Daniel's 70th Week and President Trump's Peace Plan

[illinoisguy]

Zechariah 13:8-9 is commonly cited by those who believe that 2/3 of all Jews must die in a future Great Tribulation period. Liberal Protestants, Roman Catholics, Jews and Muslims are aware that evangelical Christians believe such a thing, and they think we are nuts for teaching this. I think it's nuts, too - I don't believe a single Jew has to die in order for Christ to return.

Zechariah 13:8-9 cannot refer to a judgment or slaughter of the Jews at a time future to us, and here's why - in Luke 21:22, Christ stated concerning the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in 70 AD that "These be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled." Zechariah's prophecy would come under the classification of "all things which are written" concerning God's vengeance on the Jews, so if we are looking for a literal fulfillment, with mathematical precision, of that predicted slaughter of the Jews, it would have to be found no later than 70 AD.

Could Christ, when He predicted the "days of vengeance," have been referring to a future Great Tribulation? No - it is generally accepted, even by dispensationalists, that Luke 21:20-24 refers to the destruction of Jerusalem by Titus in 70 AD (see Scofield Reference Bible, 1917 edition, p. 1106).

In Matthew 23:35-36 Christ warned the generation of Jews then living that all the predicted judgments of God against them would be fulfilled in their lifetime: "That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation."

Once the judgments predicted against the Jews were fulfilled in 70 AD, there were no more divinely predicted judgments remaining against them to be fulfilled. This rules out a future fulfillment of Zechariah 13:8.

By the same scriptural reasoning, Jeremiah 30:7, a prediction of "the time of Jacob's trouble," cannot refer to any event in our future. Jeremiah was talking about the 70-year Babylonian captivity of the Jews during the 6th Century BC - Jacob was saved out of it, returning from captivity beginning in 538 BC.

Old Testament verses like these are misused and yanked out of their context, by prophecy teachers who say that the main purpose of the Great Tribulation is for God to pound on the Jews. (Like for instance, Jack Van Impe's book "Israel's Final Holocaust)." I don't believe that stuff, and if that be heresy, make the most of it.

 

[biscuit1953]

"Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, "NOR THE DESIRE OF WOMEN"..........................



That's not Trump

English Standard Version
He shall pay no attention to the gods of his fathers, or to the one beloved by women. He shall not pay attention to any other god, for he shall magnify himself above all.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
He will not show regard for the gods of his fathers, the god longed for by women, or for any other god, because he will magnify himself above all.

NET Bible
He will not respect the gods of his fathers--not even the god loved by women. He will not respect any god; he will elevate himself above them all.

The phrase “the desire of women” is in itself ambiguous, and may either mean what they desire, that is, what is agreeable to them, or what they commonly seek, and for which they would plead. Albert Barnes

Various translations seem ambiguous in translating Daniel 11:37. It may not have anything to do with him being a homosexual but that he has no regard for his gods or the god loved by women because he will exalt himself above all. I think a world leader signing a seven year peace treaty with many nations in regards to Israel would most likely be what I would look for. I don’t personally believe Donald Trump will be the Antichrist but he has a dominant personality and it is amazing the peace deals he has rapidly brought about in just the first six months of his second term.

Another possibility is the Rapture may not take place immediately after a peace treaty is confirmed because the first 3 ½ years will be relatively peaceful it seems and the tribulation judgments on earth has to do with the time of Jacob’s trouble (Jer 30:7). The tribulation will be by God on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ (2 Thess 1:6-9).

 

[Ransom]

Cries of warning of terrible danger posed by Middle East peace are nothing new

Nope.

