The Pain Is Real

[subllibrm]

Of course not. But the implication from Paul is that discipleship is not optional.

Yes. The question that follows is what do you do when the leaders over you do not follow the Bible?

 

[ALAYMAN]

Yes. The question that follows is what do you do when the leaders over you do not follow the Bible?

Well, “don’t follow the Bible” would have to be defined and specified before we could have meaningful grounds for discussion. That’s where the OP failed to persuade me of any error on anyone’s fault. Then, assuming there was legitimate warrant for the grievance, I would say the person wounded (assuming they couldn’t get remedy with the offending leaders) should find a home where they could find agreement and be properly shepherded.

 

[Jo]

I have observed this person as they have traveled through the struggle of their journey. The conclusion that they have arrived at is an error filled mess in my opinion. At the same time I have an abiding sympathy for the hurts piled on them by the people who misapplied scripture for their own sake.

***********

"This will be a bit of a vulnerable post -

I studied this subject extensively a few years ago after a experiencing a major moral injury that was loosely related in a Baptist church. The experience raised some major questions for me.

What I learned while explorining this topic as deeply as I could radically changed my point of view — and that has cost me relationships. (sometimes that stings but I am ok with it - Ive accepted that I am not made to “go along to get along” and loss unfortunately comes with the territory.)

It also taught me some important lessons that have revealed much on a broader scale.

1. People are not actually governed by a honest adherence to a set of beliefs. They ignore the parts they dont like and make the text say what they want it to say regardless of what it actually says or any historical or cultural context. They dont really care what it says. They care that about maintaining status quo.

2. People will justify literally any immoral or inconsistent position by picking and choosing from the text and twisting themselves into pretzels to use the text to maintain their preferred position. (the women in leadership, and trump and talarico discussions are both excellent examples)

3. When they do these things, they dont actually believe anything at all - not spiritually anyway - because spiritual belief requires subordination of preferences to truth. It requires subordination of what feels normal, or comfortable, or upholds our own personal power to truth. If we subordinate truth to preference - we dont believe it is truth at all. If we subordinate what is moral to justify the status quo we dont actually adhere to that moral standard at all.

Obviously this pretty much discredits entire movements. So the remaining puzzle is sorting out truth independently - which is difficult. Obviously once the authority and credibility of an entire leadership structure has become discredited you cant trust anything that has been presented from said leadership structure. And once you fall down that hole you find it is a very very deep hole that has implications far beyond said leadership structure.

This isnt a warning about pursuing truth. Yeah that’s hard. Youre gonna have an entire identity collapse but who wants to build their identity on a lie?

This is an indictment of the structures that corrupt what they claim is incorruptible whether intentionally or unintentionally and subordinate truth to power, and I guess a repudiation of their authority. They have none - because the forfeited it.

Its been like living in a hall of mirrors and a sudden chain reaction that causes the mirrors to start breaking in succession - a domino effect that began with a subject, then multiple movements, then your own sense of identity. and then even people you have always believed in.

Sure - the hall of mirrors was illusory. But when its all you have ever known and all of it breaks, there really is nothing left and noone to rebuild with - because literally everything was totally distorted.

Platos analogy of the cave comes to mind. The problem is you cant go back in the cave. And you cant get the people in the cave to come out with you.

So there you are disoriented by the blinding sun and alone in figuring out what is next."

*************

Sadly, this is way too common and I suspect it will get worse.

"It's been like living in a hall of mirrors and a sudden chain reaction that causes the mirrors to start breaking in succession - a domino effect that began with a subject, then multiple movements, then your own sense of identity. and then even people you have always believed in."

As Robert Frost wrote, "I am one acquainted with the night." I have felt pain and disappointment in others and myself, so I feel compelled to write to a stranger on a forum. Don't know your sex, age bracket, or beliefs, so I'm making some assumptions. It sounds like you are deeply disappointed with the leadership of the organization you're either working in or a part of.

Change is very difficult, but if a person wants to grow, change they must. People you have always believed in will disappoint you. I work at not believing in people.

Sounds like you need to leave the situation you're in, but it's difficult to say. Get counseling if you can. Talk over your problems with people you trust.

I hope the best for all those involved. Give yourself time to sort it out.

 

[Bruh]

Your answer above could explain why you’re struggling with church leadership. Here, read it again…

“Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.”
‭‭

Do you find yourself looking to submit yourself to a godly man of character within the assembly? One who looks out for your soul?

Yes. I’ve done this in every church we’ve been members of and sincerely have submitted myself to every pastor.

