even non-Christians alike (e.g. Donald Trump) who abstain from alcohol for different reasons and they likewise should not be condemned and branded as a legalist for their own personal convictions.
The apostle Paul includes wine as one of the doubtful things (Rom 14:1) that can cause a brother to stumble. He says there is nothing wrong in itself with drinking wine but if it causes a weaker Christian to stumble he would abstain for that reason. I would say that is at least one biblical reason to abstain from it. Many verses give warnings about the pitfalls of wine and strong drink but I hardly ever hear anyone discussing those verses anymore. There can be a balance without being extreme from either side. There are examples of Christian leaders who abstained for “biblical reasons.”
Billy Graham was asked the question, “Do you think a little social drinking to promote good fellowship does any harm? He said, “Of course it does. In every city I visit someone asks me to pray for a husband or wife or son who started as a social drinker and now has become an alcoholic.”
Stewart Hamblen struggled with alcoholism for many years and because of his drinking landed in jail numerous times for brawling and other destructive behavior. He was saved after attending a Billy Graham Crusade in Los Angeles in 1949 and immediately gave up drinking. He had one of the most popular radio programs on the West Coast but was fired after he refused to continue doing beer commercials. One evening Hamblen was visiting John Wayne. In a discussion about how people solve their problems, Hamblen said something like: ‘It’s no secret what God can do in a man’s life.’ Later, Wayne said: ‘Stuart you ought to write a song about ‘it is no secret what God can do’. That is a beautiful thought.’ That is where the song “It is No Secret” was born.
Charles Spurgeon said, “I neither said nor implied that it was sinful to drink wine; nay I said that in and by itself, this might be done without blame. But I remarked if I knew that another would be led to take it by my example and this would lead them on to further drinking, and even intoxication, then I would not touch it.” In the last few years of Spurgeon’s life as he began to deal with the ravages of alcohol abuse, he became a total abstainer.
John MacArthur wrote an article about the ravages of alcoholism and drug abuse.
Beer, Bohemianism, and True Christian Liberty
If everything you know about Christian living came from blogs and websites in the young-and-restless district of the Reformed community, you might...
Just as Christians have the liberty to indulge in this practice without being condemned, even so there are many Christians and even non-Christians alike (e.g. Donald Trump) who abstain from alcohol for different reasons and they likewise should not be condemned and branded as a legalist for their own personal convictions.
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Depends on whether they're presenting their "personal convictions" as laws for everyone else or not.
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Do you believe Stewart Hamblen was a legalist because he refused to continue to advertise beer cmmercials after his conversion? He didn't try to force anyone to quit drinking. Is a Christian a legalist because he doesn't want liquor stores in his community and votes to not allow them? Some lines aren't necessarily black and white. Crime is another reason people don't want businesses like that in their neighborhood.
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Well, since I'm sure you read what I actually wrote and aren't just using it as a springboard to keep pontificating, you just answered your own question.
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Abstaining from the appearance of evil is exactly why Billy Graham, Charles Spurgeon and others take personal stands the way they do. You may not think that is a good reason but many Christians do. Stewart Hamblen took the stand he did, not because he was trying to force anyone to not buy beer but because he believed he would be a bad influence on others that were in his situation for so many years.
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I sampled enough when I was young, my opinion hasn't changed. Saying "beer is an acquired taste" is being charitable, to say the least. It's just not necessary, any more than playing the lottery. Too much risk and too much baggage surrounding it. "Be not deceived" should be, pardon the pun, taken very soberly
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Then they misappropriated 1 Thess. 5:22 to support a moral precept that Paul didn't intend. And adding commands to the Bible is legalism by definition.
That's a stupid rule anyway. Sure, there's a certain wisdom in being transparent. But who decides what is evil? If I take a righteous, biblical stand concerning homosexuality or abortion, the world will call me some sort of phobe or ist--in other words, to them, I appear evil. Is that what I'm supposed to avoid?
On the other hand, occasional or moderate use of alcohol does not "appear evil" to me. I wasn't raised with some of the family or personal baggage that some of you clearly have, and so your first- or secondhand experiences with booze aren't true to my own experience. Without invalidating your own experiences, what appears evil to you does not appear evil to me; the "appearance of evil" is not communicable.
