The Sons of God and the Nephilim

I won't reproduce his reasoning in this post, but His conclusion is that the sons of God are fallen angels, 'the angels that sinned' according to Peter, and 'the angels which kept not their first estate' according to Jude.

Their sin is that they lusted after human women and had children by them.

The Nephilim are not their offspring, but were heroes that were in the world before 'and also after that' period of history.

His divorcing of the Nephilim from the union of the sons of God and the daughters of men seems solid, but to assert that the angels could procreate with human women implies that they have sexual organs, and are genetically compatible with humans. Now, their lusting after women (or men or beasts for that matter) is no leap. Jesus said to Satan in his rebuke of Peter, 'thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.'

But that children could be born of them?

It would also mean that there is a distinction to be made between devils and fallen angels.
 
Is there anywhere else in Scripture, that the term 'sons of God' is in reference to fallen angels? If Satan is a fallen angel, I would point out that a distinction is made between him and the sons of God in Job 1:6 and 2:1. If 'sons of God' is nowhere else used in reference to fallen angels or to demons, then the indentification of the sons of God in Genesis 6 with fallen angels seems to be out of line.

I am still of the opinion that the sons of God in Genesis 6 refers to the godly line of Seth, and the extraordinary event is their becoming unequally yoked with the faithless.
 
The late Dr. Michael Heiser came across my YouTube feed a little while ago. Out of curiosity I listened to his lecture on Melchizedek and was impressed with his command of, not just the ancient biblical texts, but of the ancient texts of various Jewish sects, the surrounding cultures, and of the world view of ancient Israel during the era of the second temple, and of the first Christians.

I've learned that he was indeed a Christian in the true sense of the word, a Baptist, and he did not subscribe to JEDP, though he asserts Moses was not the sole author of the Penteteuch, and specifically of Genesis. That's neither here nor there.

He is best known for his focus on what he has called The Unseen Realm.

Briefly, and quite unsatisfactorily...

The Nephilim are the offspring of the ben elohim, the Sons of God, who rebelled and left their first habitation, heaven, and took human women as wives.

The 'us' in Genesis 1 is not the Trinity. (Heiser is a Trinitarian.) It is the Divine Council, the Sons of God. Psalm 82: God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods [the elohim].

The ben elohim , the sons of God, are not angels, though often the term angles is used to describe all divine, meaning supernatural, beings. After Babel, the world was divided and apportioned to the ben elohim, preferring the traditions of Qumran and the LXX to the Masoretic tradition of Deuteronomy 32:8...

When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when he divided mankind, he fixed the borders of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God. - Deuteronomy 32:8 ESV​
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When the Most High assigned lands to the nations, when he divided up the human race, he established the boundaries of the peoples according to the number in his heavenly court. - Deuteronomy 32:8 NLT​
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When the Most High divided the nations, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the nations according to the number of the angels of God. - Deuteronomy 32:8 BES​
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God gave the nations over to these other gods, who are also in rebellion against Him, to be ruled by them as a judgement. The ben elohim, the Sons of God, are the gods of the nations.
These are the spirits who are now in prison awaiting judgement because of Christ's victory, 1 Peter 3:19 , Jude 1:6.


Thoughts?

Watch on YouTube if your browser has trouble with the video.

 
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It was important enough for God to include it in His history, but it's not important enough to be considered?

It seems to shed a whole new light on the Day of Pentecost.
 
I don’t think it’s out of the realm of possibility to believe they were the angels now on prison.
 
Here is what Henry Morris says about this and I agree with him.

Gen 6:2 giants. These “giants” were the monstrous progeny of the demon-possessed men and women whose illicit activities led to God’s warning of imminent judgment. The Hebrew word is nephilim (“fallen ones”), a term possibly relating to the nature of their spiritual “parents,” fallen angels. That they were also physical giants is evident from the fact that the same word is later used in connection with the giants in Canaan at the time of Joshua (Num 13:33) and by the fact that the word here was translated in the Septuagint by the Greek word gigantes.

Gen 6:4 after that. “After that” clearly refers to Numbers 13:33 and probably represents an editorial insertion in Noah’s record by Moses. These giants in Canaan may also have had demonically-controlled parents; they were also known as the Anakim, the sons of Anak.