It didn’t matter their request I did it. No facial hair, done. Saturday morning visitation, done. Bus route, done. Church work days on building, done. Suits for church service, done. My wife cut her hair to short. From the pulpit we heard a sermon about it. So she grew it out, done. Needed me to teach a Sunday school class, done. 3 different times the church was behind on bills. Men’s church meeting explained why the church was behind, gave money all 3 times, done. Pastors son that was on staff cheated on his wife with a lady in the church. The son was fired. One year later the pastor is meeting with the men individually about hiring his son again. I told him, well I trust you and you are the pastor if you believe it’s a good decision then hire him. Within 2 years of him being hired back on staff him and his wife were swinging with people in the church.

Look I could go on and on. At some point the asking began to be overbearing. After many years of this we were done.

My question to you is, who decides when the pastor is no longer following Christ. Or are we as laymen supposed to sit back and wait for the pastor to do something like the Schaap thing, as an example.

When the pastor hired his son back on staff. Should I have raised concerns or did I do the right thing by trusting the pastors judgment?

Do you believe the pastor went to far by telling me no facial hair? Would you put something like that as Lording of Gods heritage?

When my wife cut her hair and he thought it was to short then preached a sermon on it was he wrong for that?

Look who decides when this man is Lording? And if this is who this man is are we as laymen supposed to stay and continue to submit????

 

[illinoisguy]

Hebrews 13:17, the verse that rankles all libertines and freebirds.

Count me "rankled."

"Furthermore, the word traditionally translated as 'obey' in Hebrews 13:17, peithō, often means 'persuade' (in the active voice) or 'be persuaded' (in the passive voice). Peithō can also convey the ideas of 'confidence' or 'trust,' because if you are persuaded by someone or something, you usually have confidence and trust in that person or thing. In Hebrews 13:17, the verb is a plural imperative in the middle voice (peithesthe), and I translate it as 'be confident. . . .'

"In whatever way we understand the word of Hebrews 13:17, as with all instructions in the Bible, this verse should be implemented with wisdom, common sense, and kindness, and not followed mindlessly.

"Jesus taught and demonstrated that Christian ministry is not about ruling or exercising authority over others. It’s about humbly serving each other. And we should all submit to, that is, cooperate, support, and join with those who are faithfully serving God and his people."

A Note on Hebrews 13:17 - Marg Mowczko

"Obey them that have the rule over you ..." is a poor translation of Heb. 13:17a.

margmowczko.com

Maybe it's just me, but I would not have a lot of confidence or trust in any pastor who hires or re-hires a known sex pervert for any church staff position, as took place at Bruh's church. As for short hair on women, where does the Bible say that is a sin? I think it's a fashion crime, but I don't see in 1 Corinthians 11:15 or anywhere else that it is a sin. For a married woman, it's a matter between the husband and wife, and the pester (excuse me, I meant to say Pastor) needs to stay out of it.

 

[Bruh]

Count me "rankled."

"Furthermore, the word traditionally translated as 'obey' in Hebrews 13:17, peithō, often means 'persuade' (in the active voice) or 'be persuaded' (in the passive voice). Peithō can also convey the ideas of 'confidence' or 'trust,' because if you are persuaded by someone or something, you usually have confidence and trust in that person or thing. In Hebrews 13:17, the verb is a plural imperative in the middle voice (peithesthe), and I translate it as 'be confident. . . .'

"In whatever way we understand the word of Hebrews 13:17, as with all instructions in the Bible, this verse should be implemented with wisdom, common sense, and kindness, and not followed mindlessly.

"Jesus taught and demonstrated that Christian ministry is not about ruling or exercising authority over others. It’s about humbly serving each other. And we should all submit to, that is, cooperate, support, and join with those who are faithfully serving God and his people."

A Note on Hebrews 13:17 - Marg Mowczko

"Obey them that have the rule over you ..." is a poor translation of Heb. 13:17a.

margmowczko.com

Maybe it's just me, but I would not have a lot of confidence or trust in any pastor who hires or re-hires a known sex pervert for any church staff position, as took place at Bruh's church. As for short hair on women, where does the Bible say that is a sin? I think it's a fashion crime, but I don't see in 1 Corinthians 11:15 or anywhere else that it is a sin. For a married woman, it's a matter between the husband and wife, and the pester (excuse me, I meant to say Pastor) needs to stay out of it.

Yes and this is my question. Who is to decide when the pastor has crossed that line? According to Alaymen it sounds like the answer I’ve been given many times when in the IFB and that is…….your pastor is accountable to God and he will answer for how he pastors. You as a laymen are to trust God submit to the pastor and pray for him.

As with most people we get older and mature and look back at all the submitting and at that point we’re like you know what…….they can say whatever they want I don’t know care anymore at this point.

One pastor son and wife swingers.
One pastor in jail for molesting.
One pastor covered for a pedophile.
One pastor covered for a pedophile.
One pastor covered for a pedophile.
One pastor followed us to see what kind of clothes we were buying.

