Daniel's 70th Week and President Trump's Peace Plan

[Ransom]

idea that God is not through with the nation of Israel

I said nothing about that.

denying the miraculous regathering

I deny only that it's miraculous. It's providential--part of God's sovereign decree.

Which is not the issue at hand, just one of the many prefab talking points you resurrect every time you are challenge on anything. I'm amazed you didn't bring up MacArthur and Sproul yet again. And Baucham, too--now that he's dead, I guess he can be recruited to your cause as well without putting up much resistance.

the idea you can poof all these things away in your own mind is

... nothing but yet another straw man of your own.

Your arguments are, in a word, irrelevant.

 

[Ransom]

Today on "Pogo-sticking Through Prophecy," we bounce back and forth in the Bible from proof-text to proof-text, not bothering with such silly things as hermeneutics, context, or whether these verses we've shuffled up and dealt out are actually meant to be connected.

Daniel 9:27

boing

Eze 13:16

boing

1 Thess 5:3

boing

Acts 2:23

boing

Rev 1:7

boing

Zech 12:10

I don’t believe Donald Trump is necessarily the Antichrist

... but hey, now that's out there...

 

[illinoisguy]

Ezekiel 13:16 is clearly, in its context, a warning to people then alive in Judah, to not believe the false prophets who promised peace in the face of the military threat of Babylon who conquered and destroyed Jerusalem in 586 BC. I don't see what this has to do with Trump's current peace plan for Gaza, which has not yet even been finalized between Israel and Hamas.

If every time there is some kind of proposal for peace in Israel, does that start a countdown to the Rapture?

When Israel's 1948 war of independence ended in a truce, did that start a countdown to the Rapture?

When Eisenhower stopped the attack by Israel, Britain and France against Egypt in 1956, did that start a countdown to the Rapture?

When the 6-Day war ended in a truce in 1967, did that start a countdown to the Rapture?

When the Yom Kipper war ended in a truce in 1973, did that start a countdown to the Rapture?

When Israel and Egypt signed a peace treaty in 1979, did that start a countdown to the Rapture? (At the time, prophecy experts predicted that this treaty would not last, because any effort to make peace in the Middle East was going against prophecy. After 46 years, this treaty is still in effect).

When Israel and Jordan signed a peace treaty in 1994, did that start a countdown to the Rapture? How come we are all still here, after all these peace proposals? Did the Rapture happen and we missed it?

 

[biscuit1953]

Ezekiel 13:16 is clearly, in its context, a warning to people then alive in Judah, to not believe the false prophets who promised peace in the face of the military threat of Babylon who conquered and destroyed Jerusalem in 586 BC. I don't see what this has to do with Trump's current peace plan for Gaza, which has not yet even been finalized between Israel and Hamas.

If every time there is some kind of proposal for peace in Israel, does that start a countdown to the Rapture?

When Israel's 1948 war of independence ended in a truce, did that start a countdown to the Rapture?

When Eisenhower stopped the attack by Israel, Britain and France against Egypt in 1956, did that start a countdown to the Rapture?

When the 6-Day war ended in a truce in 1967, did that start a countdown to the Rapture?

When the Yom Kipper war ended in a truce in 1973, did that start a countdown to the Rapture?

When Israel and Egypt signed a peace treaty in 1979, did that start a countdown to the Rapture? (At the time, prophecy experts predicted that this treaty would not last, because any effort to make peace in the Middle East was going against prophecy. After 46 years, this treaty is still in effect).

When Israel and Jordan signed a peace treaty in 1994, did that start a countdown to the Rapture? How come we are all still here, after all these peace proposals? Did the Rapture happen and we missed it?

The main event to the overall prophecies concerning the end times was the regathering of the Jews to their homeland and the establishment of Israel as a sovereign nation once again in 1948. There are events Jesus talked about in Matthew 24 that are clearly future. Jesus declared the abomination of desolation to be a future event not a past event that took place in 165 B.C. Jesus said the “gospel of the kingdom” would be preached to all the world just before His Second Coming. We know that has not yet been accomplished since Jesus commanded us to go into all nations to preach the gospel and that is why we have missionaries to those tribes and nations that have never heard the gospel. The “great tribulation such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be” (Matt 24:21) certainly did not take place in 70 A.D. I’m sorry, but these things cannot be reconciled by trying to pinhole everything to past events.

None of these events you mentioned have anything to do with the countdown to Daniel’s 70th week. It is the signing of the peace treaty that Daniel prophesied of in Daniel 9:27 that starts the actual countdown that can’t be stopped, but our generation has seen for the first time all the things put into place for the fulfilling of the ancient prophesies concerning the nation of Israel and these end time events. I know we won’t agree on everything but it is good both sides of understanding these things are put out there.

 

[Ransom]

None of these events you mentioned have anything to do with the countdown to Daniel’s 70th week.

