Pastor's salaries/lifestyle.

[ALAYMAN]

I know here on the FFF when we talk about Pastor salaries it's usually in the context we have seen in IFB circles. As such, it's in the realm of whether a Pastor should be bi-vocational, or the awful congregational attitude of " keeping him poor". While recently talking with a coworker, who ostensibly is a Christian, he made the claim that a pastor should not drive an import auto, and shouldn't live in a house that is far above the average cost of his parishioners because of the bad optics. He cited Joel Osteen and the mega church types. I agree that the name-it-claim-it crowd has all kinds of problems when it comes to biblical theology and their materialistic focus. Having said that...

what kind of lifestyle rubric or expectation do you apply to a pastor's standard of living?

 

[abcaines]

I've never heard "a pastor's standard of living shouldn't be any higher than his congregation's" from anyone at or near poverty level living. This leads me to conclude that when they say that, their standard of how a pastor lives is about two notches below theirs.

 

[4everfsu]

I would not limit a pastors salary to it should not be above his congregation. To me that is like limiting a pastor IQ should not be above his congregation. I believe his salary should be sufficient for him to raise his family well, especially if his wife is a stay at home mom with children. But if he is living like Joel Osteen then my ears would perk up. Remember you are not to muzzle the oxen who is grinding out the grain. I know pastors who had a full time job and still pastored and I have a lot of respect for such a man.

 

[ALAYMAN]

I've never heard "a pastor's standard of living shouldn't be any higher than his congregation's" from anyone at or near poverty level living. This leads me to conclude that when they say that, their standard of how a pastor lives is about two notches below theirs.

I don't want to poison the well and claim that the person I'm referring to is trying to impoverish or cripple the pastor, because he really wasn't. His point, again as he alluded to the prosperity gospel types, is a condemnation of ostentatious displays of wealth, which does have its root in many scriptural admonitions, such as James 2:1-6. He would not necessarily be intimately familiar with such scriptural passages, because he's a nominal church-goer, but his point is nonetheless rooted in such thinking. In a more generalized way, he would point to the concept of a poor country farmer that he knew that became a pastor to inner city poor people and grew the church to a great scale, yet remained humble in his attitude and his personal trappings.

 

[Ransom]

One of the complaints trumped up against Jonathan Edwards by the congregants of the Northampton Church was that he gave his wife jewelry (the implication being that he was too highly paid if he had money for such luxuries). Of course they ignored the sacrifices he made himself to be able to give his wife nice things.

A pastor should set an example for his flock by living within his means. Biblical modesty isn't just about covering up: it means, in part, to not flaunt one's wealth by spending it on status symbols. But it's not a "lavish lifestyle" to live in a nice house or drive an imported car. Is a Cadillac or Tesla less "lavish" than a Toyota?

As with any vocation, his salary should be proportionate to his experience and level of responsibility.

 

[JesusFan]

One of the complaints trumped up againsy Jonathan Edwards by the congregants of the Northampton Church was that he gave his wife jewelry (the implication being that he was too highly paid if he had money for such luxuries). Of course they ignored the sacrifices he made himself to be able to give his wofe nice things.

A pastor should set an example for his flock by living within his means. Biblical modesty isn't just about covering up: it means, in part, to not flaunt one's wealth by spending it on status symbols. But it's not a "lavish lifestyle" to live in a nice house or drive an imported car. Is a Cadillac or Tesla less "lavish" than a Toyota?

As with any vocation, his salary should be proportionate to his experience and level of responsibility.

The real problem would be in say Word of faith churches, where the pastor and staff all drive new Mercedes, and the congregation gets to drive Vegas and Pintos
Then add in their private jets, its really overkill

 

[Bruh]

I know here on the FFF when we talk about Pastor salaries it's usually in the context we have seen in IFB circles. As such, it's in the realm of whether a Pastor should be bi-vocational, or the awful congregational attitude of " keeping him poor". While recently talking with a coworker, who ostensibly is a Christian, he made the claim that a pastor should not drive an import auto, and shouldn't live in a house that is far above the average cost of his parishioners because of the bad optics. He cited Joel Osteen and the mega church types. I agree that the name-it-claim-it crowd has all kinds of problems when it comes to biblical theology and their materialistic focus. Having said that...

what kind of lifestyle rubric or expectation do you apply to a pastor's standard of living?

If the average income is $45,000 per year that should be his salary. If it’s $100,000 that should be his.

Wherever the church building location, in my opinion that should be his income. Whatever town he is trying to reach then I believe he should live as that town lives. Whatever the medium income is.

 

[Ransom]

If the average income is $45,000 per year that should be his salary. If it’s $100,000 that should be his.

What if the church is very large vs. small? Should he be compensated commensurate with the increased responsibility?

 

[ALAYMAN]

One of the complaints trumped up against Jonathan Edwards by the congregants of the Northampton Church was that he gave his wife jewelry (the implication being that he was too highly paid if he had money for such luxuries). Of course they ignored the sacrifices he made himself to be able to give his wife nice things.

A pastor should set an example for his flock by living within his means. Biblical modesty isn't just about covering up: it means, in part, to not flaunt one's wealth by spending it on status symbols. But it's not a "lavish lifestyle" to live in a nice house or drive an imported car. Is a Cadillac or Tesla less "lavish" than a Toyota?

As with any vocation, his salary should be proportionate to his experience and level of responsibility.

With honorariums, income from speaking and writing (think Warren or Piper for reference, but even on a less lucrative yet significant scale), a pastor could receive income that is significantly greater than median congregational income. Do you think that availing oneself of those revenue streams would be "immodest"?

 

[ALAYMAN]

The real problem would be in say Word of faith churches, where the pastor and staff all drive new Mercedes, and the congregation gets to drive Vegas and Pintos
Then add in their private jets, its really overkill

Hey, my dad loved his Pintos, lol.