Again, who decides when the pastor has gone to far? Or are we as laymen supposed to just pray for him and continue to submit?

 

[ALAYMAN]

No facial hair

Legalism

Saturday morning visitation

If demanded (rather than offered), particularly as a badge of super righteousness, then legalism.

Bus route

If demanded rather than offered as an opportunity for serving Christ, then legalism.

Church work days on building

If demanded rather than … legalism.

Suits for church service

Probably legalism or at least very likely legalistic.

My wife cut her hair to short. From the pulpit we heard a sermon about it.

Brutish overbearing legalism

….

Pastors son that was on staff cheated on his wife with a lady in the church. The son was fired. One year later the pastor is meeting with the men individually about hiring his son again. I told him, well I trust you and you are the pastor if you believe it’s a good decision then hire him. Within 2 years of him being hired back on staff him and his wife were swinging with people in the church.

Nepotism and very poor judgement. Warning signs of a family business, not a New Testament church.

My question to you is, who decides when the pastor is no longer following Christ. Or are we as laymen supposed to sit back and wait for the pastor to do something like the Schaap thing, as an example.

Years ago (as his right hand man) I told my beloved former pastor (who I served with for 20 years) that the moment I witnessed such brutish exploitation and manipulation of the sheep that me and my family would walk.

When the pastor hired his son back on staff. Should I have raised concerns or did I do the right thing by trusting the pastors judgment?

I would have vociferously and respectfully said it was a bad idea, and if he insisted on re-hiring I would have walked.

Do you believe the pastor went to far by telling me no facial hair?

Yes

Would you put something like that as Lording of Gods heritage?

Probably

When my wife cut her hair and he thought it was to short then preached a sermon on it was he wrong for that?

Yes

Look who decides when this man is Lording? And if this is who this man is are we as laymen supposed to stay and continue to submit????

With wisdom, discernment, and humility, you determine if the pastor is following Christ (as I already said). The implication of 1 Cor 11:1 is submission to his leadership is conditional to his representation of Christ in authentic fashion, not unconditional authoritarian clone-like mindlessness.

One pastor son and wife swingers.
One pastor in jail for molesting.
One pastor covered for a pedophile.
One pastor covered for a pedophile.
One pastor covered for a pedophile.

Which part of these questions/scenarios is actually hard to figure out whether a pastor is following Christ?

 

[ALAYMAN]

Count me "rankled."

"Furthermore, the word traditionally translated as 'obey' in Hebrews 13:17, peithō, often means 'persuade' (in the active voice) or 'be persuaded' (in the passive voice). Peithō can also convey the ideas of 'confidence' or 'trust,' because if you are persuaded by someone or something, you usually have confidence and trust in that person or thing. In Hebrews 13:17, the verb is a plural imperative in the middle voice (peithesthe), and I translate it as 'be confident. . . .'

"In whatever way we understand the word of Hebrews 13:17, as with all instructions in the Bible, this verse should be implemented with wisdom, common sense, and kindness, and not followed mindlessly.

"Jesus taught and demonstrated that Christian ministry is not about ruling or exercising authority over others. It’s about humbly serving each other. And we should all submit to, that is, cooperate, support, and join with those who are faithfully serving God and his people."

A Note on Hebrews 13:17 - Marg Mowczko

"Obey them that have the rule over you ..." is a poor translation of Heb. 13:17a.

margmowczko.com

Maybe it's just me, but I would not have a lot of confidence or trust in any pastor who hires or re-hires a known sex pervert for any church staff position, as took place at Bruh's church. As for short hair on women, where does the Bible say that is a sin? I think it's a fashion crime, but I don't see in 1 Corinthians 11:15 or anywhere else that it is a sin. For a married woman, it's a matter between the husband and wife, and the pester (excuse me, I meant to say Pastor) needs to stay out of it.

Where have I suggested, in this thread or anywhere on this forum, that pastoral authority is unlimited?

 

[Bruh]

Legalism

If demanded (rather than offered), particularly as a badge of super righteousness, then legalism.


If demanded rather than offered as an opportunity for serving Christ, then legalism.

If demanded rather than … legalism.


Probably legalism or at least very likely legalistic.

Brutish overbearing legalism

….


Nepotism and very poor judgement. Warning signs of a family business, not a New Testament church.

Years ago (as his right hand man) I told my beloved former pastor (who I served with for 20 years) that the moment I witnessed such brutish exploitation and manipulation of the sheep that me and my family would walk.

I would have vociferously and respectfully said it was a bad idea, and if he insisted on re-hiring I would have walked.

Yes

Probably

Yes

With wisdom, discernment, and humility, you determine if the pastor is following Christ (as I already said). The implication of 1 Cor 11:1 is submission to his leadership is conditional to his representation of Christ in authentic fashion, not unconditional authoritarian clone-like mindlessness.