"Abstain from every appearance of evil" is a peculiarity of the KJV, which is probably a reason why it is misunderstood. We are actually being told to keep away from that which is morally evil; and, specifically, Paul gives this instruction in the context of testing prophecies to see if they truly come from God (vv. 19-21).
"Many Christians" are not my standard. That's just baptized peer pressure. I'll go with what the Bible says.
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1 Timothy 3:2-8
2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
8 Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;
Verse 3 uses a different phrase than verse 8. Bishops - not given to wine; deacons - not given to *much* wine.
Wine there doesn't make sense to simply mean grape juice as that would mean the bishops could not fully participate in the Lord's Supper.
The simple conclusion is that wine is acceptable but don't be a drunkard.
2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
8 Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;
Verse 3 uses a different phrase than verse 8. Bishops - not given to wine; deacons - not given to *much* wine.
Wine there doesn't make sense to simply mean grape juice as that would mean the bishops could not fully participate in the Lord's Supper.
The simple conclusion is that wine is acceptable but don't be a drunkard.
I have found if I take just a little bit, say a 5oz serving, I become given over to it and want to continue consuming to unacceptable levels. Once I admitted such to myself (as well as to the Lord) I completely lost all desire for it.
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It's the same in Greek. I would take the variety of wording as just that, not necessarily a distinction in how bishops and deacons may approach wine.
Paul uses the same phrase for overseers in both 1 Tim. 3:3 and Titus 1:7, literally meaning something like someone who is always near to his wine. For deacons in 1 Tim. 3:8, he says they must not be addicted to much wine.
Notice that in all three cases, the very next thing he says is that the elder or deacon must not be violent. Obviously there's a close relationship between drunkenness and uncontrolled anger or violence. It seems that in Ephesus and Crete, there was a real problem in the society with wine and drunkenness, and it also found its way into the church. We can perhaps infer that Timothy was abstaining from wine for their sakes (1 Tim. 5:23), and Paul assured him it was OK to take a little to settle his stomach.
And of older women, Paul also says they must not be enslaved to much wine (Titus 2:4). The prohibitions against immoderate drinking are not just for those in authority; it's wrong for them because it's wrong for everybody.
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I have conceded that it is not a sin to drink wine. I really wanted to point out that drinking alcoholic beverages can be a stumbling block for many Christians. No one on this forum is being forced to quit enjoying his liberty whether in a bar or in the privacy of his own home. I go on the record as agreeing with John MacArthur.
“It is puerile and irresponsible for any pastor to encourage the recreational use of intoxicants—especially in church-sponsored activities. The ravages of alcoholism and drug abuse in our culture are too well known, and no symbol of sin’s bondage is more seductive or more oppressive than booze. I have ministered to hundreds of people over the years who have been delivered from alcohol addiction. Many of them wage a daily battle with fleshly desires made a thousand times more potent because of that addiction. The last thing I would ever want to do is be the cause of stumbling for one of them.” John MacArthur
“It is puerile and irresponsible for any pastor to encourage the recreational use of intoxicants—especially in church-sponsored activities. The ravages of alcoholism and drug abuse in our culture are too well known, and no symbol of sin’s bondage is more seductive or more oppressive than booze. I have ministered to hundreds of people over the years who have been delivered from alcohol addiction. Many of them wage a daily battle with fleshly desires made a thousand times more potent because of that addiction. The last thing I would ever want to do is be the cause of stumbling for one of them.” John MacArthur
Is it? I admit I'm not a Greek scholar, but when I look at e-Sword in both the Greek NT TR+ & Green NT WH+, they have different wording. Is e-Sword not reliable for the Greek?
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Sorry, I could have been clearer. I meant that in Greek as in English, 1 Tim. 3 vv. 3 and 8 use different phrases meaning basically the same thing. The situation is the same, not the wording.
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"Just as Christians have the liberty to indulge in this practice without being condemned, even so there are many Christians and even non-Christians alike (e.g. Donald Trump) who abstain from alcohol for different reasons and they likewise should not be condemned and branded as a legalist for their own personal convictions."
This is very true. Like The President, I have never once had a drink of liquor and it has nothing to do with a bible verse or being "holier-than-thou".
This is very true. Like The President, I have never once had a drink of liquor and it has nothing to do with a bible verse or being "holier-than-thou".
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That's the best point you've ever made on the forum.