Interesting reformed church visit today, a report card.

[biscuit1953]

As I was saying...
I see I'm still batting .000.

“I'm only interested in heavy metal when it's me who's playing it. I suppose it's a bit like smelling your own farts.” John Entwistle

John Entwistle who was the bassist for The Guess Who and is widely considered to be one of the greatest rock bass players of all time, gave his honest assessment of heavy metal. This form of music is many times composed of death growls and musical tones that are very irritating to a large portion of the population. Can you imagine any Christian saying that playing Arise, My Soul, Arise or Wonderful Grace of Jesus or any other beloved hymn is like smelling their own farts when playing it?

Ephesians 5:19 tells us we are are to sing Psalms, hymns and spiritual songs, making melody in our hearts to the Lord, not listen to irritating sounds to bring down stress. The Enoch song Loner is as far away from a Christian spiritual song with a melody in it as one can get, and the very fact that you accused me of trying to make a song with pig like noises and words that need an interpreter to understand it “sound bad” shows more of your discernment than anything else.

R.C. Sproul seems to have much more in common with Frank Garlock of Bob Jones University when it comes to Christian music than would seem possible. Any church whether Reformed or Independent Baptist and anything in between should not allow divisive Christians bands or singers that is an irritation to many into the worship service any more than a church that does allow such music in cater to me or other new members who find their music offensive. In a church service let all things be done decently and in order (1 Corinthians 14:40).

 

[ALAYMAN]

"Irritating" is an opinion, not a moral quality.

But is it? The concept of doing thing everything decently and in order does come to my mind here. I don’t think that it could be said of that type of music that it has done, decorously, with nobility, and good form.

 

[biscuit1953]

"Irritating" is an opinion, not a moral quality.



I said no such thing, of course. "Discernment" at the very least should enable you to distinguish reality from fantasy, you know.

I said certain musical genres were unsuitable for corporate worship. I said nothing about intervals. And, like chords, I defy you to explain what moral distinction exists between a semitone and a perfect fifth.

That "irritating noise" in musical terms is called "dissonance," and if I were to ban it from a worship service, I'd have to fire even notable sacred music composers like Bach, whose most famous compositions make use of dissonant chords:

At the very beginning there's a loud C#dim7 chord played over a bass D, creating all sorts of acoustic anxiety, until it's resolved into a very satisfying Dmaj.

I suppose that according to my own opinion, as it is popularly (though wildly inaccurately) assumed, this "irritating sound," written by Bach to the glory of God alone, must now be banished from all church organs as unsuitable for divine worship.

LOL. I love it when people misrepresent my views so obviously poorly. Why don't they teach reading in these schools?

It is my understanding that Toccata and Fugue in D minor is generally not classified as sacred music, even though it was written for the pipe organ and composed by a devout Lutheran. Many even question whether Bach was the author of it. I have never heard it played in a church service, but nonetheless, I don’t see anything spiritual about it that exalts the Lord Jesus Christ. In fact Toccata and Fugue in D minor is considered dark, ominous and spooky music today.

 

[Ransom]

But is it? The concept of doing thing everything decently and in order does come to my mind here. I don’t think that it could be said of that type of music that it has done, decorously, with nobility, and good form.

"In the Garden" irritates me. Is it the genre of music?

 

[Ransom]

It is my understanding that Toccata and Fugue in D minor is generally not classified as sacred music, even though it was written for the pipe organ and composed by a devout Lutheran.

Fine. The ending of St. Matthew's Passion, or selections from multiple sacred cantatas. Bach loved dissonance. I just chose the most obvious example.

 

[Ransom]

Can you imagine any Christian saying that playing Arise, My Soul, Arise or Wonderful Grace of Jesus or any other beloved hymn is like smelling their own farts when playing it?

John Entwistle wasn't a Christian and he wasn't talking about hymns.

I can certainly see some people smelling their own farts when they think they sound informed about music, though.

 

[abcaines]

That is an excellent question. You aren't going to find a funeral dirge written in a major scale or a pep rally song in a minor scale.

Then, if you really want to blow your mind, do a search on musical scales and modes...

Most everything you're going to find that talks about the use of these modes and scales are going to be in agreement as though it was a universal constant, regardless of the source.

I'd love to dwell on this topic more but I need to get ready for work.

More on the subject...

Musical tastes are very culturally based... What sounds dissonant to us may make perfect sense to someone from a different culture. Take Indo/Asian tones and scales for example... Whereas, Western music is based on tones and semi-tones, Asian music uses quarter tones. BTW, a study of how Western culture adopted it's system of tones and semi-tones because the work of Pythagoras is fascinating especially when you get into the mathematics involved.