Which part of these questions/scenarios is actually hard to figure out whether a pastor is following Christ?

Ok you’ve answered my original question. We agree. It’s up to me to decide if the pastor has gone too far.

 

[ALAYMAN]

Ok you’ve answered my original question. We agree. It’s up to me to decide if the pastor has gone too far.

Did you do those things in service to Christ, or to please the pastor? That’s always a good place to start when evaluating our own motives for whether issues of a subjective nature (most of what you raised as issues) are Spirit led, versus conformity to external pressures and manipulation.

 

[Bruh]

Did you do those things in service to Christ, or to please the pastor? That’s always a good place to start when evaluating our own motives for whether issues of a subjective nature (most of what you raised as issues) are Spirit led, versus conformity to external pressures and manipulation.

We were in our twenties at the time and very impressionable as we got older into our 30’s we were getting tired. There was definitely manipulation on their part along with intimidation. But as you know as we get older we grow and know who we are and are much more comfortable in our skin. And I began to ask questions……now I’m a trouble maker. I’d ask for chapter and verse in context and that never went over well. And at that point I was completely ok with the way they viewed me.

So, did I do them for Christ or the pastor? Probably both.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

"Furthermore, the word traditionally translated as 'obey' in Hebrews 13:17, peithō, often means 'persuade' (in the active voice) or 'be persuaded' (in the passive voice). Peithō can also convey the ideas of 'confidence' or 'trust,' because if you are persuaded by someone or something, you usually have confidence and trust in that person or thing. In Hebrews 13:17, the verb is a plural imperative in the middle voice (peithesthe), and I translate it as 'be confident. . . .'

"In whatever way we understand the word of Hebrews 13:17, as with all instructions in the Bible, this verse should be implemented with wisdom, common sense, and kindness, and not followed mindlessly.

"Jesus taught and demonstrated that Christian ministry is not about ruling or exercising authority over others. It’s about humbly serving each other. And we should all submit to, that is, cooperate, support, and join with those who are faithfully serving God and his people."

A Note on Hebrews 13:17 - Marg Mowczko

"Obey them that have the rule over you ..." is a poor translation of Heb. 13:17a.

margmowczko.com

Maybe it's just me, but I would not have a lot of confidence or trust in any pastor who hires or re-hires a known sex pervert for any church staff position, as took place at Bruh's church. As for short hair on women, where does the Bible say that is a sin? I think it's a fashion crime, but I don't see in 1 Corinthians 11:15 or anywhere else that it is a sin. For a married woman, it's a matter between the husband and wife, and the pester (excuse me, I meant to say Pastor) needs to stay out of it.

No one here has argued that a Pastor should or does have the right to blind loyalty. A true leader in any setting must earn trust by faithfulness and competence.

The context of this verse is absolutely about Pastoral leadership in the body.
“Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you."

Church leaders are given great responsibility in shepherding a congregation and will therefore ultimately answer to God for how they care for the souls entrusted to them. With responsibility comes accountability.

I can’t imagine standing at the Judgment one day and saying
“My pastor made me do it”!

 

[ALAYMAN]

We were in our twenties at the time and very impressionable as we got older into our 30’s we were getting tired. There was definitely manipulation on their part along with intimidation. But as you know as we get older we grow and know who we are and are much more comfortable in our skin. And I began to ask questions……now I’m a trouble maker. I’d ask for chapter and verse in context and that never went over well. And at that point I was completely ok with the way they viewed me.

So, did I do them for Christ or the pastor? Probably both.

If you were in a hardcore Hyles type church with a butthead insecure narcissist leading you then it’s extremely likely you were not shepherded, but rather cajoled, manipulated, and harassed. Of course none of that justifies what seems to be implied as the proper course of action in the OP (As Tarheel originally said earlier, it looks like a person deconstructing their faith and blaming the mean pastor as justification).

 

[ALAYMAN]

No one here has argued that a Pastor should or does have the right to blind loyalty. A true leader in any setting must earn trust by faithfulness and competence.

The context of this verse is absolutely about Pastoral leadership in the body.
“Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you."

Church leaders are given great responsibility in shepherding a congregation and will therefore ultimately answer to God for how they care for the souls entrusted to them. With responsibility comes accountability.

I can’t imagine standing at the Judgment one day and saying
“My pastor made me do it”!

Amen! Worthy of being placed as a Sticky note atop the forum!

 

[illinoisguy]

Who decides when the pastor has gone to far?

You do. (Although I recommend that married men consult with their better half).

 

[Ransom]

Yes and this is my question. Who is to decide when the pastor has crossed that line?

What makes you unable?

 

[Bruh]

What makes you unable?

At this point nothing. During that time in our lives we weee taught to follow without question. We were taught even if the pastor gives bad advice Gid will bless you for following leadership.