Historicist dispensationalism, first, has a track record that simply cannot inspire confidence as a basis for political analysis. Historian Dwight Wilson has expertly summarized a dismal tale:

The current crisis was always identified as a sign of the end, whether it was the Russo-Japanese War, the First World War, the Second World War, the Palestine War, the Suez Crisis, the June War, or the Yom Kippur War. The revival of the Roman Empire has been identified variously as Mussolini's empire, the League of Nations, the United Nations, the European Defense Community, the Common Market, and NATO. Speculation on the Antichrist has included Napoleon, Mussolini, Hitler, and Henry Kissinger. The northern confederation was supposedly formed by the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk, the Rapallo Treaty, the Nazi-Soviet Pact, and then the Soviet Bloc. The "kings of the east" have been variously the Turks, the lost tribes of Israel, Japan, India, and China. The supposed restoration of Israel has confused the problem of whether the Jews are to be restored before or after the coming of the Messiah. The restoration of the latter rain has been pinpointed to have begun in 1897, 1917, and 1948. The end of the "times of the Gentiles" has been placed in 1895, 1917, 1948, and 1967. "Gog" has been an impending threat since the Crimean War, both under the Czars and the Communists.​

This dismal record has inspired the witticism known as "Murphy's Armageddon Observation: Those who don't learn from the past are condemned to write end-times books. Corollary: God doesn't read prophecy books." The sad fact remains that an awful lot of evangelicals still do.

--Mark A. Noll, The Scandal of the Evangelical Mind (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1994), 173-74.​

 

[ALAYMAN]

Ransom and Illinoisguy, do you believe Jesus is coming to earth again?

 

[Ransom]

Ransom and Illinoisguy, do you believe Jesus is coming to earth again?

Well, of course. What have I said that suggests otherwise? This seems like a case of drawing an extreme conclusion from a dispute over details.

Dispensationalism is like the boy who cried wolf, except it's more like he cries "Antichrist!" How many failed predictions does it take to question whether the whole system is defective?

As a (dispy) friend of mine once pointed out--rightly--the wolf does come. Which misses the point: it's not that the wolf comes eventually and vindicates the wolf-crier. Rather, it's that the wolf-crier's constant false alarms destroyed the people's trust in him, even if he was (finally) telling the truth.

That friend became an atheist several years ago, and I do have to wonder sometimes whether one of the causes was the failure of her own system to tell the truth.

 

[ALAYMAN]

Well, of course. What have I said that suggests otherwise? This seems like a case of drawing an extreme conclusion from a dispute over details.

Dispensationalism is like the boy who cried wolf, except it's more like he cries "Antichrist!" How many failed predictions does it take to question whether the whole system is defective?

As a (dispy) friend of mine once pointed out--rightly--the wolf does come. Which misses the point: it's not that the wolf comes eventually and vindicates the wolf-crier. Rather, it's that the wolf-crier's constant false alarms destroyed the people's trust in him, even if he was (finally) telling the truth.

That friend became an atheist several years ago, and I do have to wonder sometimes whether one of the causes was the failure of her own system to tell the truth.

Sorry, I didn't mean to suggest you believe such, but I had never seriously considered alternative eschatological views (to Dispensationalism) until recently. I was only marginally aware of preterism terminology and vaguely knew of a few of their beliefs. I still am in the process of cobbling these alternatives together. From what little I know I see that you and Illinoisguy seem to have some affinity for certain beliefs that appear to be from a preterist perspective. Since you believe in a future physical return of Christ I assume that you are an adherent variant of partial preterism. The question about Christ's return was just a quick (and admittedly abrupt) way of seeing where you stood on that continuum.

Your point about your friend turning from the faith because of failed Dispensational prophecy is very interesting. I would first ask if she was grounded in the whole counsel of God's word, or if she had been disproportionately fixated with seeing her life/faith in rigid terms of expecting Christ's return to happen in an immediate (her lifetime) context, to the exclusion of her missional and ethical responsibilities.

Edit: As far as "How many failed predictions does it take to question whether the whole system is defective?" I think those that are more dogmatic about their claims to know how every detail of prophecy must fit into a timeline for Christ's return are more inclined to fall into the mode of date setting, which we know is absolutely violating explicit prohibitions of Christ Himself. As such, your point is valid that such an iron clad system will often lead to disappointment and consequently a weakening of faith.

 

[Ekklesian]

The supposed restoration of Israel has confused the problem...

