...........

[The Rogue Tomato]

If there was a "Christ-follower" political party, it would probably wouldn't be perfect either.

I'm sure it wouldn't be. That's the point.

Yeah, but most of them would admit it! 

 

[prophet]

...of course they do..... and they have....... but you are speaking of immorality only as it pertains to sexual immorality..... the things rsc2a mentioned ... that have their base in greed, racism and indifference... are also immoral ....

I asked for actual legalizations and rsc2a said "not so much." These are just vague accusations.

If abortion somehow equates to any unstated "immoral" laws passed by conservatives... then list them.

what rsc2a listed are not just vague accusations...... they are just a few of the core beliefs based on greed racism and indifference....that drive much of the policies and actions that conservative take.............and what you originally asked was this....

What corrupting sin does a conservative want to legalize?

meanwhile countries where american business interfered and caused more harm than good suffered wars ...revolutions.. increases in crime rates... and some of that even made it;s way back into the united states....... (have you ever heard of an el salvadoran street gang called ms-13?... )... and then one country in particular which had already suffered years of economic sanctions that caused the starvation deaths of countless children was attacked by a conservative administration under the guise of looking for wmds that were never there......... this was what i was talking about when i asked if it was any more evil to kill children by ripping them from their mothers wombs or waiting until they get older and incinerating them in their cribs....... ... fact is... both are evil.... and i;m not condoning one or the other.....

I swore to fight this one, so sidetrack prophet is at it again.
But this is too egregious to let go.

WMDs:

The terms of surrender, in 1991, in Iraq, included dismantling of WMDs.
The U.N. had a list of those WMDs.
The U.N. had weapons inspection teams in Iraq for 12 years, with one purpose...
Oversight of the dismantling of those WMDs.
14 times in those 12 years, the UN imposed sanctions for violations of those surrender terms, ie dismantling process.
The last violation, was a period of 2 years where Saddam kicked the weapons inspectors out of Iraq, and when they finally returned, there were many unaccounted for.
The stated reason for going back in to Iraq, was exactly because there were no WMDs , where WMDs ,dismantled, should have been.

None of what I have said here, is even classified.

You had to be a complete idiot to fall for the way the media repainted the whole issue, to stir up the next generation of young radicals.

I'm talking , of course, to those of us who are old enough to have been paying attention to National and International news since 1990.

This is so laughable, as to be ridiculous, yet I hear people, who are otherwise intelligent, repeat the "there were no WMDs" line.

U.N.Weapons Inspectors

Google may help.

ok.... speaking strictly about the wmds and not the other points i mentioned.... since wmds is what you focused on......... i for one was among those who said that even if no wmds were found the military action of going in to look for them was still justified because sadaam hussien himself as much as bragged about having such weapons ........ and what i said about them here had nothing to do with anything i saw in the news media...... my opinions come from mostly from family members ... and one in particular.... who has also worked in iraq and other countries in the middle east and persian gulf off and on for many years..... i don;t know what she knows because she doesn;t tell me..... and for the record she is a more devout conservative republican than probably anybody here............ but when she says the 2003 invasion of iraq had little to with wmds but was more about bush going after hussein for personal reasons i tend to believe her.............

but make no mistake...... she totally supported all the gulf wars and still does....... she is working in a war zone right now..... but even she says the prolonged war against the insurgency which cost thousands of u.s deaths and millions of iraqi civilian deaths could have..... and should have...been avoided by simply putting a bullet in the head of sadaam hussein the day he was captured..... leaving his dead body in the street and then exiting the country....... and she said that;s what the u.s. should have done immediately after learning he was captured and long before the insurgency war there even began.... ....... and ...though she hates obama as much as anybody here..... she nonetheless said killing osama bin laden on sight... .... then dumping his body at sea before any insurgent action could develop was one of the smartest moves anyone had made in that part of the world in a long time.........

if you assume that i sit and watch the news or rely on social media for my opinions and views on things then you assume too much.........

My only purpose for the post was to tell the truth where a lie has been planted.

Now back to the regularly scheduled republican bashing luau

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

so where is this "lie" that was planted?......and where are those wmds today that they were supposed to be looking for?....... do you know for certain something the rest of the world does not know about what the un inspectors knew and when they knew it?......... or is this just more military indignation and angst talking?........

Pretty sure we know now that the WMDs were moved to Syria. 

I'm not sure what lie you're talking about, but the "Bush lied, people died" mantra (not saying you're making that claim, just adding this) drives me crazy.  Intelligence said to multiple countries that there were WMDs.  If the intelligence turned out to be wrong, that doesn't constitute a lie. 

Not that I think we should have gone to war.  I still haven't made up my mind on that, and probably never will, because I don't know all the facts.  But once we were there, we should have stayed until we were no longer needed.

 

[Izdaari]

Uh huh. I do believe "shoot Saddam and leave" would have been the best plan.  8)

 

[prophet]

...of course they do..... and they have....... but you are speaking of immorality only as it pertains to sexual immorality..... the things rsc2a mentioned ... that have their base in greed, racism and indifference... are also immoral ....

I asked for actual legalizations and rsc2a said "not so much." These are just vague accusations.

If abortion somehow equates to any unstated "immoral" laws passed by conservatives... then list them.

what rsc2a listed are not just vague accusations...... they are just a few of the core beliefs based on greed racism and indifference....that drive much of the policies and actions that conservative take.............and what you originally asked was this....