Gen 6:4 daughters of men. The idea that these “daughters of men” were actually descendants of Cain, and the “sons of God” descendants of Seth had been a widely Christian naturalistic interpretation. This was not the intended meaning of the writer, however, who could certainly have written the male descendants of Seth began to take wives from the daughters of Cain if that were his meaning. The descendants of Seth were not “sons of God” (most of them perished in the Flood) and the female descendants of both Cain and Seth were certainly “daughters of men” (literally, daughters of Adam). Besides, Adam had many other sons in addition to Cain and Seth. Further, even though intermarriage between believers and unbelievers is wrong, it could not in itself have produced universal wickedness and violence.

Gen 6:4 men of renown. The antediluvian giants had, by the time of Moses, become renowned heroes of antiquity, as far as the world was concerned. They, like their parent, were probably demon-controlled. Their gigantic stature was engineered by genetic manipulations. They could not have been demi-gods (half man, half “god”), however as ancient mythology claims, since such imaginary beings are beyond the pale of God’s creative purpose. Fallen angels are not prospects for salvation whereas fallen men and women are. A half-angel, half-human being would be an impossible anomaly in terms of soteriology. The only apparent solution to all the problems posed by these verses is demon possession of both parents and progeny, not demonic marriage or procreation.

In the cross reference where the only other place the Hebrew word Nephilim is found in the Bible, this is what Morris says.

Numbers 13:33 giants. The Hebrew word here (Nephilim) is the same as used in Genesis 6:4: “There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.” These sons of Anak, or Anakim, were “men of great stature,” and they terrified the Israelite spies (Numbers 13:32).
There were also other tribes of giants in the land. “That was also accounted a land of giant: giants dwelt therein in old time; and the Ammonites call them Zamzummims; A people great and many, and tall, as the Anakims” (Deut 2:20,21). Here, and a number of other passages, the word for “giants” is Rephaims” associated with the “Zuzims” and the “Emims” of Genesis 14:5. The Emims also were called “a people great, and many, and tall, as the Anakims” (Deut 2:10).
All these references indicate that there had been another irruption of the fallen “sons of God” just as in the days before the flood. This time the irruption was probably in connection with the events surrounding the rebellion at Babel and the subsequent worldwide dispersion of the occult religious system introduced there. These demon-possessed men and women became the progenitors of tribes characterized by giantism, just as in the antediluvian days. However, despite the fears of the spies, already many of these giant tribes had been defeated by the Edomites and Ammonites, so there was no need to fear. The next generation of Israelites fought against these tribes, and “the Lord destroyed them before them” (Deut 2:21).

There are many reports of giant skeletons found that don’t show up in a current history books.

 
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biscuit1953 said:
Here is what Henry Morris says about this and I agree with him.

Gen 6:2 giants. These “giants” were the monstrous progeny of the demon-possessed men and women whose illicit activities led to God’s warning of imminent judgment. The Hebrew word is nephilim (“fallen ones”), a term possibly relating to the nature of their spiritual “parents,” fallen angels. That they were also physical giants is evident from the fact that the same word is later used in connection with the giants in Canaan at the time of Joshua (Num 13:33) and by the fact that the word here was translated in the Septuagint by the Greek word gigantes.

Gen 6:4 after that. “After that” clearly refers to Numbers 13:33 and probably represents an editorial insertion in Noah’s record by Moses. These giants in Canaan may also have had demonically-controlled parents; they were also known as the Anakim, the sons of Anak.

Gen 6:4 daughters of men. The idea that these “daughters of men” were actually descendants of Cain, and the “sons of God” descendants of Seth had been a widely Christian naturalistic interpretation. This was not the intended meaning of the writer, however, who could certainly have written the male descendants of Seth began to take wives from the daughters of Cain if that were his meaning. The descendants of Seth were not “sons of God” (most of them perished in the Flood) and the female descendants of both Cain and Seth were certainly “daughters of men” (literally, daughters of Adam). Besides, Adam had many other sons in addition to Cain and Seth. Further, even though intermarriage between believers and unbelievers is wrong, it could not in itself have produced universal wickedness and violence.

