.........

[aleshanee]

 

[T-Bone]

Sorry for your loss...but I do believe you did the right thing and what you had to do. As far as Hawaii's law about forcing churches to do anything, if I was there I would push that issue and make them take me to court. Hawaiian law does not triumph the Constitution.

 

[T-Bone]

Sorry for your loss...but I do believe you did the right thing and what you had to do. As far as Hawaii's law about forcing churches to do anything, if I was there I would push that issue and make them take me to court. Hawaiian law does not triumph the Constitution.

the fights not over yet.... it is as far as my former church is concerned..... but other churches are trying to fight this through the courts.... unfortunately they get no support from the current president .. or his administration..... and the way anti discrimination laws and equal access laws are written... combined with this new legislation....  it;s very hard to fight......

in fact...... and bibleburner will really love this one..... the only church not directly effected by this legislation... yet.... is the catholic church who has a long tradition of not only refusing to marry non-members but of also requiring evidence of faith and conversion in new members that wish to be married in the church..... .... but even they have been told they might not be immune from lawsuits by gay and lesbian groups if they own and maintain a facility... (like a church or cathederal).. that gays think would be a perfect sight to host their mockery of a christian wedding......

We must stay in the fight..and pray for our churches who are now on the front line!

 

[Just John]

I agree with and appreciate your stand on this in the church I know you enjoyed for so long. It's amazing, in some ways, how fast the gay marriage has rolled through the states against the will of the electorate.

 

[lnf]

I believe that we will be seeing more and more of this.  And aleshanee tells a cautionary tale...a church that rents out its facilities just might be opening a door they'll wish they could close in the not too distant future. 

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

I remember when people mocked those who said accepting gay marriage was a slippery slope to forcing churches to perform gay marriages.  It was considered ridiculous and paranoid. 

This is only one tiny step away from that "paranoid" prediction. 

 

[ChuckBob]

With the current make up of the SCOTUS  don't think the state regs as to forcing churches would pass 1st Amend muster.

Warrior Princess, sometimes we are called to a place or a job for a season. I think that is what has happened in your case. That doesn't make the changes any less painful but I hope it helps. When my spirit is troubled the only place I can find solace s the wilderness. I think we may share that trait. Get out for a bit you'll feel better.


ChuckBob

 

[Fresh Air]

Aleshanee, good on you.

...and here's to prayer that American Christianity will develop the spine it so desperately needs to face what is coming down the pike.

 

[JrChurch]

As we watch this world wax worse and worse, it is almost unreal to realize it is unfolding before our eyes. 

Aleshanee, I am sorry that the church you have attended for two decades has turned its back on the truth.

http://americanthinker.com/blog/2014/05/co_commission_rules_cake_baker_must_serve_gay_couples.html

 

[Patebald]

Man... this is troubling. I'm so very proud of you for taking a moral stand.

This issue coming to a church near you...

 

[HereIStand]

God bless you, Aleshanee.

My thinking (or perhaps hoping) is that the gay community is overreaching. Recent events, such as the forcing out of Mozilla CEO Brendan Eich, seem to be sparking a backlash from the general public.

 

[T-Bone]

I started a thread with an article about this in Hawaii ...we'll worth the read...church, it's time to stand!

 

[Smellin Coffee]

Government should NOT interfere against the church's choices nor should it go against the voted ideas of the majority vote of the citizens.

 

[ALAYMAN]

I remember when people mocked those who said accepting gay marriage was a slippery slope to forcing churches to perform gay marriages.  It was considered ridiculous and paranoid. 

This is only one tiny step away from that "paranoid" prediction.

A similar prediction was made by yours truly, with a modest amount of kickback from forum folk (http://www.fundamentalforums.org/the-fighting-forum/how-long-before-gay-hate-speech-criminalization-becomes-a-reality/msg60872/#msg60872).


aleshanee, so sorry to hear that you had to leave the church you loved for so long.  May the Lord lead you as you seek to find a Biblical assembly to worship Him in.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

I remember when people mocked those who said accepting gay marriage was a slippery slope to forcing churches to perform gay marriages.  It was considered ridiculous and paranoid. 

This is only one tiny step away from that "paranoid" prediction.