Indeed. Zionism is the problem in the Middle East.

...of whether the Jews are to be restored before or after the coming of the Messiah.

Messiah has come.

Edit: All the Jewish stuff has been taken care of. That Old Testament? It's done. It's set aside. It's cancelled. His Kingdom is here, upon the earth. Jesus is on the Throne, and He is ruling His Kingdom, and also the nations that He has received as His inheritance.

It is Christ that is returning, not for the Jews, but for His people, the Redeemed of the earth, and with Him, Judgement. It will be as it was in the days of Noah. When the last of the elect has entered into Christ by faith, then the Door will be shut, and Judgement will rain down upon the earth.

 

[biscuit1953]

Zechariah 13:8-9 is commonly cited by those who believe that 2/3 of all Jews must die in a future Great Tribulation period. Liberal Protestants, Roman Catholics, Jews and Muslims are aware that evangelical Christians believe such a thing, and they think we are nuts for teaching this. I think it's nuts, too - I don't believe a single Jew has to die in order for Christ to return.

Zechariah 13:8-9 cannot refer to a judgment or slaughter of the Jews at a time future to us, and here's why - in Luke 21:22, Christ stated concerning the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in 70 AD that "These be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled." Zechariah's prophecy would come under the classification of "all things which are written" concerning God's vengeance on the Jews, so if we are looking for a literal fulfillment, with mathematical precision, of that predicted slaughter of the Jews, it would have to be found no later than 70 AD.

Could Christ, when He predicted the "days of vengeance," have been referring to a future Great Tribulation? No - it is generally accepted, even by dispensationalists, that Luke 21:20-24 refers to the destruction of Jerusalem by Titus in 70 AD (see Scofield Reference Bible, 1917 edition, p. 1106).

In Matthew 23:35-36 Christ warned the generation of Jews then living that all the predicted judgments of God against them would be fulfilled in their lifetime: "That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation."

Once the judgments predicted against the Jews were fulfilled in 70 AD, there were no more divinely predicted judgments remaining against them to be fulfilled. This rules out a future fulfillment of Zechariah 13:8.

By the same scriptural reasoning, Jeremiah 30:7, a prediction of "the time of Jacob's trouble," cannot refer to any event in our future. Jeremiah was talking about the 70-year Babylonian captivity of the Jews during the 6th Century BC - Jacob was saved out of it, returning from captivity beginning in 538 BC.

Old Testament verses like these are misused and yanked out of their context, by prophecy teachers who say that the main purpose of the Great Tribulation is for God to pound on the Jews. (Like for instance, Jack Van Impe's book "Israel's Final Holocaust)." I don't believe that stuff, and if that be heresy, make the most of it.

I think both sides of this issue have been presented. Hopefully it will encourage Christians who perhaps only get their theology from sitting in church on Sunday morning waiting for the afternoon football game to get serious in their Bible study. Prophecy is no joke and world events will play out exactly as the scriptures predict even if we don’t fully understand all the details. God bless you.

 

[ALAYMAN]

His Kingdom is here, upon the earth. Jesus is on the Throne, and He is ruling His Kingdom, and also the nations that He has received as His inheritance.

Is His kingdom here now in fulness?

 

[DrHuk&Duck]

Hopefully it will encourage Christians who perhaps only get their theology from sitting in church on Sunday morning waiting for the afternoon football game to get serious in their Bible study.

Have you been spying on me?

 

[illinoisguy]

Okay, since there is concern that I may not believe that Jesus is coming to earth again, here is what I believe, from the 1833 New Hampshire Baptist Confession of Faith:

"XVIII. Of the World to Come We believe that the end of the world is approaching; that at the Last Day Christ will descend from heaven, and raise the dead from the grave to final retribution; that a solemn separation will then take place; that the wicked will be adjudged to endless punishment, and the righteous to endless joy; and that this judgment will fix forever the final state of men in heaven or hell, on principles of righteousness."

