Let's talk about the word "standards"

[ALAYMAN]

If you say so.

Here’s the thing, I know this is the FFF but how many on here were IFB and are not any longer? You can’t expect families to move states to find a “good” IFB” church. I know that youre not saying to jump states but the point is……..try and find one in your area probably not gonna happen.

Something simple, what is the percentage of IFB churches that require women to wear a dress to teach Sunday school?

Probably impossible to find out but it ain’t 2%. My guess is that it’s over 75%if not 95 or 98%

I live in a county that has a population of about 70,000, and a fairly rural southern part of Ohio. The culture is pretty much like you hear about when people speak of the “Bible belt”. In that respect, as far as (IFB) Baptists go, there are a few that may be somewhat like you’re familiar with regarding “standards”, but I am personally acquainted with a half a dozen or more within 10 to 15 miles of me that are not. They are pasture by men who have graduated from fundamental Baptist colleges like Crown, Midwestern, Hyles, etc.

In my church, I’ve never heard one single sermon on tattoos, pants on women, hair length, or a host of other things that you all rail against on the forum for 25 years. Long ago when I first began attending this church the young preacher who was instrumental in my growth did have some instruction on the King James being the only preserved word for God‘s people, but other than that, I never heard about versions, despite the fact some would classify us as King James only. And there’s never been a requirement for a woman to wear a dress in order to teach kids.

 

[Bruh]

Having STANDARDS for such positions doesn't make them a cult. You've got one twisted, WARPED set of values and opinions. You say they go to one extreme, yet YOU go to the other and don't see yourself as a cult member? UGH!!!

It’s a cult if their churches preach it from the pulpit. Because then it becomes thus sayeth the Lord. And you are now not right with God.

 

[Bruh]

I live in a county that has a population of about 70,000, and a fairly rural southern part of Ohio. The culture is pretty much like you hear about when people speak of the “Bible belt”. In that respect, as far as (IFB) Baptists go, there are a few that may be somewhat like you’re familiar with regarding “standards”, but I am personally acquainted with a half a dozen or more within 10 to 15 miles of me that are not. They are pasture by men who have graduated from fundamental Baptist colleges like Crown, Midwestern, Hyles, etc.

In my church, I’ve never heard one single sermon on tattoos, pants on women, hair length, or a host of other things that you all rail against on the forum for 25 years. Long ago when I first began attending this church the young preacher who was instrumental in my growth did have some instruction on the King James being the only preserved word for God‘s people, but other than that, I never heard about versions, despite the fact some would classify us as King James only. And there’s never been a requirement for a woman to wear a dress in order to teach kids.

“And there’s never been a requirement for a woman to wear a dress in order to teach kids.”

This is your church, right?

What about these other IFB churches? Do they require this of the women?

 

[subllibrm]

I am not arguing for making wholesale indictments against people based upon subjective evaluations, but to deny that culture is a measuring stick for general truths is also shortsighted.

Tattoos?

 

[subllibrm]

I was raised IFB
--Church
--Bible College
--Seminary
--YouthPastor in an IFB church
--Assistant Pastor in an IFB church
--Associate Pastor in an IFB church
--Assisted with planting a couple of IFB churches

We hit the road in a RV 15 years ago. Visited gospel preaching churches and only found 5 that preached the Word: Evangelical Free in Gaylord MI, Presbyterian in Brighton MI, Evangelical Free in Pensacola, Southern Baptist in Gulf Shores and now NonDenominational (Baptists ) in Robertsdale, Alabama

We tried a new church every week as we traveled throughout the midwest from Canada to the Gulf... pastors are starving their congregations.

While I firmly believe the original tenants of Fundamentalism... I am not in association with any today.

E Free Gaylord!!! Woot woot! Great church.

 

[subllibrm]

Fall into what percentage?

"All" generally is 100% but I am open to alternative approaches.

 

[Bruh]

"All" generally is 100% but I am open to alternative approaches.

All IFB churches or all churches he’s been a part of?

 

[subllibrm]

All IFB churches or all churches he’s been a part of?

Do you even read what you reply to?