Gen 6:4 men of renown. The antediluvian giants had, by the time of Moses, become renowned heroes of antiquity, as far as the world was concerned. They, like their parent, were probably demon-controlled. Their gigantic stature was engineered by genetic manipulations. They could not have been demi-gods (half man, half “god”), however as ancient mythology claims, since such imaginary beings are beyond the pale of God’s creative purpose. Fallen angels are not prospects for salvation whereas fallen men and women are. A half-angel, half-human being would be an impossible anomaly in terms of soteriology. The only apparent solution to all the problems posed by these verses is demon possession of both parents and progeny, not demonic marriage or procreation.

In the cross reference where the only other place the Hebrew word Nephilim is found in the Bible, this is what Morris says.

Numbers 13:33 giants. The Hebrew word here (Nephilim) is the same as used in Genesis 6:4: “There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.” These sons of Anak, or Anakim, were “men of great stature,” and they terrified the Israelite spies (Numbers 13:32).
There were also other tribes of giants in the land. “That was also accounted a land of giant: giants dwelt therein in old time; and the Ammonites call them Zamzummims; A people great and many, and tall, as the Anakims” (Deut 2:20,21). Here, and a number of other passages, the word for “giants” is Rephaims” associated with the “Zuzims” and the “Emims” of Genesis 14:5. The Emims also were called “a people great, and many, and tall, as the Anakims” (Deut 2:10).
All these references indicate that there had been another irruption of the fallen “sons of God” just as in the days before the flood. This time the irruption was probably in connection with the events surrounding the rebellion at Babel and the subsequent worldwide dispersion of the occult religious system introduced there. These demon-possessed men and women became the progenitors of tribes characterized by giantism, just as in the antediluvian days. However, despite the fears of the spies, already many of these giant tribes had been defeated by the Edomites and Ammonites, so there was no need to fear. The next generation of Israelites fought against these tribes, and “the Lord destroyed them before them” (Deut 2:21).

There are many reports of giant skeletons found that don’t show up in a current history books.

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I link this to where bible states that those creatures were chained up and reserved for judgement due to "lusting after strange flesh"
 
JesusFan said:
I link this to where bible states that those creatures were chained up and reserved for judgement due to "lusting after strange flesh"
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I think Henry Morris also links Jude 1:6-7 with the fallen angels, only he believes these angels didn’t physically cohabitate with women. He believed the fallen angels somehow through their possession of humans genetically altered them to the point they produced giants. I won’t be too dogmatic because I believe it is a difficult passage. Here is what Morris said:

Jude 1:6 first estate. “First estate” (Greek arche) is more often translated as “principality” (Eph 3:10; 6:12). A certain segment of the devil’s angels not only followed Satan in his primeval rebellion against God, but also attempted to corrupt all mankind by taking physical possession of the “daughters of men” to produce “giants in the earth in those days” (Gen 6:1-4; Job 4:18; 2 Pet 2:4). They “left their own habitation” in heaven, and have been confined in the lowest and darkest compartment of Hades awaiting the final judgment. Satan still has a great host of fallen angels (or demons) under his direction (Eph 6:12; Rev 12:3-9), and these will ultimately be cast into the lake of fire forever (Matt 25:41; Rev 20:1-15).

2 Pet 2:4 angels that sinned. There are previous references in the Bible to the sin of Satan, but none to the “angels that sinned,” except in Gen 6:1-4 where “the sons of God” took control of human women and their progeny. According to Jude 6, they “left their own habitation” in the heavens, seeking to corrupt all flesh on Earth. For this crime, God “cast them down to hell” (Greek Tartarus, the traditional prison of condemned angels, the lowest compartment of Hades), when they will eventually be cast into “everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels” (Matt 25:42).
 
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biscuit1953 said:
The antediluvian giants had, by the time of Moses, become renowned heroes of antiquity, as far as the world was concerned. They, like their parent, were probably demon-controlled. Their gigantic stature was engineered by genetic manipulations. They could not have been demi-gods (half man, half “god”), however as ancient mythology claims, since such imaginary beings are beyond the pale of God’s creative purpose. Fallen angels are not prospects for salvation whereas fallen men and women are. A half-angel, half-human being would be an impossible anomaly in terms of soteriology. The only apparent solution to all the problems posed by these verses is demon possession of both parents and progeny, not demonic marriage or procreation.
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This speculation doesn't avoid any difficulty, and still relies on naturalism. The Nephilim are presented to us as the direct descendants of the Sons of God, not descendents through proxies or surrogates. Of that there is no question.

