3 distinct eternal consciousnesses

Steven Avery

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Hi,

A simple question for those who like to see themselves as "Trintiarian" (a very big tent).

Do you believe that God exists in:

"3 distinct eternal consciousnesses" ?


Thanks for your answers.

All sincere answers respected, yes, no, why yes, why no, I dunno-hadn't-thought-about-it, even category or word questions about the question.

====================================

And I tried to get some answers before, maybe a thread will help.  My own answer is no, but I really want to hear from those who think in "Trinity" or "God in three persons".  This is about as straightforward a question that exists about "Trinity" and if it can not be answered, I would contend that the word Trinity simply has no meaning at all.

consciousnesses == minds 

Yours in Jesus,
Steven
 
LOL.... Avery has never given a Yes or NO answer in his entire life.... Yet, he demands one here.

Avery.... stop for a minute and think...... would you?

The word "distinct" implies some form of uniqueness. Hence, the very core of the teaching of the unique, yet Co-Equal, Co-Eternal, Co-Powerful Trinity. God......

You're nothing more than a heretic that believes in "oneness" in Jesus Christ.

By the way.... consciousnesses doesn't necessarily equal "mind"



 
Steven Avery said:
Hi,

A simple question for those who like to see themselves as "Trintiarian" (a very big tent).

Do you believe that God exists in:

"3 distinct eternal consciousnesses" ?


Thanks for your answers.

All sincere answers respected, yes, no, why yes, why no, I dunno-hadn't-thought-about-it, even category or word questions about the question.

====================================

And I tried to get some answers before, maybe a thread will help.  My own answer is no, but I really want to hear from those who think in "Trinity" or "God in three persons".  This is about as straightforward a question that exists about "Trinity" and if it can not be answered, I would contend that the word Trinity simply has no meaning at all.

consciousnesses == minds 

Yours in Jesus,
Steven

The Bible teaches that God exists as the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost or Spirit. Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Matthew 3:16-17 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. 1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

We know that there is only one God Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: 1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. and that the one God has three persons (Father, Son and Holy Spirit).

The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are each God and they are distinct. Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: John 9:35-38 Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God? He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him? And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee. And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him. Acts 5:3-4 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God. Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

The Spirit speaks of the Son who came to do the Will of the Father which seems to indicate 3 distinct consciousness, but I’m drawing a conclusion. John 16:13-14 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. John 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

 
I cannot draw that conclusion.  No.  He manifested himself to us in three persons, for our sake, that we may understand Him better.  He is one LORD. 
"I and my Father are one."
"Before Abraham was, I AM."
These three are one....etc.

Anishinabe

 
I will be the first one to step up and confess that I don't comprehend everything about the Trinity in my human understanding.  I do know that this "tri-unity" is taught in scripture.  I also know that the scriptures teach that Jesus is God manifest in the flesh.  Every group that I know of that denies the Trinity also denies the deity of Christ.  They are anti-christ.  These groups include the Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, Christian Science, Armstrongism, etc, etc, etc.  To hold an unorthodox view of the Trinity is very dangerous because it normally involves the denial of who Jesus Christ is.  Orthodox Christianity is based upon a proper view of the Person and work of Jesus Christ (2 John).  That is about all I can say.  I would be interested if Steven Avery would agree with the late Dr. Henry Morris' description of the Trinity as found in his notes on Romans 1:20.

Romans 1:20 – The “Godhead” has always been understood by Christian theologians to refer to the divine Trinity. - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, one God manifest in three Persons.  The word itself does not mean “trinity,” but simply “Godhood” - that is, the nature of God, God as He has revealed Himself.  But that is the point;  He has revealed Himself as a triune God.  He is one God (De 6:4; Jam 2:19), not as the inexpressible, unapproachable unitary God of the Muslims, but as an invisible, omnipresent Father and as visible, approachable Son, and also as indwelling, guiding Spirit.  This remarkable structure of God, like His eternal power, is clearly reflected in His physical creation, which could almost be said to be a model of the Godhead.  That is, the created universe is actually a tri-universe of space, matter, and time, with  each permeating and representing the whole.