Until recently, it was enough for evangelical Christians to believe this, without all the extraneous claptrap nonsense about how 2/3 of the Jews have got to be killed, the Antichrist is going to be a gay Jew, he will make a 7-year deal with Israel to build a temple with animal sacrifices, Satan is now ruling the world, Roman Empire to be revived, mere mortal men have forced a 2000-year "parenthesis" in God's plan, or the Antichrist is Kissinger, Reagan, Saddam, Obama, Trump or anyone who is in favor of peace in the Middle East, blah blah blah.

Come on folks, we are all making fools of ourselves by all this goofy prophetic speculation. Does anybody remember all these signs of the Rapture - the European Common Market, Israeli conquest of the Wailing Wall in 1967, Comet Kohoutek, Planet X, the planetary alignments, the Blood Moons (John Hagee), the year 1988 (Hal Lindsey), the year 1994 (Harold Camping), the year 2000 (Jack Van Impe), Melody the red heifer, the 2017 solar eclipse, etc. etc. But hey, I guess all this superstitious soothsaying stuff is good for prophecy book and video sales and for donations to the big-name prophecy televangelistic "ministries."

 

[ALAYMAN]

Okay, since there is concern that I may not believe that Jesus is coming to earth again, here is what I believe, from the 1833 New Hampshire Baptist Confession of Faith:

"XVIII. Of the World to Come We believe that the end of the world is approaching; that at the Last Day Christ will descend from heaven, and raise the dead from the grave to final retribution; that a solemn separation will then take place; that the wicked will be adjudged to endless punishment, and the righteous to endless joy; and that this judgment will fix forever the final state of men in heaven or hell, on principles of righteousness."

Until recently, it was enough for evangelical Christians to believe this, without all the extraneous claptrap nonsense about how 2/3 of the Jews have got to be killed, the Antichrist is going to be a gay Jew, he will make a 7-year deal with Israel to build a temple with animal sacrifices, Satan is now ruling the world, Roman Empire to be revived, mere mortal men have forced a 2000-year "parenthesis" in God's plan, or the Antichrist is Kissinger, Reagan, Saddam, Obama, Trump or anyone who is in favor of peace in the Middle East, blah blah blah.

Come on folks, we are all making fools of ourselves by all this goofy prophetic speculation. Does anybody remember all these signs of the Rapture - the European Common Market, Israeli conquest of the Wailing Wall in 1967, Comet Kohoutek, Planet X, the planetary alignments, the Blood Moons (John Hagee), the year 1988 (Hal Lindsey), the year 1994 (Harold Camping), the year 2000 (Jack Van Impe), Melody the red heifer, the 2017 solar eclipse, etc. etc. But hey, I guess all this superstitious soothsaying stuff is good for prophecy book and video sales and for donations to the big-name prophecy televangelistic "ministries."

With all due respect, I don't deny that there are plenty of kooky dispensationalist claims, but the church I have been a part of, which has been cut from that general mold, has never made any of those kinds of claims in my 25+ years of membership. You don't have to demonize a whole swath of people because of some bad examples.

 

[Ransom]

Indeed. Zionism is the problem in the Middle East.

"Indeed," I said nothing of the kind. Go back to the kids' table and stop pretending I was agreeing with you.

 

[Ransom]

From what little I know I see that you and Illinoisguy seem to have some affinity for certain beliefs that appear to be from a preterist perspective. Since you believe in a future physical return of Christ I assume that you are an adherent variant of partial preterism.

To the extent that anyone is a preterist, sure. I think only the most diehard Dispensationalist would deny that at least some prophecy was fulfilled by the time of Christ or thereabouts. At the very least, you have to point to, say, Isaiah 8 or 53.

For my part, I think Jesus was probably talking about the destruction of Jerusalem in Ad 70 by Titus in Matthew 24, and that the "seventy weeks" of Daniel 9 alludes to that as well. Beyond that, I'm pretty much a futurist.