Cultural preferences or conditioning aside, I believe (especially in light of the aforementioned mathematical reference) that God designed tones to touch us in ways that other stimuli cannot. Listen to Stevie Ray Vaughn's intro to his cover of Texas Flood and see if those bending notes don't stir up something in you. Now, as to whether the use of these scales or tones being inherently sinful or holy, I don't have any biblical authority to say they are.

As an aside, my personal preference for scales is the Mixolydian scale from which much of popular, rock and blues is derived. I've loved a good bluesy melody all my life. I'm not much into synth-pop however.

 

[abcaines]

It is my understanding that Toccata and Fugue in D minor is generally not classified as sacred music, even though it was written for the pipe organ and composed by a devout Lutheran. Many even question whether Bach was the author of it. I have never heard it played in a church service, but nonetheless, I don’t see anything spiritual about it that exalts the Lord Jesus Christ. In fact Toccata and Fugue in D minor is considered dark, ominous and spooky music today.

IMO, Toccata and Fugue in D minor represents the pinnacle of musical composition. It's dark moody lines juxtaposed against soaring melodies takes you on a very satisfying ride. The melodies are tightly organized and like the Psalms, it explores the wide array of human emotion. Unlike the Psalms, Toccata and Fugue in D minor does so without words.

 

[Ransom]

But but but R. C. Sproul says it's an irritating noise.

 

[aleshanee]

Well, there's the rub. As I've said in the past, there are certain musical genres that wouldn't be suitable for worship. Since worship music is congregational, it needs to be not too technically complex, of a musical range suitable for the average person to sing, and quiet enough that we can hear each other. "Harder" genres like punk, industrial, and metal don't meet those criteria. (They're also fairly aggressive and angry, so incongruous with what should be a joyous and celebratory experience.)

But I don't personally mind metal, though it's not all my cup of tea (definitely not the more extreme forms like the aforementioned Enoch), and I have a few Christian metal CDs. They're fine as entertainment (most contemporary Christian music existing not for corporate worship, but as an alternative to worldly entertainment).

As for what is "God honoring," I don't get into debates about what mechanical sounds, tones, and chords "honour God." Without a particle of Scripture or theology to support them, it comes down to "well, I don't like it, so neither does God."

i have been having a hard time putting words together in the past few weeks..... .. and so couldn;t write exactly what i wanted to say about this... ... but your post says it pretty well.. and i think we are looking at it the same way... ....

in general and in a simple sense - i see a church congregation singing hymns together in praise of God as worship.. ... and people watching or listening to someone perform music... ..even hymns or gospel music.. as the congregation being entertained....

i know many will say it;s not that simple and that listening to a gospel singer can make them feel as if they are taking part in worship.. ..... .....i won;t argue with them but i will say it doesn;t have that effect me - even though i can and have been blessed by hearing another persons performance of christian music ...but does being blessed by anothers performance count as worship?...

as far as the type of music is concerned.... i like a wide variety of music types... . but there are many of those i would never bring into the church or care to hear being performed in church.. .... does that mean i;m simply following my own version of "if i don;t like it - God doesn;t like it either? ... possibly ... .but in each of those cases the music style has an effect on me not fit for church... ..

.. on a similar note - i;m a hula dancer... been studying hula and dancing it since i was in junior high.... and i love the hula - but the dance dance itself has pagan origins and is very physical/carnal in nature.... that;s the best way i can explain it at the moment... .

.... all i can say is i would never agree to having it in church.. ... .... in fact i got up and walked out of my former church when they brought in a "christian" hula dancer to ply his trade for the congregation.... this was only a few weeks before i left that church permanently over the gay weddings issue....

 

[aleshanee]

It is my understanding that Toccata and Fugue in D minor is generally not classified as sacred music, even though it was written for the pipe organ and composed by a devout Lutheran. Many even question whether Bach was the author of it. I have never heard it played in a church service, but nonetheless, I don’t see anything spiritual about it that exalts the Lord Jesus Christ. In fact Toccata and Fugue in D minor is considered dark, ominous and spooky music today.

mostly because of it being used in this early movie version of phantom of the opera... .
..nobody knows what inspired bach to write it - but i have heard people say
they could envision a thunder storm while listening to it......

 

[voicecrying]

... and people watching or listening to someone perform music... ..even hymns or gospel music.. as the congregation being entertained....

i know many will say it;s not that simple and that listening to a gospel singer can make them feel as if they are taking part in worship.. ..... .....i won;t argue with them but i will say it doesn;t have that effect me

I have felt the same for a very long time.