However, the universe is not partly composed of space, partly of matter, partly of time (like, for example, the three sides of a triangle).  A trinity is not a trio or a triad, but a tri-unity, with all three composing the whole, yet all three required to make the whole universe.  Thus the universe is all space, all time, and all matter (including energy as a form of matter); in fact, scientists speak of it as a space-matter-time continuum.  Furthermore, note the parallels between the tri-universe and the divine Trinity in terms of the logical order of the three components.  Space (like the Father) is the invisible, omnipresent background of everything.  Matter (like the Son) reveals the universe (like the Godhead) in visible, understandable form.  Time (like the Spirit) is the entity by which the universe (like the Godhead) becomes applicable and understandable in events and experience.  But that is not all.  Space is a tri-unity composed of three dimensions, with each dimension permeating all space.  The reality of any portion of space is obtained by multiplying the three dimensions together (the mathematics of the Trinity” is not 1+1+1 =1, but rather 1 x 1 x 1 = 1).  Further, space is identified in one dimension, seen in the second dimension, experienced in the third dimension.  Similarly, time is future, present, and past.  The future is the unseen source of time, seen moment-by-moment in the present, experienced and understood in the past.  Finally, matter is unseen, omnipresent energy, manifesting itself in various forms of measurable motion, then experienced in the corresponding phenomena.  For example, light energy generates light waves which are experienced in the seeing of light.  Sound energy generates sound waves which we experience when we hear sound.

Thus the physical universe is a great “Trinity of trinities,” with the inner relationships of each element beautifully modeling the relationships of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.  All of this does not prove that God is a Trinity, but it certainly is a remarkable fact.  It is an amazing effect that can be explained on the assumption that God is a triune God, and has made His creation to reflect Himself, but it is a very hard to explain in any other way.  (The late Dr. Henry Morris)

 
biscuit1953 said:
I will be the first one to step up and confess that I don't comprehend everything about the Trinity in my human understanding.  I do know that this "tri-unity" is taught in scripture.  I also know that the scriptures teach that Jesus is God manifest in the flesh.  Every group that I know of that denies the Trinity also denies the deity of Christ.  They are anti-christ.  These groups include the Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, Christian Science, Armstrongism, etc, etc, etc.  To hold an unorthodox view of the Trinity is very dangerous because it normally involves the denial of who Jesus Christ is.  Orthodox Christianity is based upon a proper view of the Person and work of Jesus Christ (2 John).  That is about all I can say.  I would be interested if Steven Avery would agree with the late Dr. Henry Morris' description of the Trinity as found in his notes on Romans 1:20.

Romans 1:20 – The “Godhead” has always been understood by Christian theologians to refer to the divine Trinity. - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, one God manifest in three Persons.  The word itself does not mean “trinity,” but simply “Godhood” - that is, the nature of God, God as He has revealed Himself.  But that is the point;  He has revealed Himself as a triune God.  He is one God (De 6:4; Jam 2:19), not as the inexpressible, unapproachable unitary God of the Muslims, but as an invisible, omnipresent Father and as visible, approachable Son, and also as indwelling, guiding Spirit.  This remarkable structure of God, like His eternal power, is clearly reflected in His physical creation, which could almost be said to be a model of the Godhead.  That is, the created universe is actually a tri-universe of space, matter, and time, with  each permeating and representing the whole.

However, the universe is not partly composed of space, partly of matter, partly of time (like, for example, the three sides of a triangle).  A trinity is not a trio or a triad, but a tri-unity, with all three composing the whole, yet all three required to make the whole universe.  Thus the universe is all space, all time, and all matter (including energy as a form of matter); in fact, scientists speak of it as a space-matter-time continuum.  Furthermore, note the parallels between the tri-universe and the divine Trinity in terms of the logical order of the three components.  Space (like the Father) is the invisible, omnipresent background of everything.  Matter (like the Son) reveals the universe (like the Godhead) in visible, understandable form.  Time (like the Spirit) is the entity by which the universe (like the Godhead) becomes applicable and understandable in events and experience.  But that is not all.  Space is a tri-unity composed of three dimensions, with each dimension permeating all space.  The reality of any portion of space is obtained by multiplying the three dimensions together (the mathematics of the Trinity” is not 1+1+1 =1, but rather 1 x 1 x 1 = 1).  Further, space is identified in one dimension, seen in the second dimension, experienced in the third dimension.  Similarly, time is future, present, and past.  The future is the unseen source of time, seen moment-by-moment in the present, experienced and understood in the past.  Finally, matter is unseen, omnipresent energy, manifesting itself in various forms of measurable motion, then experienced in the corresponding phenomena.  For example, light energy generates light waves which are experienced in the seeing of light.  Sound energy generates sound waves which we experience when we hear sound.

Thus the physical universe is a great “Trinity of trinities,” with the inner relationships of each element beautifully modeling the relationships of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.  All of this does not prove that God is a Trinity, but it certainly is a remarkable fact.  It is an amazing effect that can be explained on the assumption that God is a triune God, and has made His creation to reflect Himself, but it is a very hard to explain in any other way.  (The late Dr. Henry Morris)


"The “Godhead” has always been understood by Christian theologians to refer to the divine Trinity. - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, one God manifest in three Persons."

Hmmmm....seems EXACTLY what I said....and what Steve laughs at.
 