Literally no event in modern history has anything to do with a countdown that finished 2000 years ago.

 

[Ekklesian]

the miraculous regathering of the Jews

Is what the Day of Pentecost was all about.

All the Jewish stuff has been taken care of...​

 

[biscuit1953]

Is what the Day of Pentecost was all about.

All the Jewish stuff has been taken care of...​

They did not become a sovereign nation until almost 2000 years after Pentecost. The "Wandering Jew" had no place to rest his foot until May 14, 1948.

 

[Ekklesian]

They did not become a sovereign nation until almost 2000 years after Pentecost. The "Wandering Jew" had no place to rest his foot until May 14, 1948.

Christ isn't their Rest?

 

[biscuit1953]

Christ isn't their Rest?

The idea that only radical Christians would dare distinguish between the Church and Israel is absurd. The Puritans who mostly followed Calvin, broke away from his teaching on that subject emphasizing the plain sense of the Bible and therefore distinguished between promises made to Jewish Israel and those made to the new Gentile Israel. Thomas Draxe (d. 1618) was a disciple of the Puritan theologian William Perkins. He used Romans 11 and biblical prophecies to argue that Jesus would not come again until “the dispersed Jews generally converted to Christianity,” but that in the meantime they “would be temporally restored into their own country, [would] rebuild Jerusalem, and have a most reformed, and flourishing, church and commonwealth.”

Increase Mather wrote in his The Mystery of Israel’s Salvation (1669) that the future conversion of “the Jewish nation” was “a truth of late [that] hath gained ground much throughout the world.” This widespread acceptance was a sign that the times of the end were near, a time when “the Israelites shall again possess . . . the Land promised unto their Father Abraham.”

The Reformed Tradition on Israel Is Diverse

Can you be a Calvinist and see a future for Jewish Israel and its land? History’s answer: Yes.

www.thegospelcoalition.org

Charles Spurgeon wrote concerning the the book of Zechariah in The Spurgeon Study Bible:

“This vision and prophecy graciously reveal the future history of Jerusalem. We may spiritualize it and say Jerusalem signifies the church, but we should not forget the literal meaning of the words. The Jewish people and their royal city will remain the center of the manifestation of divine glory. The nations of the earth will be joined to the Lord, a suburban population to the chosen city. Jerusalem will be rebuilt in more than her former splendor; the Jews will be restored to their own land; and Messiah will reign as a prince of the house of David.”

I had better not mention R.C. Sproul who agreed with John MacArthur that God is not through with ethnic Israel because some people might get upset that one of their heroes of the faith has a different understanding than they do. I’m tired of some implying that anyone who doesn’t tow the line in everything Calvin wrote are off their rockers. No one on this forum including myself is 100% right on eschatology. Some are just arrogant enough to believe that though.

 

[Ransom]

The idea that only radical Christians would dare distinguish between the Church and Israel is absurd.... He used Romans 11

You mean that chapter where Paul teaches that Israel and the Church are the same tree?

 

[ALAYMAN]

False premises. The radical church-Israel distinction, which is the defining doctrine of Dispensationalism, is untenable. Their insistence that the church age is a parenthesis in the prophetic plan is similarly untenable, when you read (even superficially) the way the Old Testament is applied in the New. There's no parenthesis; the prophets find their ultimate fulfillment in Christ and his people, and if the Jews had read their own scriptures, they would have known including the Gentiles in redemption was God's plan from the start.

But the reason Dispensationalists must posit an indeterminate gap of time between Daniel's 69th and 70th weeks is specifically to prop up those assumptions. Take away the Dispensational presuppositions, and the gap goes poof.

I definitely don't yet understand the varying eschatological hermeneutical apparatus well enough to contend with your claims, so I won't waste your time. But your dogmatism, saying Dispensationalism categorically isn't a possibility strikes me as a little over-reaching, given the preponderance of Biblically intelligent Orthodox Christians from different theological backgrounds who hold to such an interpretive scheme.

 

[illinoisguy]

None of these events you mentioned have anything to do with the countdown to Daniel’s 70th week.

You say none of these events, even when peace treaties were signed, were the right kind of events to start the countdown, but if Trump's peace proposal is signed, that will start the countdown. Please explain your rationale for asserting this. Show your work.

Admittedly, for non-dispies like myself, it's a moot point, since Daniel's 70th week already happened 2000 years ago, within 490 years of the command to restore and build Jerusalem, including the wall of Nehemiah (Daniel 9:25). Non-dispies are allowed to believe that Daniel's prophecy was fulfilled within the predicted timeline, but I guess dispies are not allowed to accept that.

 

[biscuit1953]

You say none of these events, even when peace treaties were signed, were the right kind of events to start the countdown, but if Trump's peace proposal is signed, that will start the countdown. Please explain your rationale for asserting this. Show your work.