A similar prediction was made by yours truly, with a modest amount of kickback from forum folk (http://www.fundamentalforums.org/the-fighting-forum/how-long-before-gay-hate-speech-criminalization-becomes-a-reality/msg60872/#msg60872).


aleshanee, so sorry to hear that you had to leave the church you loved for so long.  May the Lord lead you as you seek to find a Biblical assembly to worship Him in.

Not saying aleshanee is wrong because she is there. Looking at news things, the only thing I see is that churches cannot discriminate against gays concerning the use of facilities, such as coffee shops or bookstores. I'm thinking that perhaps the church itself made the decision. So this might or might not be a situation where the government is MANDATING the marrying of gays in their facilities. I've not found a news report yet that confirms that is what is being mandated.

If you have an actual news link to the contrary, I would love to read more into it.

 

[ALAYMAN]

I remember when people mocked those who said accepting gay marriage was a slippery slope to forcing churches to perform gay marriages.  It was considered ridiculous and paranoid. 

This is only one tiny step away from that "paranoid" prediction.

A similar prediction was made by yours truly, with a modest amount of kickback from forum folk (http://www.fundamentalforums.org/the-fighting-forum/how-long-before-gay-hate-speech-criminalization-becomes-a-reality/msg60872/#msg60872).


aleshanee, so sorry to hear that you had to leave the church you loved for so long.  May the Lord lead you as you seek to find a Biblical assembly to worship Him in.

Not saying aleshanee is wrong because she is there. Looking at news things, the only thing I see is that churches cannot discriminate against gays concerning the use of facilities, such as coffee shops or bookstores. I'm thinking that perhaps the church itself made the decision. So this might or might not be a situation where the government is MANDATING the marrying of gays in their facilities. I've not found a news report yet that confirms that is what is being mandated.

If you have an actual news link to the contrary, I would love to read more into it.

I trust her testimony, and my mind is more than convinced by a variety of factors that the secular trajectory of our country is headed towards persecution for Christians.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

I remember when people mocked those who said accepting gay marriage was a slippery slope to forcing churches to perform gay marriages.  It was considered ridiculous and paranoid. 

This is only one tiny step away from that "paranoid" prediction.

A similar prediction was made by yours truly, with a modest amount of kickback from forum folk (http://www.fundamentalforums.org/the-fighting-forum/how-long-before-gay-hate-speech-criminalization-becomes-a-reality/msg60872/#msg60872).


aleshanee, so sorry to hear that you had to leave the church you loved for so long.  May the Lord lead you as you seek to find a Biblical assembly to worship Him in.

Not saying aleshanee is wrong because she is there. Looking at news things, the only thing I see is that churches cannot discriminate against gays concerning the use of facilities, such as coffee shops or bookstores. I'm thinking that perhaps the church itself made the decision. So this might or might not be a situation where the government is MANDATING the marrying of gays in their facilities. I've not found a news report yet that confirms that is what is being mandated.

If you have an actual news link to the contrary, I would love to read more into it.

I trust her testimony, and my mind is more than convinced by a variety of factors that the secular trajectory of our country is headed towards persecution for Christians.

And if Christians are persecuted, then how is that a "bad" thing?

Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

If persecution is something that brings blessing, why are we complaining about it?

(General statement and not directed toward any individual.) As Americans, we have many choices. I do not criticize aleshanee for her choice and perhaps I would have made the same one if it were in my shoes. The overall picture that is disturbing to me is this:

1. We complain about that which could possibly bring glory from God and try to avoid it.
2. We have made the church into a corporation and want to defy legislation that affects corporations.
3. At times, we hide our personal discriminations in the cloak of religious behaviors. (Should gay people be allowed to make purchases at church cafes?)

In essence, we want governmental approval so as to avoid taxation but don't want it when it comes to our choosing who and who not to do what in our congregation. Being of Libertarian bent, I am opposed to government dictating what individual churches should do. However, we have created this Frankenstein monster which has run amok and criticize those that are trying to destroy it when they are the ones living in fear.

Christianity ought to be the FIRST place discriminated people should turn to for support rather than the first place to attack. The fact we are seen as a position of conflict proves how much we have strayed from the teachings of Christ and His command to love our enemies. Like the Priest and Levite, we are afraid of defilement in worship by allowing ourselves to "touch the unclean" when we should be lending aid. Oh, and abandonment is not equivalent to aid, IMHO.

