Thought process of church discipline...

[FSSL]

For starts: I believe in a church following Matthew in church discipline.

Ransom, you explained that your church does not allow a member to avoid discipline by letting the member resign/remove themselves from membership.

Is this a practice adopted from (now closed) G3 ministries? Is it common among Reformed Baptists? I am not familiar with this approach.

 

[subllibrm]

My issue is that the church often avoids being involved in the Matt 18 process to "keep the peace".

Which just bolsters my lament that we too often equate the absence of open conflict with evidence of peace.

 

[Ransom]

For starts: I believe in a church following Matthew in church discipline.

Ransom, you explained that your church does not allow a member to avoid discipline by letting the member resign/remove themselves from membership.

For the sake of accuracy, in double-checking my Bylaws, I discovered this was the case. My paper copy of the constitution says, "It is important that the restoration ministry involved in church discipline, once begun, can be completed. To prevent the expedient resignation by a Member who attempts to avoid church discipline procedures, a request to withdraw from Membership until the disciplinary proceedings are finished, unless otherwise agreed to by the Board."

But nothing in our present by-laws explicitly says a member under discipline may not be permitted to resign his membership. My paper copy is dated 2013, and they review them about every 10 years, so I believe it must have been changed about two years ago.

I maintain it's a reasonable safeguard against a member trying to get out of discipline, and I think it can be also reasonably inferred from the members' covenant, in which we agree to submit to the Bylaws regarding church discipline.

Is this a practice adopted from (now closed) G3 ministries? Is it common among Reformed Baptists? I am not familiar with this approach.

My paper Bylaws are older than G3 Ministries, so certainly no.

As for the Reformed Baptists, we are neither formally Reformed nor Baptist, so I can't comment on their regular practices. I checked the Web sites of a couple RB churches (a local one and Jarvis St. Baptist in Toronto) and couldn't find copies of their constitutions. So it's a mystery.

 

[Bruh]

For the sake of accuracy, in double-checking my Bylaws, I discovered this was the case. My paper copy of the constitution says, "It is important that the restoration ministry involved in church discipline, once begun, can be completed. To prevent the expedient resignation by a Member who attempts to avoid church discipline procedures, a request to withdraw from Membership until the disciplinary proceedings are finished, unless otherwise agreed to by the Board."

But nothing in our present by-laws explicitly says a member under discipline may not be permitted to resign his membership. My paper copy is dated 2013, and they review them about every 10 years, so I believe it must have been changed about two years ago.

I maintain it's a reasonable safeguard against a member trying to get out of discipline, and I think it can be also reasonably inferred from the members' covenant, in which we agree to submit to the Bylaws regarding church discipline.



My paper Bylaws are older than G3 Ministries, so certainly no.

As for the Reformed Baptists, we are neither formally Reformed nor Baptist, so I can't comment on their regular practices. I checked the Web sites of a couple RB churches (a local one and Jarvis St. Baptist in Toronto) and couldn't find copies of their constitutions. So it's a mystery.

Church discipline implies removing them from membership, correct?

So how is this person not allowing the church to discipline them if they leave and go to another church?

If they do this, would your church find out what church they moved to and contact the church?

If the person allows the church to discipline them, do they stand in front of the congregation and allow leadership to say something like, we are removing them from church membership you may now leave?

 

[ALAYMAN]

Church discipline implies removing them from membership, correct?

So how is this person not allowing the church to discipline them if they leave and go to another church?

If you discipline your child by grounding them but after supper they leave and go stay all night with a friend, what’s wrong with their choice?

 

[Bruh]

If you discipline your child by grounding them but after supper they leave and go stay all night with a friend, what’s wrong with their choice?

I understand what you’re saying, I guess. My relationship with my child is not the same as my relationship with the church.

My relationship with my children started in the womb. Everything I do is literally for my children. I can honestly say, there is no ego, no selfishness, nothing of that nature when it comes to my children. They know me in my home, intimately. It’s completely different. Yes, I love the children at church but not like I love my children. It’s a different kind of love.

 

[Bruh]

@ALAYMAN i once heard my pastor at the time say, how much should you obey your pastor? Well, how much do you expect your children to obey you?

I’m sorry but I cannot comprehend this.

 

[ALAYMAN]

I understand what you’re saying, I guess. My relationship with my child is not the same as my relationship with the church.

My relationship with my children started in the womb. Everything I do is literally for my children. I can honestly say, there is no ego, no selfishness, nothing of that nature when it comes to my children. They know me in my home, intimately. It’s completely different. Yes, I love the children at church but not like I love my children. It’s a different kind of love.

Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭18‬:‭18

Jesus doesn’t seem to equivocate on the trust of authority He vests in His church.