 

[AverageJoe]

It’s a cult if their churches preach it from the pulpit. Because then it becomes thus sayeth the Lord. And you are now not right with God.

When they have only ONE verse on a certain subject and try to make it a major doctrine they're a cult. The first Baptist college I went to was like that. I never did get to graduate from it at that time. I was just suspended my first semester of the first year for standing up during chapel service. My parents Western Wear store was hiring and they had ads out. Well, the Dean of Students got up raising all kinds of hades about it using the name "Christian Brothers" because both owners wives wore blue jeans instead of dresses or skirts, and that they looked like sluts! Wrong thing to say when an owners son is sitting in chapel service. I stopped him mid-sentence and told him that was a lie and totally uncalled for. I told him he owed my parents and the other partner and his wife apologies, and me for having to listen to his slander. I then walked out and went to MY business to work. He refused to apologize and wanted me expelled. But the pastor of the church who was also president of the college and fellowship associated with it ( it was a split off of the group out of Springfield, MO), and took the suspension from my record and refused to expell me. I finished the semester and tried to go back for the whole second semester, but I was having to work 30 hours per week at Wendy's in E. Peoria to supplement my partnership in the autobody shop. My partner was delivering pizzas.
At any rate, the Dean was trying to use the OT verses about women not wearing that which pertained to the man. He was a poor preacher and an even worse dean/administrator. I finally ended up going to Maranatha Baptist Bible College in Watertown Wisconsin! Thank God for that!

 

[AverageJoe]

E Free Gaylord!!! Woot woot! Great church.

I truly wish we had an Evangelical Free church in our area, but nobody wants to plant one here. My wife and I no longer attend a Baptist church instead going to a church that split from the United Methodists a couple of years ago over their decision to accept homosexuals as pastors. My friends both pastor one of these churches and we go to both since they work in cooperation on so many things. They both have been trying to get me to become active in the ministry again. Maybe after another year of self imposed discipline. Both pastors have agreed to assist in this. I have refused ordination three times since 1983. If these pastors feel after 12 months that I should be ordained I will be willing to accept it at that point.

 

[biscuit1953]

“I know of MANY IFB churches that ARE NOT a cult,”

In my opinion you can spot a cult if they require women to wear a dress to teach Sunday school.

So, do these churches that you claim not to be a cult require this?

Whether you like it or not, pants for many years were considered strictly men’s clothing. As I mentioned, once before, if you could go back in a time machine not that many generations ago and tried to apply your modern “standards” back then, you would be arrested. Even the public schools I went to until the last few years of high school girls always wore dresses to school because it was considered “appropriate.” There has always been a transition period from certain things that once were taboo in one generation to becoming accepted in the younger generation.

https://www.britannica.com/today-in-history/December-29-Arrested-For-Wearing-Pants

https://bellinghistory.com/blog/2016/9/19/bellingham-1911-women-arrested-for-wearing-pants

https://wordsareourheroes.medium.co...for-wearing-pants-80-years-apart-cf163135c300

California Retrospective: In 1938, L.A. woman went to jail for wearing slacks in courtroom

Kindergarten teacher Helen Hulick made Los Angeles court history — and struck a blow for women's fashion — in 1938.

www.latimes.com

 

[Bruh]

You’re

Whether you like it or not, pants for many years were considered strictly men’s clothing. As I mentioned, once before, if you could go back in a time machine not that many generations ago and tried to apply your modern “standards” back then, you would be arrested. Even the public schools I went to until the last few years of high school girls always wore dresses to school because it was considered “appropriate.” There has always been a transition period from certain things that once were taboo in one generation to becoming accepted in the younger generation.

https://www.britannica.com/today-in-history/December-29-Arrested-For-Wearing-Pants

https://bellinghistory.com/blog/2016/9/19/bellingham-1911-women-arrested-for-wearing-pants

https://wordsareourheroes.medium.co...for-wearing-pants-80-years-apart-cf163135c300

California Retrospective: In 1938, L.A. woman went to jail for wearing slacks in courtroom

Kindergarten teacher Helen Hulick made Los Angeles court history — and struck a blow for women's fashion — in 1938.

www.latimes.com

You’re probably right but the point is, dresses only on women is not found in scripture. Therefore, if taught behind the pulpit that pastor is saying thus sayeth the Lord, now that church becomes a cult because the woman is now in disobedience to her Lord.