Steven Avery said:
Do you believe that God exists in:
"3 distinct eternal consciousnesses" ?

Impossible to answer given the information we have.  Can you tell us:

[list type=decimal]
[*]your source for the phrase, "3 distinct eternal consciousnesses"; and
[*]how "consciousness" is to be understood in that phrase
[/list]

Since you are known to equivocate and to rely on dodgy authorities, let's see you put your cards on the table before we show ours.
 
prophet said:
I cannot draw that conclusion.  No.  He manifested himself to us in three persons, for our sake, that we may understand Him better.  He is one LORD. 
"I and my Father are one."
"Before Abraham was, I AM."
These three are one....etc.

Anishinabe

Welcome to Oneness.....

Be sure to share such beliefs with the rest of your IFB friends.
 
christundivided said:
prophet said:
I cannot draw that conclusion.  No.  He manifested himself to us in three persons, for our sake, that we may understand Him better.  He is one LORD. 
"I and my Father are one."
"Before Abraham was, I AM."
These three are one....etc.

Anishinabe

Welcome to Oneness.....

Be sure to share such beliefs with the rest of your IFB friends.
I may have a couple of IFB friends, but they won't claim me.  Neither would the oneness crasimaniacs.  Neither would any orthodoxy.  Neither would any Protestant Denom.  Neither would any cults.  Only those who stand fast in liberty can stomach me.

Anishinabe
 
[quote author=prophet]I may have a couple of IFB friends, but they won't claim me.  Neither would the oneness crasimaniacs.  Neither would any orthodoxy.  Neither would any Protestant Denom.  Neither would any cults.  Only those who stand fast in liberty can stomach me.[/quote]

Well, at least you epitomize greatness in your own mind...
 
rsc2a said:
[quote author=prophet]I may have a couple of IFB friends, but they won't claim me.  Neither would the oneness crasimaniacs.  Neither would any orthodoxy.  Neither would any Protestant Denom.  Neither would any cults.  Only those who stand fast in liberty can stomach me.

Well, at least you epitomize greatness in your own mind...
[/quote]You can mock me, if it makes you feel better.  I realized, when I put my beliefs out, that others would cherry-pick criticize it.
I was speaking from experience, when I said that these won't accept me.  It is neither pride nor humility speaking, just experience.  What do i have to gain from it?  Nobody cares what you think, if you don't go along with the group.

Anishinabe

 
Hi,

Ransom said:
[list type=decimal]
[*]your source for the phrase, "3 distinct eternal consciousnesses"; and
[*]how "consciousness" is to be understood in that phrase
[/list]
The first time I heard the phrase was Hank Hanegraaff on the radio, and I was a little taken aback.  You can find similar in many places. Consciousness == mind. 

e.g. There is a doctrine about a covenant of agreement (counsel of eternal redemption) between the three members of the trinity where it was decided which one of the three would incarnate.  This would be an example of the three distinct eternal consciousnesses in action, if you accepted that doctrine. 

Essentially "3 distinct eternal consciousnesses" reflects the idea of the "Social Trinity".

Yours in Jesus,
Steven Avery
 
Hi,

So far, the attempts to actually work with the question, in addition to Scott's request for clarification.


T-Bone said:

Mathew Ward said:
The Spirit speaks of the Son who came to do the Will of the Father which seems to indicate 3 distinct consciousness, but I’m drawing a conclusion.

Understood.  One way of seeing the text. And it does leave open the eternal aspect.

prophet said:
I cannot draw that conclusion.  No.  He manifested himself to us in three persons, for our sake, that we may understand Him better.  He is one LORD.  ... Anishinabe

The Rogue Tomato said:

Thanks to those who have given an answer. 

Yours in Jesus,
Steven Avery
 
The Trinity does not consist of three distinct "minds."

Therefore, like all of your blather, this is not an orthodox statement.
 
Steven Avery said:
Essentially "3 distinct eternal consciousnesses" reflects the idea of the "Social Trinity".
Yours in Jesus,
Steven Avery

Nope. Holding to 3 distinct eternal consciousnesses does not mean a person is essentially reflecting a Social Trinitarian theology.

Steven Avery said:
There is a doctrine about a covenant of agreement (counsel of eternal redemption) between the three members of the trinity where it was decided which one of the three would incarnate.  This would be an example of the three distinct eternal consciousnesses in action, if you accepted that doctrine.

Why do you have difficulty with John 6:37? "All that the Father gives to me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.”
 
Hi,

FSSL said:
Nope. Holding to 3 distinct eternal consciousnesses does not mean a person is essentially reflecting a Social Trinitarian theology.
The Social Trinity view is the major perspective that actively holds to 3 distinct eternal consciousnesses.  There can some who hold that view of 3dec who do not consider themselves as Social Trinitarians.

