Will the Rapture Happen Tomorrow?

[illinoisguy]

I ask you this question once again, Why do you insist there will not be a thousand year reign of Christ on the earth as clearly laid out in Rev 20:1-4?

I don't recall insisting there will not be a thousand year reign of Christ on the earth. So I can't really explain why I insist on that, when I have no recollection of insisting or even bringing up that issue at any time on this forum. You have a habit of bringing up these rabbit trails, like for instance the tale of the Calvinist who didn't want to have children, that have nothing to do with the subject of discussion, and meanwhile you don't respond adequately to the questions posed to you on the issues you insist on.

When are/were the Jews supposed to run for the hills without looking back or going back for their cloak?

The believing Christians, to whom the Olivet Discourse was addressed, who were alive in that generation (not a future generation 2000 years later) were supposed to run for the hills when they saw the approach of the Roman army in 67 AD. And they did.

 

[ALAYMAN]

The believing Christians, to whom the Olivet Discourse was addressed, who were alive in that generation (not a future generation 2000 years later) were supposed to run for the hills when they saw the approach of the Roman army in 67 AD. And they did.

Do you believe prophecy ever has a dual fulfillment essence.

 

[Ekklesian]

The believing Christians, to whom the Olivet Discourse was addressed, who were alive in that generation (not a future generation 2000 years later) were supposed to run for the hills when they saw the approach of the Roman army in 67 AD. And they did.

If only they had stayed in town. They must have hated the Joos.

 

[Ransom]

I don't recall insisting there will not be a thousand year reign of Christ on the earth. So I can't really explain why I insist on that, when I have no recollection of insisting or even bringing up that issue at any time on this forum.

You'll have to excuse Biscuit. Since he was raised in a Dispensational Skinner box, he automatically assumes everyone who wasn't is a full-preterist amillennial.

Also, Matthew 24, John MacArthur, R. C. Sproul, agree to disagree, etc.

 

[biscuit1953]

I don't recall insisting there will not be a thousand year reign of Christ on the earth. So I can't really explain why I insist on that, when I have no recollection of insisting or even bringing up that issue at any time on this forum. You have a habit of bringing up these rabbit trails, like for instance the tale of the Calvinist who didn't want to have children, that have nothing to do with the subject of discussion, and meanwhile you don't respond adequately to the questions posed to you on the issues you insist on.


The believing Christians, to whom the Olivet Discourse was addressed, who were alive in that generation (not a future generation 2000 years later) were supposed to run for the hills when they saw the approach of the Roman army in 67 AD. And they did.

Sorry about that. I guess I am getting your position mixed up with Ekk. So you believe there will be an actual reign of Christ for one thousand year on the earth? As to the question on why I gave the example of the Calvinist who didn’t want to have children, that should be obvious. You bring up various examples of Christians who set dates or hold some kind of extreme position and place all Dispensationists in that vein. I think this subject shows why there have been so many different views among good men with honest thoughts concerning prophecy because it is difficult to pin down with precision some of the details given in scripture.

 

[Ransom]

Speaking of amillennialists (of which I am not one), anyone who looks at the 490 years of Daniel 9:24-27 and sees 2,500 years and counting should have no problem looking at the millennium in Rev. 20 and seeing 2,000 years and counting of the church age.

 

[illinoisguy]

Do you believe prophecy ever has a dual fulfillment essence.

No.

WESTMINSTER CONFESSION OF FAITH, 1648: "The true and full sense of any scripture . . . is not manifold, but one."

MILTON TERRY: "The moment we admit the principle that portions of Scripture contain an occult or double sense we introduce an element of uncertainty in the sacred volume, and unsettle all scientific interpretation. 'If the Scripture has more than one meaning,' says Dr. Owen, 'it has no meaning at all.'. . . 'This [double sense] of interpretation,' says Stuart, 'forsakes and sets aside the common laws of language.'"