Your point about your friend turning from the faith because of failed Dispensational prophecy is very interesting. I would first ask if she was grounded in the whole counsel of God's word, or if she had been disproportionately fixated with seeing her life/faith in rigid terms of expecting Christ's return to happen in an immediate (her lifetime) context, to the exclusion of her missional and ethical responsibilities.

I would have called her very grounded, and in fairness, I can't lay the blame for her apostasy strictly on a faulty hermeneutic. Personality and circumstances also probably paid a big part. But she grew up Brethren, and Dispensationalism is part and parcel of their doctrine. (I also attended a Brethren church in my teens, but my own religious upbringing was more eclectic, so I never had the opportunity to take Dispensationalism for granted.)

I think those that are more dogmatic about their claims to know how every detail of prophecy must fit into a timeline for Christ's return are more inclined to fall into the mode of date setting, which we know is absolutely violating explicit prohibitions of Christ Himself.

I'm not thinking even of something as extreme as date-setting. It's the tendency to react to every major event in the Middle East by tying it to the same handful of prophetic verses and claiming we are seeing prophecy fulfilled in the news before our very eyes. Every overture toward peace in the Middle East isn't Daniel's 70th week coming to pass, guys.

The same goes for the 6.022×10²³ new technologies that have been called the "mark of the Beast" in my lifetime. At some point, you just have to realize predictions aren't just mistaken; the presuppositions that lead to them are themselves faulty.

 

[biscuit1953]

If someone wanted to get a study Bible with verse by verse notes that contrast the traditional Reformed Preterist view with the Dispensationalist futurist view that doesn’t follow the Scofield system my recommendation would be The ESV Study Bible by Crossway and The John MacArthur Study Bible. I don’t have the ESV Study Bible but from everything I have read it would agree closely with R.C. Sproul and those in that camp. If I am wrong about that then someone can correct that.

 

[Ekklesian]

"Indeed," I said nothing of the kind. Go back to the kids' table and stop pretending I was agreeing with you.

"Indeed, neither did I say you did. It was Noll I was augmenting.

See there? Evidently your glasses need cleaning.

 

[Ransom]

"Indeed, neither did I say you did. It was Noll I was augmenting.

Wasn't his point, either.

You and your imaginary friend should start a podcast or something. Bet it would be a masterpiece of unintentional comedy, of the" old man yells at cloud" variety.

 

[Ransom]

... Preterist... MacArthur... R.C. Sproul

You're slipping. Only three points.

 

[Ekklesian]

Wasn't his point, either.

LOL. Didn't say it was. But "supposed restoration of Israel" would be an interesting word choice for someone who might think Israel is supposed to be restored. The implication is pretty clear.

 

[ALAYMAN]

I would have called her very grounded, and in fairness, I can't lay the blame for her apostasy strictly on a faulty hermeneutic. Personality and circumstances also probably paid a big part. But she grew up Brethren, and Dispensationalism is part and parcel of their doctrine. (I also attended a Brethren church in my teens, but my own religious upbringing was more eclectic, so I never had the opportunity to take Dispensationalism for granted.)

Yes, analyzing the complexity of a person's journey into apostasy is usually not limited to a singular event. And as you say, those personal circumstances often play a large part in doubt, because a consistent hermeneutic is more cerebral, whereas the existential nature of evil (and God's "fairness") often is the stone thrown by apostates.

I'm not thinking even of something as extreme as date-setting. It's the tendency to react to every major event in the Middle East by tying it to the same handful of prophetic verses and claiming we are seeing prophecy fulfilled in the news before our very eyes. Every overture toward peace in the Middle East isn't Daniel's 70th week coming to pass, guys.

The same goes for the 6.022×10²³ new technologies that have been called the "mark of the Beast" in my lifetime. At some point, you just have to realize predictions aren't just mistaken; the presuppositions that lead to them are themselves faulty.

Avogadro, good stuff, lol.

Though I think your inferences about the date-setters and Antichrist guessers are logically warranted, correlation and causation are tricky things. I can see that same logic being employed by agnostics/atheists to undermine Christian doctrine in general by pointing to how many tares there are amongst the so-called (their perspective) wheat.