Pastor's salaries/lifestyle.

[Tarheel Baptist]

I’ve got news for you, there are plenty of kids who have been molested by married Baptist preachers as well. A couple of names get tossed around on this very forum from time to time.

I’m aware…duh!

I was simply replying to your logic.

 

[Ransom]

I’ve got news for you, there are plenty of kids who have been molested by married Baptist preachers as well.

The statistics for clergy sexual abuse are roughly equal for celibate and married clergy. So his life being "completely dedicated to God" is no more likely true for one group than the other.

In any case, the Protestant position has always been that anything can be done to the glory of God. Even marital relations. It was Augustine, not God, who taught that husband and wife making babies were second-class Christian citizens.

 

[BrianH]

You've been going to the wrong churches. All of the Calvary Chapels I have attended over the past 25 years have made it a point of never taking an offering; only placing an offering box at the back of the auditorium. The only teaching about giving has come up when the passage being taught mentions giving. (2 Corinthians 9 for example.)

I do like Calvary Chapel.

I should clarify that the vast majority of my negative experiences have come from Baptist churches.

 

[ALAYMAN]

Because his life would be completely dedicated to God and his local church. No worries about divorcing his wife, or his teenage children going through rebellion, or many other issues that a married minister deals with.

Aside from the divorce, the other issues named might serve as examples to the congregation on how to handle normal family trials (1 Timothy 3:5).

 

[ALAYMAN]

.... Why the hate for the ultimate act of sacrifice to God?

What has been said that gives you the impression that there's hate for unmarried pastors?

 

[ALAYMAN]

Would any of you be uncomfortable or unwilling to have a pastor who was never married and was only interested in serving God?

I have chaired two different pastoral searches. It's a LOT of work, particularly wading through volumes of applicants (and this is a small church that I'm talking about, so not drawing the attention of big fish). In the hundreds of resumes that I have looked at, I've never seen a single applicant (pun intended ) who was unmarried, so it's not very practical as a question/consideration. Much more on the abstract and hypothetical side of the equation.

 

[ALAYMAN]

One reason why I no longer go to church buildings is that I haven't found a pastor who doesn’t justify using the teaching of tithing to support not just himself, but also the significant expenses of maintaining a structure that is merely brick and mortar. I recall once seeing a report indicating that less than 20% of the revenue is actually allocated to missionary work. If that's the case, I can bypass the middleman and contribute directly to charitable organizations of my choosing.

I’m now involved in an online only ministry and my pastor supports himself by driving a truck for a living. He encourages us to follow the actual biblical example of giving to those who are less fortunate.

So would you be willing to join yourself to a church that did not teach timing as the model? And for the record, are you suggesting that ministers should not receive any pay from those that they minister to?

 

[BrianH]

So would you be willing to join yourself to a church that did not teach timing as the model? And for the record, are you suggesting that ministers should not receive any pay from those that they minister to?

At this moment, I am not willing to depart from the ministry I am currently involved in. I do believe that ministers are entitled to be compensated for their work, but they are not entitled to insist on receiving a specified percentage amount of one's earnings. What is given should be left up to the individual.

 

[Baptist Renegade]

It was Augustine, not God, who taught that husband and wife making babies were second-class Christian citizens.

Reformed folk just LOOOOOOVE Augustine!

That is, ..............until they read what he actually believed and taught!

Same with ol' "Thomie Boy" too!

 

[DrHuk&Duck]

The statistics for clergy sexual abuse are roughly equal for celibate and married clergy. So his life being "completely dedicated to God" is no more likely true for one group than the other.

That is interesting. I didn’t know that, but I guess I shouldn’t be surprised—sadly.

 

[DrHuk&Duck]

What has been said that gives you the impression that there's hate for unmarried pastors?

It just seems that way. I get the feeling that it would cause concern for a pastoral candidate who is unmarried. Maybe I’m misreading the room though.

 

[DrHuk&Duck]

I have chaired two different pastoral searches. It's a LOT of work, particularly wading through volumes of applicants (and this is a small church that I'm talking about, so not drawing the attention of big fish). In the hundreds of resumes that I have looked at, I've never seen a single applicant (pun intended ) who was unmarried, so it's not very practical as a question/consideration. Much more on the abstract and hypothetical side of the equation.

Let me ask you this: would you see any positive aspects to an unmarried pastoral candidate?

 

[Ransom]

Reformed folk just LOOOOOOVE Augustine!

That is, ..............until they read what he actually believed and taught!

That's only one thing that he taught.

And discerning Reformed readers are well aware, for example, that his ecclesiology is inferior to his soteriology.

Same with ol' "Thomie Boy" too!