JAMES STUART RUSSELL: "There is not a scintilla of evidence that the apostles and primitive Christians had any suspicion of a twofold reference in the predictions of Jesus concerning the end. . . Are we to look for double, triple, and multiple meanings, and mysteries wrapt in mysteries, where we might reasonably have expected a plain answer to a plain question? Can anyone be sure of understanding the Scriptures, if they are thus enigmatical and obscure?"

J C RYLE: "What book on earth has a double sense, unless it is a book of designed enigmas. . . . other books than the Bible have not a double sense attached to them. . . . I hold that the words of Scripture were intended to have one definite sense, and that our first object should be to discover that sense, and adhere rigidly to it."

BERNARD RAMM: "One of the most persistent hermeneutical sins is to put two interpretations on one passage of Scripture."

JOHN NOE: "There is no escaping the obvious truth that the integrity and prophetic unity of Jesus' Olivet Discourse must stand undivided. His powerful prophecy is a united, end-times discourse discussing only one subject and one fulfillment."

THOMAS ICE AND TIMOTHY DEMY: "Double fulfillment means that a specific passage will be fulfilled on two or more occasions. This is not a correct approach to biblical interpretation because prophecy can only be fulfilled once. If a certain prophecy could have multiple fulfillments then it wouldn't be specific."

 

[biscuit1953]

I am beginning to appreciate the nuances of some of the Reformed positions in relation to the Millennial reign of Christ although I strongly believe the thousand years in Revelation 20 should not be symbolized in any way. However, we can disagree without malice.

Concerning dual fulfillment in scripture, I must point out that it is found throughout scripture regardless of what anyone may say. I will give just a couple of examples and let scripture speak for itself.

2 Sam 7:12-17 – The prophecy has a near fulfillment in Solomon who would build a house and establish a kingdom but the future fulfillment is found in Jesus Christ (Isa 9:6-7; Luke 1:32-32; cf. Heb 1:8).

Joel 2:28-32 speaks of the day when “God will pour out his spirit on all flesh.” That was partially fulfilled in Acts 2 on the day of Pentecost, but Peter also acknowledges that there is a future ultimate fulfillment when there will be wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord comes (Acts 2: 19-20). The ultimate fulfillment is found in Rev 6:12 which is yet future.

Dan 9:27 – The abomination of desolation is referring to the second century B.C. when Antiochus Epiphanes desecrated the Jewish Temple by sacrificing a pig to Zeus. However, Jesus made it very clear that Daniel was also referring to a future event that the apostle Paul also refers to as future (2 Thess 2).

Malachi prophesied that Elijah would come again before the great and dreadful day of the Lord (Mal 4:5-6). Jesus plainly said that Elijah had fulfilled that prophecy referring to John the Baptist (Matt 17:12-13). If the Jews had believed, John would have been the ultimate fulfillment. So Elijah will ultimately come back as one of the two witnesses before that great and dreadful day of the Lord in Revelation 11.

The bottom line is that Jesus did not appear in heaven immediately after the destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D. and all the events Jesus described in Matthew 24 did not take place in 70 A.D. There is a future day when they shall look upon him (Jesus) whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn (Zech 12:10; Rev 1:7).

Double Reference in Biblical Prophecy | Dwell Community Church | Dwell Community Church

www.dwellcc.org

World events are set for the second coming of Christ and the great and dreadful day of the Lord. Even so come Lord Jesus.

 

[illinoisguy]

2 Samuel 7:12-17: No "dual fulfillment" here - just a continuation of the fulfillment of the prophecy that the house that God established on behalf of Solomon would always exist.

Joel 2/Acts 2: There is no basis for saying Joel's prophecy was not completely fulfilled by the events of Christ's death and resurrection.

Joel 2:28-29, Holy Spirit poured out on sons and daughters, fulfilled Acts 2:4-8. Joel 2:31, sun turns dark, fulfilled in Matthew 27:45. Moon turns to blood, astronomers say there was a "blood moon" event on Friday, April 3, 33 AD. Joel 2:30, wonders in heaven and earth, fulfilled Matthew 27:51-53 (temple veil torn, earthquake, resurrected Old Testament saints). No dual or "near and far" fulfillment here, just a spectacular total fulfillment of everything that Joel prophesied.