You might be one of them.

e.g. A person could hold to the covenant of agreement and perhaps have some differences with the Social Trinity, since the term itself is not precisely defined.

Trinity does not have an agreed upon definition, sub-categories like economic trinity and social trinity remain very malleable as well.

Yours in Jesus,
Steven
 
Steven Avery said:
The Social Trinity view is the major perspective that actively holds to 3 distinct eternal consciousnesses.  There can some who hold that view of 3dec who do not consider themselves as Social Trinitarians.


Since the Social Trinitarianism movement is rather new, very few journal articles address it and it is missing from standard evangelical theologies, how do you call it "the major perspective?"

What data suggests this?

You might be one of them.

You might be an Unitarian. See how that works?

Trinity does not have an agreed upon definition, sub-categories like economic trinity and social trinity remain very malleable as well.

No. It is quite clear what Trinity means. The creeds have stood the test of time. Even the "Shield of the Trinity" illustration of the triangle (PappaBear's satanic pentagram), has been with us for centuries (since 1200s)

Nicene (325 ad)
The Definition of Chalcedon (A.D. 451)
Athanasian Creed (ca. A.D. 500)
Second Council of Constantinople (A.D. 533)
Eleventh Council of Toledo (675 AD)
... and on and on...

The agreement is quite remarkable in its historical defense. You are attempting to undermine Trinitarians on this forum. A couple of KJVOs have fallen for your thinking. For that reason alone, it is really quite interesting having you around here. It demonstrates that a viewpoint that is given to a myth about Scripture typically leads one directly into denying the nature of God Himself! I have seen this over and over again and it is happening right before our eyes.

I especially like the Second Council of Constantinople's clear, unequivocal statement: " If anyone does not confess that the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are one nature or essence, one power or authority, worshiped as a trinity of the same essence, one deity in three hypostases or persons, let him be anathema."
 
Steven Avery said:
A simple question for those who like to see themselves as "Trintiarian" (a very big tent).

Do you believe that God exists in:

"3 distinct eternal consciousnesses" ?


I do.  For me, the key word is "eternal."  As per John 1:1, I believe the Word predates his manifestation by human birth, and was before "the beginning."  Hebrews 13:8 is pretty plain about the eternality of the Son. 

Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

The Bible teaches that the Christ was manifested in John 1:14, He was not generated at that time.  In Jesus' great High Priestly prayer in John 17, He said, "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was."

As to the distinctions of the Godhead, 1Cor 12:4-6 is the passage of prime mention.  This passage shows their different roles, yet functioning together toward a unified purpose.

4  Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5  And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6  And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.


So, it is the Spirit that actually gives the gifts, the Lord Jesus Who is the Architect administering the gifts, and the Father God Who is the Operational Head commissioning the gifts.

That the Son has a distinct consciousness from the Father is best shown by the Gethsemane Prayer.

Luke 22:42  Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
Matt. 26:39  And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
Mark 14:36  And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.

This request, recorded by all three of the synoptic writers, makes a distinction between what Christ willed and what the Father willed.  Christ fulfilled His role as Administrator, and submitted to the will of the Father Whose role as Operational Head gave Him the lead.  Even so, it demonstrates that Christ had a distinct will of His own.  He was not absent of any difference, just submissive in His role.

There is another distinction demonstrated by Christ's teaching regarding the Blasphemy of the Holy Ghost.

Matt 12:32  And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Mark 3:28, 29  Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

Luke 12:10  And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.


Again, repeated in all three synoptics, there is a distinct difference between how blasphemy against the other members of the Godhead is treated and that against the Holy Ghost.  Most importantly, it demonstrates a definite distinction between blaspheming God the Son, and blaspheming God the Holy Ghost.

I will give one final example of Biblical distinction in this post.  That is the day and hour of Christ's coming.

Mark 13:32  But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

There is a lot of discussion among Bible commentators across the centuries regarding this distinctive different in knowing.  Many have attempted to reconcile it the same as with Christ's growth in Luke 2:52 by relegating this lack of knowledge of what the Father knows to only the "human side" of Christ.  But if successful, how then is Christ "fully human"?  I think the best answer for those of us who hold a Trinitarian view is seeing it within the distinctive role.  It is not required to know the day nor the hour in order to fulfill Christ's administrative role.  In Acts 1:7, the LORD specifically says of this that it is something that the "Father hath put in his own power."  But however you deal with it, the Bible very definitely makes a distinction here over what the Father knows, and what the Son, Who is just as fully God, does NOT know. 

I look forward to your response.  I appreciate your patience in dealing with these on this board, and have appreciated reading your posts.  *Hat tip </:eek:)



 
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