The Intent of the Atonement

[Ransom]

As an honest Calvinist

Blah blah blah. Your whole shtick consists of setting up and knocking down one strawman after another, every time you get told that's not what we believe.

At this point, I could not possibly give less of a crap what a dishonest person arguing in bad faith thinks an "honest Calvinist" is supposed to believe. You've had your three strikes. Time to cut my losses and redeem my time more productively.

 

[voicecrying]

Imagine not being able to speak with a stranger and honestly tell them that God loves them and that He prepared an eternal home in heaven for them. An honest Calvinist cannot tell every stranger this basic truth.

Has God prepared an eternal home in heaven for everyone? What do you do with this passage?

Romans 9:22-23
22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—

 

[ALAYMAN]

<pssst, huk, tell him it's about corporate historical election of Israel, not personal election unto salvation>






Link

 

[DrHuk&Duck]

Blah blah blah. Your whole shtick consists of setting up and knocking down one strawman after another, every time you get told that's not what we believe.

At this point, I could not possibly give less of a crap what a dishonest person arguing in bad faith thinks an "honest Calvinist" is supposed to believe. You've had your three strikes. Time to cut my losses and redeem my time more productively.

OK.

 

[DrHuk&Duck]

Has God prepared an eternal home in heaven for everyone? What do you do with this passage?

Romans 9:22-23
22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—

It’s not just Alayman who disagrees, Bob Rogers does too!

Why John Calvin was wrong about Romans 9

John Calvin Copyright by Bob Rogers, Th.D. John Calvin was wrong about Romans 9. Calvin, the Protestant reformer of Geneva, Switzerland, was a great theologian. He became famous …

bobrogers.me

Actually, I have to say I’m pretty impressed by this Dr. Rogers. Very well qualified too: https://bobrogers.me/about/

 

[DrHuk&Duck]

Pink, the Calvinist, and other Calvinists do. It's obviously a possibile deductive application of the predestinarian logic.

While researching this topic, I came across an interesting link to a guy named Dr. Walls, who actually wrote a book on this very topic. What’s interesting about him is he’s a former Calvinist. Pretty impressive qualifications as well: master’s degree from Yale and PhD from Notre Dame. https://denverjournal.denverseminary.edu/the-denver-journal-article/does-god-love-everyone-the-heart-of-what-is-wrong-with-calvinism/#:~:text=On this Arminians and Calvinists,freely believe and be saved.

And hey, he’s even from Knockemstiff, Ohio…I know you’re going to like this guy! https://www.moralapologetics.com/wordpress/jerrywalls

 

[FSSL]

Wesley's/Arminian's prayers for the salvation of others are less used by God???

Never said anything like that. In fact, there is typically ZERO difference between an Arminian praying to God to save people and those of the Calvinist.

 

[ALAYMAN]

...

And hey, he’s even from Knockemstiff, Ohio…I know you’re going to like this guy! https://www.moralapologetics.com/wordpress/jerrywalls

I know exactly where Knockemstiff is, what a great representative name for our little slice of hillbilly heaven, lol. It's about an hour from me. Familiar with Asbury too. A former Ohio Democrat governor (Ted Strickland), who taught a class I took at the local university, and went to school with my Mom, went to Asbury.

 

[ALAYMAN]

Never said anything like that. In fact, there is typically ZERO difference between an Arminian praying to God to save people and those of the Calvinist.

Okay, I suppose I misunderstood your point. What were you trying to say about the assurance of your prayers?

 

[FSSL]

Okay, I suppose I misunderstood your point. What were you trying to say about the assurance of your prayers?

The full context included "results withstanding."

The Arminian does not have assurance unless he has results (eg the emphasis on the numbers of converts)

The Calvinist rests in God's working.. God's Will is ALWAYS accomplished (Calvinists dont worry about numbers and manipulation techniques)

The Arminian and Calvinist both pray: "God, please save this person."

 

[Creed]

Pink, the Calvinist, and other Calvinists do. It's obviously a possibile deductive application of the predestinarian logic.

I’m not familiar with Pink’s work, but that might be true of some hyper-Calvinists who believe in the concept of equal ultimacy.

 

[ALAYMAN]

I’m not familiar with Pink’s work, but that might be true of some hyper-Calvinists who believe in the concept of equal ultimacy.

Yes, some people argue that he was a hyper. That's highly debated. Regardless, the point is that some calvinistic logic leads to the conclusion that God does not love some people in any sense.

 

[ALAYMAN]

The full context included "results withstanding."

The Arminian does not have assurance unless he has results (eg the emphasis on the numbers of converts)

The Calvinist rests in God's working.. God's Will is ALWAYS accomplished (Calvinists dont worry about numbers and manipulation techniques)

The Arminian and Calvinist both pray: "God, please save this person."

I'm still having a little trouble understanding the difference between the assurance concept that you're conveying. Both prayers of the Cal and Arm, as you allude to in your last statement, rely upon God yo do the saving. Neither prayer always results ultimately in the salvation of the one that is prayed for. So what is the difference in their level of assurance?

 

[Creed]

Regardless, the point is that some calvinistic logic leads to the conclusion that God does not love some people in any sense.

Would you say that after the final judgement He will continue to love a soul that ends up in Gehenna?

 

[FSSL]

I'm still having a little trouble understanding the difference between the assurance concept that you're conveying. Both prayers of the Cal and Arm, as you allude to in your last statement, rely upon God yo do the saving. Neither prayer always results ultimately in the salvation of the one that is prayed for. So what is the difference in their level of assurance?

The Calvinist assurance is that knows God's Irresistible Grace will accomplish its task in those who are chosen.

The Arminian will "wring his hands" wondering if he has done enough.

 

[Ekklesian]

The Atonement was the intent of Creation.

 

[ALAYMAN]

Would you say that after the final judgement He will continue to love a soul that ends up in Gehenna?

In the sense that he ultimately gave them the consequence of their own choice, in the balance of His perfect nature in Holiness and love, yes.

 

[ALAYMAN]

The Calvinist assurance is that knows God's Irresistible Grace will accomplish its task in those who are chosen.

The Arminian will "wring his hands" wondering if he has done enough.

That's interesting, because I'm not an Arminian, nor do I consider myself a Calvinist, but when I pray for the salvation of a soul I am confident and content with the sovereign choice of God and the decision of the lost person.

 

[JesusFan]

Got it, so it is the latter. But anyway, here it is again:

If you’re an honest Calvinist, you can’t tell every stranger you meet that God loves them. (Emphasis on honest.)

We can tell them the good news of the gospel, as we do not know if they are the elector not of God

 

[JesusFan]

Jesus loved the rich young ruler (Mark 10:21) and yet his story ends with him walking away, rejecting Jesus's invitation to become his disciple. That's the last we hear of him.

Jesus also loved John (John 13:23), who was one of his closest disciples and wrote 20% of the New Testament.

All love is not the same, and even divine love is not equal for all persons or of the same kind. There is a sense in which God loves the whole world (John 3:16). What a Calvinist won't say is that God's love is always saving.

God loves all people, and yet even in the Bible has "special love" towards his own Covenant people