The Revelation 6:12 event does not appear to have any connection whatsoever to Joel's prophecy. In Revelation 6, there is no mention of the spirit being poured out, resulting in men and women prophesying, nor of anyone calling on the name of the Lord to be delivered.

However, Jesus made it very clear that Daniel was also referring to a future event that the apostle Paul also refers to as future

Yes, the abomination of desolation (the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in 70 AD) was an event still in the future to Jesus and Paul. Daniel's prophecy of the abomination of desolation was fulfilled in 165 BC; Christ's prophecy, of a separate instance of the same kind of event that Daniel predicted, was fulfilled in 70 AD. Two separate prophecies, two separate fulfillments - no "dual fulfillment."

Jesus plainly said that Elijah had fulfilled that prophecy referring to John the Baptist (Matt 17:12-13).

Yes, the prophecy of the return of Elijah was fulfilled by the coming of John the Baptist, as Jesus plainly stated. There is absolutely nothing in the Bible to indicate that Elijah will be one of the two witnesses of Revelation 11. No "dual fulfillment" here.

 

[biscuit1953]

2 Samuel 7:12-17: No "dual fulfillment" here - just a continuation of the fulfillment of the prophecy that the house that God established on behalf of Solomon would always exist.

Joel 2/Acts 2: There is no basis for saying Joel's prophecy was not completely fulfilled by the events of Christ's death and resurrection.

Joel 2:28-29, Holy Spirit poured out on sons and daughters, fulfilled Acts 2:4-8. Joel 2:31, sun turns dark, fulfilled in Matthew 27:45. Moon turns to blood, astronomers say there was a "blood moon" event on Friday, April 3, 33 AD. Joel 2:30, wonders in heaven and earth, fulfilled Matthew 27:51-53 (temple veil torn, earthquake, resurrected Old Testament saints). No dual or "near and far" fulfillment here, just a spectacular total fulfillment of everything that Joel prophesied.

The Revelation 6:12 event does not appear to have any connection whatsoever to Joel's prophecy. In Revelation 6, there is no mention of the spirit being poured out, resulting in men and women prophesying, nor of anyone calling on the name of the Lord to be delivered.


Yes, the abomination of desolation (the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in 70 AD) was an event still in the future to Jesus and Paul. Daniel's prophecy of the abomination of desolation was fulfilled in 165 BC; Christ's prophecy, of a separate instance of the same kind of event that Daniel predicted, was fulfilled in 70 AD. Two separate prophecies, two separate fulfillments - no "dual fulfillment."

Yes, the prophecy of the return of Elijah was fulfilled by the coming of John the Baptist, as Jesus plainly stated. There is absolutely nothing in the Bible to indicate that Elijah will be one of the two witnesses of Revelation 11. No "dual fulfillment" here.

I've heard of semantics and what you said fits the bill.

 

[voicecrying]

Malachi prophesied that Elijah would come again before the great and dreadful day of the Lord (Mal 4:5-6). Jesus plainly said that Elijah had fulfilled that prophecy referring to John the Baptist (Matt 17:12-13). If the Jews had believed, John would have been the ultimate fulfillment. So Elijah will ultimately come back as one of the two witnesses before that great and dreadful day of the Lord in Revelation 11.

Help me understand why Jesus saying John the Baptist fulfilling the prophecy wasn't really the ultimate fulfillment.

 

[biscuit1953]

Help me understand why Jesus saying John the Baptist fulfilling the prophecy wasn't really the ultimate fulfillment.

John the Baptist came in the spirit and power of Elijah (Matt 11:14) and Jesus told them if they had believed, John would have been the fulfillment of the Elijah prophesies. John the Baptist took on Elijah’s prophetic role but the same spirit that led to John’s execution would also put Christ on the cross. Because of that the earthly kingdom has been delayed for over 2,000 years now but it will come. The prophecy in Malachi was very specific. God would send Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD (Mal 4:5-6). That day is future (Rev 6:17).