This issue is the identity of the Sons of God. Are they presented to us as divine beings? If so, then the difficulty isn't what the Scriptures say, it's whether or not we believe them.

If one imagines for a moment that procreation between the Sons of God, that is, the divine beings, and human women is or was a possibility, and it's only our own arbitrary presuppositions that make it a difficulty, is there is anything in the text to suggest that the Sons of God are not "angels," for want of a better term?
 
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Ekklesian said:
This speculation doesn't avoid any difficulty, and still relies on naturalism. The Nephilim are presented to us as the direct descendants of the Sons of God, not descendents through proxies or surrogates. Of that there is no question.

This issue is the identity of the Sons of God. Are they presented to us as divine beings? If so, then the difficulty isn't what the Scriptures say, it's whether or not we believe them.

If one imagines for a moment that procreation between the Sons of God, that is, the divine beings, and human women is or was a possibility, and it's only our own arbitrary presuppositions that make it a difficulty, is there is anything in the text to suggest that the Sons of God are not "angels," for want of a better term?
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The marriage between believers and unbelievers doesn't produce giants. The fallen angels had something to do with the total corruption of mankind.
 
biscuit1953 said:
The marriage between believers and unbelievers doesn't produce giants. The fallen angels had something to do with the total corruption of mankind.
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So, "no"? There is nothing in the text to suggest the Sons of God are anything but divine beings?
 
Ekklesian said:
I'm just looking for a yes or a no. Taken on face value, are the Sons of God in Genesis 6 presented to us as supernatural beings?
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Yes, and just wondering if those fallen angels had anything to do with those myths of 'gods and goddesses" have they been playing round with mankind for very long time?
 
JesusFan said:
Yes, and just wondering if those fallen angels had anything to do with those myths of 'gods and goddesses" have they been playing round with mankind for very long time?
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There is no question in my mind that the ancients didn't simply make up their various mythologies. I began to question that assumption when I began to realized the differences in the descriptions of the world before Christ, and what is seen now.

I had a NT teacher, Dr. Conyers. At the time I was a freshman in college, and was very puerile and superstitious in the faith. I had all kinds of incapatible ideas swimming around in my head. I was a Dispensationalist, a Christian Zionist...but I repeat myself...a fundamentalist, yet still toying with Pentecostalism and Charismania. My view of Inspiration was more in line with Jack Chick than with St. Paul. Bill Gothard was a modern Apostle.

Needless to say, I didn't take Conyers' scholarship seriously. So I offhand rejected many of the things he presented in class. I argued with him a few times. He was a patient man, rest his soul.

A few years later, as I learned, and grew in the faith, and had developed a more systematic approach to theology, something leaped off the page to me.

And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name. And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you. Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven. - Luke 10:17-20​
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The Seventy had gone out into a very different world than the one we live in today. Devils were everywhere.

When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick: - Matthew 8:16​
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And at even, when the sun did set, they brought unto him all that were diseased, and them that were possessed with devils. - Mark 1:32 ​

They even knew their names.

But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils. - Matthew 12:24​
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Now how many times did anyone from our youth mission trips, or even from international missions, come back rejoicing that even the devils were subject to them in Jesus's name?

Then I began to think of Pharaoh's magicians, how they turned their rods into snakes, and to a point could mimic the plagues God was sending through Moses.

And I recalled something Conyers had said. I believe he was talking about this very phenomenon that I've described, and he mentioned something called The Disenchantment of the world. He was basically describing the result of the spread of the Gospel on the proliferation of magicians. I've searched and searched for something called "The Disenchantment" but to no avail. I don't even know if I'm remembering it correctly.

Anyway, I began to realize that the mythologies were, by and large, true. I don't mean they have the truth. What I mean is the people were worshipping real supernatural entities that were deceiving them. I was reading something from Augustine...I think it was in The City of God...and Augustine said, matter of factly, that we know the demons' names by the names of the idols.

So, yes. I think those fallen angels have much to do with the myths of the 'gods and goddesses', as you say.
 
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