The Intent of the Atonement

FSSL said:
Consider another angle... When you pray for the salvation of others, how would it be different than a Calvinist?
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Imagine not being able to speak with a stranger and honestly tell them that God loves them and that He prepared an eternal home in heaven for them. An honest Calvinist cannot tell every stranger this basic truth.

An honest Calvinist rejects the following verses: Timothy 2:4 says, “God desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.” And first John 2:2 says, “Christ is the expiation for our sins and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”
 
DrHuk&Duck said:
An honest Calvinist cannot tell every stranger this basic truth.
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Maybe it isn't basically true.

DrHuk&Duck said:
An honest Calvinist rejects the following verses: Timothy 2:4 says, “God desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.” And first John 2:2 says, “Christ is the expiation for our sins and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”
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We don't reject those verses, and they've been discussed in detail on this forum already, in the past. Perhaps they just don't mean what you suppose they do.
 
Creed said:
Well, since the fabric of time is part of creation, it does necessitate it. If God knew what the exact number of saved people was from the beginning, that number is fixed and can't be changed—unless you want to assert that a person can falsify God's perfect knowledge of the future by turning left when they should have turned right.
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Please sustain the bolded claim above.

And it's error to attribute to my statement the idea that I'm claiming His knowledge of a "fixed number that can't be changed" is somehow implying He isn't sovereign (properly defined) in each and every salvation.
 
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Creed said:
It’s a stupid assertion to begin with and a false presupposition. I summed up for you how an honest Calvinist would respond. Run along now, little Timmy.
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"To tell the Christ-rejector that God loves him is to cauterize his conscience as well as to afford him a sense of security in his sins. The fact is, the love of God is a truth for the saints only, and to present it to the enemies of God is to take the children’s bread and cast it to the dogs. With the exception of John 3:16, not once in the four Gospels do we read of the Lord Jesus, the perfect Teacher, telling sinners that God loves them!"--A.W. Pink

It's not as of his question is without merit in some corners of calvinistic thought.
 
ALAYMAN said:
It's not as of his question is without merit in some corners of calvinistic thought.
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His question has a false premise and I have put that buffoon on ignore.

The reality is that no Calvinist I know would ever say God hates this person or that person. I would rephrase it to say that He has given mercy to some and has passed over the rest for judgement and I have no way of knowing who they are.

No scripture says that God hates an individual person, unless you’re talking about Jacob and Esau and the word “hate” there is being used in a comparative way. Much like how Jesus said you must hate your father and mother if you want to follow Him.

By the way, for those He has passed over, I would say that He does love them enough to allow them to continue doing what they already have the desire to do.
 
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Creed said:
His question has a false premise and I have put that buffoon on ignore.
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Your modus operandi appears to consist of poking fun of my forum handle and copy & pasting derogatory cartoons. But you call me a buffoon? 😆
Creed said:
The reality is that no Calvinist I know would ever say God hates this person or that person.
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There you go again, Slick Willy. No one invoked the word hate until you did.

I’ll say it again: “If you’re an honest Calvinist, you can’t tell every stranger you meet that God loves them. (Emphasis on honest.)”
 
DrHuk&Duck said:
I can respect your opinion since you’re being honest. It has to make witnessing to the unsaved a little awkward though, I’d imagine.
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Since the Gospel is effective and is not impacted by the imperfections in our delivery... the Calvinist has GREAT assurance that his use of scripture and his prayers will be used of God... results withstanding.
 
DrHuk&Duck said:
I can respect your opinion since you’re being honest. It has to make witnessing to the unsaved a little awkward though, I’d imagine.
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No, it just means we wouldn't use certain wording, but to lament that we can't honestly tell an unbeliever "Christ died for you" is an appeal to emotion and sentimentality, not to reason.

"Jesus Christ died for sinners. Are you a sinner? Do you feel the guilt of your sins? Look to Jesus for forgiveness."

A bit brief, perhaps--it's not a complete Gospel in itself--but it's correct, doesn't have to be unnaturally contrived just to maintain right doctrine, and is still a direct, personal appeal to the sinner to take action.
 
Ransom said:
No, it just means we wouldn't use certain wording, but to lament that we can't honestly tell an unbeliever "Christ died for you" is an appeal to emotion and sentimentality, not to reason.
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I’m not so sure…according to your logic, to be honest, you’d have to say something like, “Christ might have died for your sins.” That’s not appealing to emotion and sentiment, it’s appealing to honesty on a most basic level.
 
DrHuk&Duck said:
I’m not so sure…according to your logic, to be honest, you’d have to say something like, “Christ might have died for your sins.”
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Since I told you what I would actually say, this is not what I would "have to" say.
 
Ransom said:
Since I told you what I would actually say, this is not what I would "have to" say.
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Right. Your exact quote of what you would say (or do?): "Jesus Christ died for sinners. Are you a sinner? Do you feel the guilt of your sins? Look to Jesus for forgiveness."

But you’re being intellectually dishonest in an appeal to use niceties and not offend. Your honest statement should be something more like this: “Jesus Christ died for some sinners. Are you a sinner? Do you feel the guilt of your sins? Look to Jesus and hope for forgiveness.”
 
DrHuk&Duck said:
Your honest statement should be something more like this: “Jesus Christ died for some sinners. Are you a sinner? Do you feel the guilt of your sins? Look to Jesus and hope for forgiveness.”
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"Look to Jesus and hope for forgiveness"? I'm not a Romanist or Amish. Who's being intellectually dishonest now?
 
Ransom said:
"Look to Jesus and hope for forgiveness"? I'm not a Romanist or Amish. Who's being intellectually dishonest now?
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Don’t play coy. You know exactly what I meant.

If you’re an honest Calvinist, you can’t tell every stranger you meet that God loves them. (Emphasis on honest.)
 
DrHuk&Duck said:
Don’t play coy. You know exactly what I meant.
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I'm not playing coy. "Look to Jesus and hope for forgiveness" (as though Jesus might refuse anyone who calls out for it) is false doctrine. As I said, Roman Catholics and Amish believe that. I don't.

Why would I tell it to anyone?

If you’re an honest Calvinist, you can’t tell every stranger you meet that God loves them. (Emphasis on honest.)
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And?
 
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Ransom said:
And?
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The belief system from Calvin that you’ve chosen to adopt is heretical, in my opinion. God is good. Limited atonement is sacrilegious—the idea that Jesus only died for some. The idea that there’s some mystical power making salvation irresistible to some and unavailable to others is dismissive of the very heart of Christianity. I’m not saying God is bound to treat everyone equally, but the opportunity for salvation is not the same thing.

As an honest Calvinist, you can never tell someone “God loves you,” because you are unable to know whether the person is elect or damned. At least the Calvinist Arthur Pink was being intellectually honest when he said: “When we say that God is sovereign in the exercise of his love, we mean that he loves whom he chooses. God does not love everybody.”

You boys can’t have your cake and eat it too.

And for the record, yes, I fully understand that this topic has been discussed and argued on the forum for many years. I also understand I’m not going to switch your position, but I hope that the gravity of not being able to tell a stranger that “God loves you” gets you thinking about the ramifications of your view.
 
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Creed said:
The reality is that no Calvinist I know would ever say God hates this person or that person.
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Pink, the Calvinist, and other Calvinists do. It's obviously a possibile deductive application of the predestinarian logic.
 
FSSL said:
Since the Gospel is effective and is not impacted by the imperfections in our delivery... the Calvinist has GREAT assurance that his use of scripture and his prayers will be used of God... results withstanding.
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Wesley's/Arminian's prayers for the salvation of others are less used by God???
 
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