Good Thoughts

[ALAYMAN]

I recently read the Shelby Foote civil war history. One of the things that stood out to me was the prayer life of several of the men on both sides. Their love and devotion for God, as well as their deep conviction that they were fighting for His righteous cause.

I wonder if this might cause you to have a little more contemplated thought about those that pray for both Donald Trump, and Joe Biden, for instance, all the while, abiding by their conscience to preserve this great Union and its freedoms from being corrupted by socialism and other harmful effects of the Democratic Party that has become unhinged.

I grew up in a Union home, valuing hard work and all of the things that a blue collar ideology typically champion. The progressive movement, which is in full swing now, not merely a talking point in abstraction, has completely changed that as an option. I work with a farmer (who is a lifelong democrat in a family that has actively participated in the civic process of voting and serving) who I’ve known for over 30 years, and he echoes what many moderate Democrats have said, “I didn’t leave my party, my party left me.”

So when we conservative and center-right moderates “hold our nose” and vote for imperfect candidates like Trump, it’s not without prayer that God will heal our land and give us more worthy candidates. It is, however, with the understanding that our country’s populace and the people who they elect are a reflection of a diverse group of people and ideologies.

And at the end of all that, those of us who are not blinded by the delusion that government is going to offer some utopian ideal, nor will it yield personal salvation for anybody, we nonetheless participate in the republic that is given to us by a sovereign God, who still remains on the throne, despite all of Trump’s, Clintons, Nixon’s, or Biden’s foibles.

 

[subllibrm]

I wonder if this might cause you to have a little more contemplated thought about those that pray for both Donald Trump, and Joe Biden, for instance, all the while, abiding by their conscience to preserve this great Union and its freedoms from being corrupted by socialism and other harmful effects of the Democratic Party that has become unhinged.

I grew up in a Union home, valuing hard work and all of the things that a blue collar ideology typically champion. The progressive movement, which is in full swing now, not merely a talking point in abstraction, has completely changed that as an option. I work with a farmer (who is a lifelong democrat in a family that has actively participated in the civic process of voting and serving) who I’ve known for over 30 years, and he echoes what many moderate Democrats have said, “I didn’t leave my party, my party left me.”

So when we conservative and center-right moderates “hold our nose” and vote for imperfect candidates like Trump, it’s not without prayer that God will heal our land and give us more worthy candidates. It is, however, with the understanding that our country’s populace and the people who they elect are a reflection of a diverse group of people and ideologies.

And at the end of all that, those of us who are not blinded by the delusion that government is going to offer some utopian ideal, nor will it yield personal salvation for anybody, we nonetheless participate in the republic that is given to us by a sovereign God, who still remains on the throne, despite all of Trump’s, Clintons, Nixon’s, or Biden’s foibles.

I grew up in a very similar situation.

Your points are all good and solid. But you have missed the primary concern that I have shared repeatedly. It's possible to reach the conclusions that you have, vote for a candidate who you believe is the best choice and not participate in the ugliness surrounding it all. That's what casts a shadow upon the church and her reputation before the lost world we are charged with reaching. Should we vote? Absolutely and I have never said otherwise. Will we face situations where the options are less than ideal? Again yes. Should Christians participate in the process? Without a doubt. But it needs to be done as ambassadors of the Kingdom of God. We do not approach the political process with the spirit of grace and humility, but speak and act with the same blood sport, conquer at all costs of the world. And if we have to sell our birthright for political gain we will. Enthusiastically yoking ourselves to ungodly people, philosophy and vocabulary That is a shame on the name of Christ.

 

[ALAYMAN]

I grew up in a very similar situation.

Your points are all good and solid. But you have missed the primary concern that I have shared repeatedly. It's possible to reach the conclusions that you have, vote for a candidate who you believe is the best choice and not participate in the ugliness surrounding it all. That's what casts a shadow upon the church and her reputation before the lost world we are charged with reaching. Should we vote? Absolutely and I have never said otherwise. Will we face situations where the options are less than ideal? Again yes. Should Christians participate in the process? Without a doubt. But it needs to be done as ambassadors of the Kingdom of God. We do not approach the political process with the spirit of grace and humility, but speak and act with the same blood sport, conquer at all costs of the world. And if we have to sell our birthright for political gain we will. Enthusiastically yoking ourselves to ungodly people, philosophy and vocabulary That is a shame on the name of Christ.

I can agree with you on the vast majority of what you just said that we ought to approach the process of politics in the same way as we ought in any other arena of our exchanges and participation. And in the process, as TarHeel and many others have done on here, we can push back on Trump‘s boorish behavior.

Where I would make one small quibble is how you flesh out the idea that people “enthusiastically yolk to ungodly people”. I can remember when I was a young budding fundamentalist and such militant separatist language (“be not unequal yoked”) would used to tell me that I shouldn’t go to Pizza Hut because of the wicked rock ‘n’ roll music and booze that was being sold.

On a very fleeting and temporary basis, I bought into that understanding of separation. I won’t make that mistake again and let somebody else be a tyrant over my informed and obedient conscience, whether in a church, or in the political realm. While there is a point in which I would separate from the political process, for instance, if both parties tied their selves to a pro abortion stance I would refrain from voting altogether, I won’t be guilted by the hypocrisy of the left (not saying that that is your stance) who is so worried about Trump mean tweeting but advocate for mutilation and murdering of pre-born children (among other putrid and ungodly wickedness).

 

[subllibrm]

I can agree with you on the vast majority of what you just said that we ought to approach the process of politics in the same way as we ought in any other arena of our exchanges and participation. And in the process, as TarHeel and many others have done on here, we can push back on Trump‘s boorish behavior.

Where I would make one small quibble is how you flesh out the idea that people “enthusiastically yolk to ungodly people”. I can remember when I was a young budding fundamentalist and such militant separatist language (“be not unequal yoked”) would used to tell me that I shouldn’t go to Pizza Hut because of the wicked rock ‘n’ roll music and booze that was being sold.

On a very fleeting and temporary basis, I bought into that understanding of separation. I won’t make that mistake again and let somebody else be a tyrant over my informed and obedient conscience, whether in a church, or in the political realm. While there is a point in which I would separate from the political process, for instance, if both parties tied their selves to a pro abortion stance I would refrain from voting altogether, I won’t be guilted by the hypocrisy of the left (not saying that that is your stance) who is so worried about Trump mean tweeting but advocate for mutilation and murdering of pre-born children (among other putrid and ungodly wickedness).

Still have no problem with what you say here. I would ask you if you are bothered by the brethren who do choose to adopt the ugly rhetoric of the current political climate? It's is possible and reasonable for a believer to vote for a candidate who displays little if any respect for or grace towards their opponents (this is where the holding of the nose comes in). It is an entirely different matter when the same believer adopts the language and attitude of said candidate. And yes, it happens here (and elsewhere, including in the church) regularly. Using your Pizza Hut example, ordering a pizza from them doesn't necessarily yoke you to the beer, buying the beer does. When a believer adopts the attitude and vocabulary of the mean tweets they have yoked themselves to the source.