 

[Bruh]

What if the church is very large vs. small? Should he be compensated commensurate with the increased responsibility?

Yes, I think so.

 

[Ransom]

Do you think that availing oneself of those revenue streams would be "immodest"?

Having wealth doesn't make you immodest any more than having a beautiful body does. Immodesty is showing it off.

From what I understand, neither Rick Warren nor John Piper live the lifestyle of the rich and famous. When Piper was pastor of Bethlehem Baptist Church, he lived in a small house within walking distance--not a good neighbourhood, and close to the epicentre of the George Floyd riots. He certainly isn't living in a big McMansion in the suburbs. When Warren became a bestselling author, he stopped taking a salary from Saddleback and even paid back all his back salary. Whatever issues I might take with either of them, their use of their money is not one.

 

[JesusFan]

Having wealth doesn't make you immodest any more than having a beautiful body does. Immodesty is showing it off.

From what I understand, neither Rick Warren nor John Piper live the lifestyle of the rich and famous. When Piper was pastor of Bethlehem Baptist Church, he lived in a small house within walking distance--not a good neighbourhood, and close to the epicentre of the George Floyd riots. He certainly isn't living in a big McMansion in the suburbs. When Warren became a bestselling author, he stopped taking a salary from Saddleback and even paid back all his back salary. Whatever issues I might take with either of them, their use of their money is not one.

Contrast their living standrads with word of fasith as each one of the famous "Pastors" have private jets many homes fancy cars

 

[Ransom]

Contrast their living standrads with word of fasith as each one of the famous "Pastors" have private jets many homes fancy cars

Paradoxically--and I'm not justifying it--having all those luxuries are consistent with Word of Faith theology. Assuming for the sake of argument that it's true that God wants his people to be rich, then if we know Kenneth Copeland to be especially faithful, then his rumoured $750M net worth just means he's been especially blessed.

The argument fails on the assumed premise, though. It's not necessarily God's will for his people to be rich--which is why we balk at seeing an especially wealthy preacher. We know Copeland's ridiculous wealth isn't the fruit of his own labours (contrast the aforementioned Piper and Warren); it's built on the back of ministry donors, many of whom are not particularly well off.

 

[DrHuk&Duck]

what kind of lifestyle rubric or expectation do you apply to a pastor's standard of living?

If Warren Buffett, who is worth an estimated $160 billion, can live in the same modest house that he first purchased in 1958, then I don’t see why the local pastor can’t do the same. And if Sam Walton can drive an old Ford pickup truck around Bentonville, Arkansas, then I fail to see why the pastor needs a Mercedes Benz. https://www.zarownymotorsblog.com/sam-waltons-iconic-1979-ford-f-150-custom/

As @Bruh mentioned, I think the cars and housing should reflect the local socioeconomic conditions of the members. That’s probably a good rule of thumb.

 

[abcaines]

If Warren Buffett, who is worth an estimated $160 billion, can live in the same modest house that he first purchased in 1958, then I don’t see why the local pastor can’t do the same. And if Sam Walton can drive an old Ford pickup truck around Bentonville, Arkansas, then I fail to see why the pastor needs a Mercedes Benz. https://www.zarownymotorsblog.com/sam-waltons-iconic-1979-ford-f-150-custom/

As @Bruh mentioned, I think the cars and housing should reflect the local socioeconomic conditions of the members. That’s probably a good rule of thumb.

Ok... Are you willing to subject yourself to the same rules?

 

[ALAYMAN]

Ok... Are you willing to subject yourself to the same rules?

Was thinking something similar. I challenged my co-worker not to mandate pastoral goose requirements that weren't likewise good for the congregant-gander.


But Huk, rather than applying that rationale, I would simply say that our guiding principles and constraints are to be Scripture driven rather than based on secular/corporate models for ethics?

 

[ALAYMAN]

Having wealth doesn't make you immodest any more than having a beautiful body does. Immodesty is showing it off.

From what I understand, neither Rick Warren nor John Piper live the lifestyle of the rich and famous. When Piper was pastor of Bethlehem Baptist Church, he lived in a small house within walking distance--not a good neighbourhood, and close to the epicentre of the George Floyd riots. He certainly isn't living in a big McMansion in the suburbs. When Warren became a bestselling author, he stopped taking a salary from Saddleback and even paid back all his back salary. Whatever issues I might take with either of them, their use of their money is not one.

Yeah, I wasn't citing those two as bad examples, but rather men who earned large sums of money in general. They never lived ostentatiously, but the point I was making was that such earnings definitely allowed them a lifestyle possibility that is far above the average person in the pew. Piper said his church salary in his last year's was 6 figures. I doubt that was representative of the average pew sitter in his congregation. Again, that's not to impugn his salary or salaries like that, but rather to draw attention to the fact that even in the analogy that you gave, what is determined to be showy is oftentimes subjective and even at times arbitrary.

 

[DrHuk&Duck]

Ok... Are you willing to subject yourself to the same rules?

I’m not a pastor and this thread is about pastoral salaries and lifestyles. But since you’re asking, yes, I very much live in accordance with these principles. The house I own is about 75% less than the mortgage we were approved for. I’ve never owned a luxury vehicle (I prefer Jeeps and trucks anyway). I own a boat, but it is very modest, nothing that’s going to turn heads and make people drool.

 

[Ransom]

They never lived ostentatiously, but the point I was making was that such earnings definitely allowed them a lifestyle possibility that is far above the average person in the pew.

We are not all equal in our attributes. Some are faster and stronger than others, some are more intelligent, some are better-looking, and some are more blessed materially. Being rich isn't a sin. Envy is (Mark 7:22), and so is showing favoritism (Jas. 2:1ff).