What is the “great and dreadful day of the Lord” (Malachi 4:5)? | GotQuestions.org

What is the “great and dreadful day of the Lord”? What is the meaning of Malachi 4:5?

www.gotquestions.org

 

[Ekklesian]

However, we can disagree without malice.

We can't disagree amiably while adherents to one view are justifying the perpetrators of a genocide in the name of Christ.

 

[biscuit1953]

We can't disagree amiably while adherents to one view are justifying the perpetrators of a genocide in the name of Christ.

You're toxic.

 

[voicecrying]

John the Baptist came in the spirit and power of Elijah (Matt 11:14) and Jesus told them if they had believed, John would have been the fulfillment of the Elijah prophesies. John the Baptist took on Elijah’s prophetic role but the same spirit that led to John’s execution would also put Christ on the cross. Because of that the earthly kingdom has been delayed for over 2,000 years now but it will come. The prophecy in Malachi was very specific. God would send Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD (Mal 4:5-6). That day is future (Rev 6:17).

What is the “great and dreadful day of the Lord” (Malachi 4:5)? | GotQuestions.org

What is the “great and dreadful day of the Lord”? What is the meaning of Malachi 4:5?

www.gotquestions.org

Matthew 11:14 clearly says John is Elijah. How is that not the fulfillment of prophecy?

 

[ALAYMAN]

Matthew 11:14 clearly says John is Elijah. How is that not the fulfillment of prophecy?

Link

 

[ALAYMAN]

No.

WESTMINSTER CONFESSION OF FAITH, 1648: "The true and full sense of any scripture . . . is not manifold, but one."

MILTON TERRY: "The moment we admit the principle that portions of Scripture contain an occult or double sense we introduce an element of uncertainty in the sacred volume, and unsettle all scientific interpretation. 'If the Scripture has more than one meaning,' says Dr. Owen, 'it has no meaning at all.'. . . 'This [double sense] of interpretation,' says Stuart, 'forsakes and sets aside the common laws of language.'"

JAMES STUART RUSSELL: "There is not a scintilla of evidence that the apostles and primitive Christians had any suspicion of a twofold reference in the predictions of Jesus concerning the end. . . Are we to look for double, triple, and multiple meanings, and mysteries wrapt in mysteries, where we might reasonably have expected a plain answer to a plain question? Can anyone be sure of understanding the Scriptures, if they are thus enigmatical and obscure?"

J C RYLE: "What book on earth has a double sense, unless it is a book of designed enigmas. . . . other books than the Bible have not a double sense attached to them. . . . I hold that the words of Scripture were intended to have one definite sense, and that our first object should be to discover that sense, and adhere rigidly to it."

BERNARD RAMM: "One of the most persistent hermeneutical sins is to put two interpretations on one passage of Scripture."

JOHN NOE: "There is no escaping the obvious truth that the integrity and prophetic unity of Jesus' Olivet Discourse must stand undivided. His powerful prophecy is a united, end-times discourse discussing only one subject and one fulfillment."

THOMAS ICE AND TIMOTHY DEMY: "Double fulfillment means that a specific passage will be fulfilled on two or more occasions. This is not a correct approach to biblical interpretation because prophecy can only be fulfilled once. If a certain prophecy could have multiple fulfillments then it wouldn't be specific."

I could likewise post credible sources that claim dual fulfillment as a legitimate hermeneutical scheme, but it just goes to show the schism between our perspectives is a matter of emphasis in interpretation, and consequently a reason to show grace to varying eschatological schemes (with the exception of full preterism imnsho).

 

[ALAYMAN]

We can't disagree amiably while adherents to one view are justifying the perpetrators of a genocide in the name of Christ.

You have a flair for the dramatic, bordering on caricature.

 

[biscuit1953]

Matthew 11:14 clearly says John is Elijah. How is that not the fulfillment of prophecy?

Jesus told them if they will receive it, John would have been the fulfillment of the Elijah prophecy. That did not happen therefore, he was not the fulfillment of that prophecy. Elijah will still come before the great and dreadful day of the Lord which of course is yet future.

 

[Ransom]

You have a flair for the dramatic, bordering on caricature.

That's not how you spell "monomania."