 

[ALAYMAN]

@ALAYMAN i once heard my pastor at the time say, how much should you obey your pastor? Well, how much do you expect your children to obey you?

I’m sorry but I cannot comprehend this.

Obey them that have rule over you, they watch for your souls. Children obey your parents in the Lord. “Follow me as I follow Christ”. All these come to mind.

 

[Bruh]

Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭18‬:‭18

Jesus doesn’t seem to equivocate on the trust of authority He vests in His church.

Doesn’t everything come down to trust?

I trust by faith that God will do what he says.

 

[ALAYMAN]

Doesn’t everything come down to trust?

I trust by faith that God will do what he says.

How does that understanding apply to church discipline, and jetting off to another church to avoid the counsel of the process?

 

[Bruh]

Obey them that have rule over you, they watch for your souls. Children obey your parents in the Lord. “Follow me as I follow Christ”. All these come to mind.

I guess for me it comes down to trust. That man will need to prove himself to me before I trust him on that level.

 

[Bruh]

How does that understanding apply to church discipline, and jetting off to another church to avoid the counsel of the process?

You said, If you discipline your child by grounding them but after supper they leave and go stay all night with a friend, what’s wrong with their choice?

This has never happened because I believe they trust me 100%

My children trust me because I’ve not only proven to them that I have their unwavering best interests in mind but we have a relationship that has been built their entire life within our home intimately.

They know I’m only human and they’ve definitely have seen my humanity but when it comes to their entire being they trust me.

 

[ALAYMAN]

I guess for me it comes down to trust. That man will need to prove himself to me before I trust him on that level.

That is PRECISELY what is in view in the Hebrews 13:17 passage. The “obey” command relates directly to the fact that the man of God who is ministering to the flock has demonstrated worthiness to be trusted in a way that provides an example to follow.

When it comes to discipline, most people don’t want such accountability, so they mosey on to the next church. Of course that doesn’t excuse the overbearing authoritarian tyrant who lords over the flock. Having said that, if a person follows the Biblical process and disagrees with the church’s conclusion they can go to another church in clean conscience that they abided by the Scriptures.

 

[Bruh]

That is PRECISELY what is in view in the Hebrews 13:17 passage. The “obey” command relates directly to the fact that the man of God who is ministering to the flock has demonstrated worthiness to be trusted in a way that provides an example to follow.

When it comes to discipline, most people don’t want such accountability, so they mosey on to the next church. Of course that doesn’t excuse the overbearing authoritarian tyrant who lords over the flock. Having said that, if a person follows the Biblical process and disagrees with the church’s conclusion they can go to another church in clean conscience that they abided by the Scriptures.

“demonstrated worthiness to be trusted”

I agree with this. You may think what I’m about to say is nitpicking but for me trust can be broken if the pastor can be asked a question but has two different answers depending on who’s in front of him.

I’d say this, the church we attend now, if the pastor comes to me with a concern in my life, I can take it and would probably make changes.

 

[ALAYMAN]

“demonstrated worthiness to be trusted”

I agree with this. You may think what I’m about to say is nitpicking but for me trust can be broken if the pastor can be asked a question but has two different answers depending on who’s in front of him.

I’d say this, the church we attend now, if the pastor comes to me with a concern in my life, I can take it and would probably make changes.

That’s a bit too vague to address without more details. While I agree that a pastor should not show partiality, two different people in a given scenario might rightly be given two different courses of action to take, based upon their level of Christian development and maturity, for instance.

 

[Ransom]

Church discipline implies removing them from membership, correct?

Not necessarily. Suspension is also an option. The task of the elders is to decide whether either suspension or removal is warranted.

So how is this person not allowing the church to discipline them if they leave and go to another church?

Members agree to submit to the disciplinary process. Is walking away submitting to the disciplinary process?

If they do this, would your church find out what church they moved to and contact the church?

And they would do that how? A notice in the social pages? There are around 150 Protestant churches in Ottawa (and another 100 or so Roman Catholic or Orthodox).

If the person allows the church to discipline them, do they stand in front of the congregation and allow leadership to say something like, we are removing them from church membership you may now leave?

A few years back they dismissed a pastor for some white-collar misconduct; I don't remember the details. It was announced in the service, which is biblical: "As for those [elders] who persist in sin, rebuke them in the presence of all, so that the rest may stand in fear" (1 Tim. 5:20). I know little of what goes on with ordinary members, but the process is mostly confidential, and I don't recall ever hearing of someone being publicly expelled, so I would guess the vast majority of cases are handled quietly. "Tell it to the church" (Matt. 18:17) is the last resort.

 

[Ekklesian]

Hmmm. A catholic church? (notice the lowercase c.)