 

[biscuit1953]

You’re


You’re probably right but the point is, dresses only on women is not found in scripture. Therefore, if taught behind the pulpit that pastor is saying thus sayeth the Lord, now that church becomes a cult because the woman is now in disobedience to her Lord.

If you go to a church that requires Sunday School teachers or choir members to dress up, instead of being a Pharisee or heretic (one who causes division) simply go to another church. If the church is abusive and shows no grace you shouldn’t go there anyway.

 

[ALAYMAN]

“And there’s never been a requirement for a woman to wear a dress in order to teach kids.”

This is your church, right?

What about these other IFB churches? Do they require this of the women?

It’s not “my church“, it’s the Lord’s church.. But to answer your question with a little more seriousness, I am the assistant pastor and don’t typically set such “standards”. I’m not sure about all of the other churches policies on women’s expectations when they teach children, but I know that some don’t hold onto that policy. Let’s run with your logic here though as to what defines a cult.

What if the church requires men who sing in the choir or take up the offering to wear a jacket and wear a tie? Does that make them a cult? They obviously rhetorical question should give an expected answer of “no”, at least not without further id ens of an overly manipulative and controlling culture as it comes to things that you might deem as extra-biblical.

And just to be clear, I’m one of those guys who cannot stand dressing up and hate to wear a jacket and tie. We don’t have such a dress code at my church.

 

[ALAYMAN]

Tattoos?

Sure.

You don’t think tattoos (or music, art, theater, etc) represents some moral expression of the culture?

 

[AverageJoe]

You’re


You’re probably right but the point is, dresses only on women is not found in scripture. Therefore, if taught behind the pulpit that pastor is saying thus sayeth the Lord, now that church becomes a cult because the woman is now in disobedience to her Lord.

The pastor is obligated to preach and teach about modest dress. He can say what he believes those standards should be. Just because he preaches on the issue as he believes it should be doesn't mean he can enforce it 100 percent. It is ultimately up to every individual to decide on what they believe the standards for their family should be. I believe that you're straining at a gnat on this issue.

 

[Bruh]

If you go to a church that requires Sunday School teachers or choir members to dress up, instead of being a Pharisee or heretic (one who causes division) simply go to another church. If the church is abusive and shows no grace you shouldn’t go there anyway.

Yeah I agree with all that but that’s not what we’re talking about.

 

[Bruh]

It’s not “my church“, it’s the Lord’s church.. But to answer your question with a little more seriousness, I am the assistant pastor and don’t typically set such “standards”. I’m not sure about all of the other churches policies on women’s expectations when they teach children, but I know that some don’t hold onto that policy. Let’s run with your logic here though as to what defines a cult.

What if the church requires men who sing in the choir or take up the offering to wear a jacket and wear a tie? Does that make them a cult? They obviously rhetorical question should give an expected answer of “no”, at least not without further id ens of an overly manipulative and controlling culture as it comes to things that you might deem as extra-biblical.

And just to be clear, I’m one of those guys who cannot stand dressing up and hate to wear a jacket and tie. We don’t have such a dress code at my church.

It’s like I said in other post. Preached behind the pulpit would make it a cult.

 

[Bruh]

The pastor is obligated to preach and teach about modest dress. He can say what he believes those standards should be. Just because he preaches on the issue as he believes it should be doesn't mean he can enforce it 100 percent. It is ultimately up to every individual to decide on what they believe the standards for their family should be. I believe that you're straining at a gnat on this issue.

I mean I don’t see how he’s gonna pull it out of scripture? Unless he starts twisting and turning.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

How many IFB churches does a guy gotta go to to find one that’s not a cult?

I guess that depends on geographic and cultural context.
I our general area there are a good number of IFB churches that don’t seem to have that mentality.

In September, Lord willing, I am going to help an IFB church who lost a long term Pastor to retirement and things did not go well with the next Pastor. They’ve gone from 800 to 200 in 2 years. This church does not have the typical IFB extra biblical standards…although they do have a unique culture.