I don't know too many Reformed theologians who are that enamoured with Thomas Aquinas. R. C. Sproul, maybe. Again, a decent philosopher, but his theology also laid the groundwork for the modern Roman Catholic church.

 

[Baptist Renegade]

That's only one thing that he taught.

And discerning Reformed readers are well aware, for example, that his ecclesiology is inferior to his soteriology.

Yeah, I'm aware of that! Rabid Anti-Calvies love to jump on Augustine's seminal view and blow their gaskets over "Unbaptized babies burning in hell"

Most reformed folk hold to Federalism (as do I) and many (such as myself, the good Baptist that I am) don't believe in baptizing babies at all.

But they will not let that get in the way of their temper tantrum!

I don't know too many Reformed theologians who are that enamoured with Thomas Aquinas. R. C. Sproul, maybe. Again, a decent philosopher, but his theology also laid the groundwork for the modern Roman Catholic church.

I have had to read (re-read, re-read, read again, and still scratching my head) Thomas Aquinas in research of my thesis paper and yeah, all this scholasticism and Donum Superadditum stuff is way out there and the "Treasury of Merit" (which is supposedly based on some of his theology) is flat-out blasphemous!

I think what RC Sproul admired about Aquinas was his philosophical prowess how he would argue for God's existence from and ontological and teleological standpoint (nature-grace). Aside from that, he really needed to put down Aristotle and read his Bible! Roger Olson insists he was "Monergist" but I am not seeing it myself.

 

[Ransom]

I think what RC Sproul admired about Aquinas was his philosophical prowess how he would argue for God's existence from and ontological and teleological standpoint (nature-grace).

I linked to this article from Ligonier Ministries a while back:

Should We Read Thomas Aquinas? | Tabletalk

tabletalkmagazine.com

Short version: Appreciate Aquinas but read him with discernment.

Aside from that, he really needed to put down Aristotle and read his Bible! Roger Olson insists he was "Monergist" but I am not seeing it myself.

Olson is incorrect. Aquinas was a synergist. To be precise, he was semi-Augustinian, believing that man had to cooperate with God's grace to achieve salvation, but divine grace had to precede the act of faith. He would have agreed in principle with Augustine and the Calvinists about election and predestination being an eternal decree, though as a semi-Augustinian he would still affirm that divine foreknowledge includes human cooperation with grace.

 

[ALAYMAN]

Let me ask you this: would you see any positive aspects to an unmarried pastoral candidate?

I don't think that a pastor should show indications of being gay.




J/k


Sure, I could see it that way just as Paul said, that he would not have the same kind of encumbrances. Or, put another way, I wouldn't rule such a man out just because he didn't have a family.

 

[ALAYMAN]

It just seems that way. I get the feeling that it would cause concern for a pastoral candidate who is unmarried. Maybe I’m misreading the room though.

Well, just like you talked about the reality of congregational expectations regarding ostentatious displays of wealth as a deterrence or hindrance to ministry, there is a reality that many people who are active church members have expectations of what they like in their pastor, and it's a Utopian version of Ozzie and Harriet. You as much as conceded to that when you talked about how a pastor's family is under the microscope when it comes to their behavior.

 

[ALAYMAN]

At this moment, I am not willing to depart from the ministry I am currently involved in. I do believe that ministers are entitled to be compensated for their work, but they are not entitled to insist on receiving a specified percentage amount of one's earnings. What is given should be left up to the individual.

Not sure that I would exactly word it that way, but in essence, I agree that a pastor shouldn't be overly preoccupied with money.

Having said that, I got the impression from your previous response that you were against the organized assembly of fellow believers on the basis of monies that were required to maintain property and such. If that's a misunderstanding, I apologize.

 

[Baptist Renegade]

Let me ask you this: would you see any positive aspects to an unmarried pastoral candidate?

If he were older and had been married in the past (I.E., widower), this would not be an issue. If he were a "Whippersnapper" fresh out of Bible College, I would say that he is not yet qualified due to so much of the qualifications for the "Office of a Bishop" being connected with one's relationship with their spouse and children.

If he were older and a "Confirmed Bachelor" who actually has the "Gift" and is able to be truly celibate, I would say that he would probably make for a great Bible teacher, Scholar/Theologian, Seminary Professor, and perhaps even an evangelist. Being unmarried (and uninterested in initiating any sort of relationship) would definitely be advantageous to someone motivated to areas of scholastics and research where one would not want any unnecessary distractions!

Probably not someone I would consider for the role of a Senior Pastor though. And this would be for the reasons I mentioned above.

 

[JesusFan]

I’ve got news for you, there are plenty of kids who have been molested by married Baptist preachers as well. A couple of names get tossed around on this very forum from time to time.

The Baptist Churches though do NOT hide those pastors away, keep moving them around, and refuse to disclose on them for law purposes