So where do we stand? Vote as God leads and love as God has commanded, which means loving those that persecute us.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

I remember when people mocked those who said accepting gay marriage was a slippery slope to forcing churches to perform gay marriages.  It was considered ridiculous and paranoid. 

This is only one tiny step away from that "paranoid" prediction.

A similar prediction was made by yours truly, with a modest amount of kickback from forum folk (http://www.fundamentalforums.org/the-fighting-forum/how-long-before-gay-hate-speech-criminalization-becomes-a-reality/msg60872/#msg60872).


aleshanee, so sorry to hear that you had to leave the church you loved for so long.  May the Lord lead you as you seek to find a Biblical assembly to worship Him in.

Not saying aleshanee is wrong because she is there. Looking at news things, the only thing I see is that churches cannot discriminate against gays concerning the use of facilities, such as coffee shops or bookstores. I'm thinking that perhaps the church itself made the decision. So this might or might not be a situation where the government is MANDATING the marrying of gays in their facilities. I've not found a news report yet that confirms that is what is being mandated.

If you have an actual news link to the contrary, I would love to read more into it.

the news stopped reporting on it after the law was passed.... to them it was a done deal...... but the last minute provisions added to the law exempting certain clergy and churches from performing gay weddings only apply to those who do not sponsor or hold commercial weddings... and who take no payment for the members weddings they do hold..........  according to the wording in the law a churches commercial wedding business is viewed no different than a church book store or cafe..... gay advocates made it clear from the start they would sue any church who thought otherwise....

this is why several churches that use to make a large part of their income off commercial weddings have ceased all of that activity.... including the one i attend now...... but they have been told by attorneys on both sides of the issue to expect lawsuits from gay to try and force them into compliance because they already had set a precedent providing services for commercial weddings without regard to the persons faith etc..........

and this is why the catholic church is the only one not being affected by this new law....... at least not yet..... because they require membership in their church and proof of faith before they will agree to perform a wedding......... but even they might be forced to stop accepting payments for those weddings in the future if they wish to continue denying gays the right to marry in their church.....

Thanks for clarifying. Is there any legitimate news or legal source anywhere that outlines the details?

The church (in general, not necessarily any particular assembly or denomination), in essence, has shot itself in the foot by incorporating and/or gaining funding from outside its membership through sales and rentals. We are now seeing what happens when religion becomes a corporation: it holds accountability to its members AND to those who want to rent or purchase "goods".

I believe the church was meant to be an organism, not an organization.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

Thanks for clarifying. Is there any legitimate news or legal source anywhere that outlines the details?

The church (in general, not necessarily any particular assembly or denomination), in essence, has shot itself in the foot by incorporating and/or gaining funding from outside its membership through sales and rentals. We are now seeing what happens when religion becomes a corporation: it holds accountability to its members AND to those who want to rent or purchase "goods".

I believe the church was meant to be an organism, not an organization.

but what is an organism if it has no organization?......... it;s a disorganized mass somewhat like an amoeba....  alive... but very small...barely able to move on it;s own..... and not able to do much of anything other than cause some gastric enteritis now and then when consumed............ is that the view Christ had for His church?....

To use another metaphor, the church is the sail and it is Jesus' view to move that ship in the direction He chooses when He chooses. Too much structure does not allow for complete movement of the Spirit of God. (FYI, this was a problem with the OT Law.)

Another metaphor. A crowd of people who travel together by walking can change direction as needed on their journey together. The same crowd of people who travel together by airplane cannot instantly change direction as the Spirit would lead them as if they were walking. The airplane has a destination (structure) with goals to achieve whereas walking will go where it needs to be when it needs to be there, taking as long as is needed for the situation.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Another metaphor. A crowd of people who travel together by walking can change direction as needed on their journey together. The same crowd of people who travel together by airplane cannot instantly change direction as the Spirit would lead them as if they were walking. The airplane has a destination (structure) with goals to achieve whereas walking will go where it needs to be when it needs to be there, taking as long as is needed for the situation.

Unless the plane is from Malaysia.