Admittedly, for non-dispies like myself, it's a moot point, since Daniel's 70th week already happened 2000 years ago, within 490 years of the command to restore and build Jerusalem, including the wall of Nehemiah (Daniel 9:25). Non-dispies are allowed to believe that Daniel's prophecy was fulfilled within the predicted timeline, but I guess dispies are not allowed to accept that.

I'm not saying Trump is the Antichrist. Just as the video stated it may or may not be the treaty Daniel was talking about. Regardless I believe world events are staged for the return of the Lord. I don't set dates. I also reserve the right to be wrong in details of prophecy.

 

[DrHuk&Duck]

I also reserve the right to be wrong in details of prophecy.

Trust me, none of these guys hanging around this forum have doctoral degrees in theology (or probably anything else). They don’t know any more than you do.

 

[Ekklesian]

and Messiah will reign as a prince of the house of David.”

Is Jesus the King of kings, or not?

If yes, then He reigns.

If no, then Messiah has not yet come. You are yet in your sins.

 

[biscuit1953]

Is Jesus the King of kings, or not?

If yes, then He reigns.

If no, then Messiah has not yet come. You are yet in your sins.

Rom 16:20 The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet.

Paul tells us that Satan being crushed under our feet is future. God is sovereign but Satan is currently the god of this world who blinds the eyes of unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God (2 Cor 4:4).

It isn’t until the 7th trumpet blows in Revelation that the kingdoms of the world will become the kingdom of our Lord and his Christ, “and he shall reign for ever and ever” (Rev 11:15).

Currently Satan is the god of this world who opposes God. But some day in the future Satan will be bound and Christ will reign in righteousness with a rod of iron for 1000 years and there will be peace throughout this world (Rev 20: 1-6).

 

[Ransom]

I'm not saying Trump is the Antichrist. Just as the video stated it may or may not be the treaty Daniel was talking about.

That's the nice thing about being a "Bible prophecy expert." They don't have to be right--just "may or may not be." Regurgitate the same handful of proof-texts every time someone threatens to upend the instability of the Middle East with a peace plan.

Right or wrong, it sold a lot of prophecy books. Or, these days, I guess it earns you a lot of clicks. Profitable racket.

 

[biscuit1953]

That's the nice thing about being a "Bible prophecy expert." They don't have to be right--just "may or may not be." Regurgitate the same handful of proof-texts every time someone threatens to upend the instability of the Middle East with a peace plan.

Right or wrong, it sold a lot of prophecy books. Or, these days, I guess it earns you a lot of clicks. Profitable racket.

“The radical church-Israel distinction, which is the defining doctrine of Dispensationalism, is untenable.”

I suppose if you worship a man whether it be Calvin or anyone else, you can become unhinged if someone dares disagree with your personal views. I really don’t understand your condemning everyone who disagrees with your interpretation.

 

[illinoisguy]

Trust me, none of these guys hanging around this forum have doctoral degrees in theology.

I hold earned Master of Theology and Doctor of Philosophy in Religion degrees, and my master's thesis and doctoral dissertation have been posted on the Internet and translated into foreign languages.

It isn’t until the 7th trumpet blows in Revelation that the kingdoms of the world will become the kingdom of our Lord and his Christ. . . . Currently Satan is the god of this world

This is typical dispensational dogma, and it is unscriptural. Christ's reign over all things (including the earth) is present, not future:

"And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and earth." - Matthew 28:18

"Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: And hath put all things under his feet" - Ephesians 1:20-22.

"Jesus Christ, who is . . . the prince of the kings of the earth. . . . And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father: to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen." -Revelation 1:5-6

Dispensationalism depicts Christ as a loser who failed to bring in the Kingdom at His first advent, but the New Testament describes Him as a winner: " . . . by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God: angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him." - 1 Peter 3:21-22.

 

[biscuit1953]

I hold earned Master of Theology and Doctor of Philosophy in Religion degrees, and my master's thesis and doctoral dissertation have been posted on the Internet and translated into foreign languages.


This is typical dispensational dogma, and it is unscriptural. Christ's reign over all things (including the earth) is present, not future:

"And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and earth." - Matthew 28:18

"Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: And hath put all things under his feet" - Ephesians 1:20-22.

"Jesus Christ, who is . . . the prince of the kings of the earth. . . . And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father: to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen." -Revelation 1:5-6

Dispensationalism depicts Christ as a loser who failed to bring in the Kingdom at His first advent, but the New Testament describes Him as a winner: " . . . by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God: angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him." - 1 Peter 3:21-22.

“Dispensational dogma” is that God is sovereign but allows Satan to be in charge of world governments until Jesus Christ comes back to set up His own kingdom in righteousness and then “The kingdoms of the world will become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever.” The Book of Revelation is a book of future events. Many Reformed and non-Reformed scholars alike believe there is a distinction between the Church and Israel. That doesn’t make them “radical” or their position “untenable.”

Footnote: Your can have every kind of degree in the world and still be wrong.