What corrupting sin does a conservative want to legalize?

meanwhile countries where american business interfered and caused more harm than good suffered wars ...revolutions.. increases in crime rates... and some of that even made it;s way back into the united states....... (have you ever heard of an el salvadoran street gang called ms-13?... )... and then one country in particular which had already suffered years of economic sanctions that caused the starvation deaths of countless children was attacked by a conservative administration under the guise of looking for wmds that were never there......... this was what i was talking about when i asked if it was any more evil to kill children by ripping them from their mothers wombs or waiting until they get older and incinerating them in their cribs....... ... fact is... both are evil.... and i;m not condoning one or the other.....

I swore to fight this one, so sidetrack prophet is at it again.
But this is too egregious to let go.

WMDs:

The terms of surrender, in 1991, in Iraq, included dismantling of WMDs.
The U.N. had a list of those WMDs.
The U.N. had weapons inspection teams in Iraq for 12 years, with one purpose...
Oversight of the dismantling of those WMDs.
14 times in those 12 years, the UN imposed sanctions for violations of those surrender terms, ie dismantling process.
The last violation, was a period of 2 years where Saddam kicked the weapons inspectors out of Iraq, and when they finally returned, there were many unaccounted for.
The stated reason for going back in to Iraq, was exactly because there were no WMDs , where WMDs ,dismantled, should have been.

None of what I have said here, is even classified.

You had to be a complete idiot to fall for the way the media repainted the whole issue, to stir up the next generation of young radicals.

I'm talking , of course, to those of us who are old enough to have been paying attention to National and International news since 1990.

This is so laughable, as to be ridiculous, yet I hear people, who are otherwise intelligent, repeat the "there were no WMDs" line.

U.N.Weapons Inspectors

Google may help.

ok.... speaking strictly about the wmds and not the other points i mentioned.... since wmds is what you focused on......... i for one was among those who said that even if no wmds were found the military action of going in to look for them was still justified because sadaam hussien himself as much as bragged about having such weapons ........ and what i said about them here had nothing to do with anything i saw in the news media...... my opinions come from mostly from family members ... and one in particular.... who has also worked in iraq and other countries in the middle east and persian gulf off and on for many years..... i don;t know what she knows because she doesn;t tell me..... and for the record she is a more devout conservative republican than probably anybody here............ but when she says the 2003 invasion of iraq had little to with wmds but was more about bush going after hussein for personal reasons i tend to believe her.............

but make no mistake...... she totally supported all the gulf wars and still does....... she is working in a war zone right now..... but even she says the prolonged war against the insurgency which cost thousands of u.s deaths and millions of iraqi civilian deaths could have..... and should have...been avoided by simply putting a bullet in the head of sadaam hussein the day he was captured..... leaving his dead body in the street and then exiting the country....... and she said that;s what the u.s. should have done immediately after learning he was captured and long before the insurgency war there even began.... ....... and ...though she hates obama as much as anybody here..... she nonetheless said killing osama bin laden on sight... .... then dumping his body at sea before any insurgent action could develop was one of the smartest moves anyone had made in that part of the world in a long time.........

if you assume that i sit and watch the news or rely on social media for my opinions and views on things then you assume too much.........

My only purpose for the post was to tell the truth where a lie has been planted.

Now back to the regularly scheduled republican bashing luau

funny....... someone acting with typical military indignation and angst...comes into a thread about people taking power back from crooked politicians by voting them out of office.... then hijacks it to not only stage his own democrat bashing luau..... but to broad brush and besmear the character of virtually every voter in the state...... a defense gets put up against his attack to show that republicans are no less evil in their own ways and somehow that goes down in your book as a republican bashing luau?.............

what you said about the wmd issue...... which i reposted below.... does not even completely contradict what i said about them...... and your comment leaves open the possibility that inspectors knew from the start those wmds had already been moved from the country..... which is exactly what other people i have talked to have suggested..... and they further suggested un resolution 1441 served as nothing but an excuse for bush to go in and do what he had wanted to do since the very beginning concerning hussein........

The stated reason for going back in to Iraq, was exactly because there were no WMDs , where WMDs ,dismantled, should have been.

so where is this "lie" that was planted?......and where are those wmds today that they were supposed to be looking for?....... do you know for certain something the rest of the world does not know about what the un inspectors knew and when they knew it?......... or is this just more military indignation and angst talking?........

1. The weapons inspectors weren't there to "look for WMD's", did you even read my post?

Try your best to be offended, no matter what I actually say.

2. The weapons inspectors were overseeing the dismantling of weapons that they had documentation on.

3. The last time they were expelled, they returned to find that some of these weapons were missing.

To say that Saddam had no WMDs is blatantly a lie, so ludicrous, that
anyone repeating it (in 2003), should've been laughed to scorn.

The reason that The U.S. expressed need for reinvasion, was that a very real fear existed that Saddam would sell the WMDs that were missing to terrorists.

To be fair, I hung my head in disbelief when Bush included the WMD line in his original speech.
I knew that he was fear-mongering to get his way, believing that the words WMD would sway the anti-war factions to his side of the operation. 
It proved to do the opposite.

But they were real, they were there, and they were stamped "made in the USA".  And we have 12 years of documented inspections to prove it.


And don't forget the part that the crash of the Asian market played on Hawaiian real estate...

 

[prophet]

1. The weapons inspectors weren't there to "look for WMD's", did you even read my post?

Try your best to be offended, no matter what I actually say.

yes.. i read your post.....it was a bit confusing as usual but i did my best to figure it out..... what caught my attention most was the accusation that i lied........ so how was i not supposed to be offended?........

2. The weapons inspectors were overseeing the dismantling of weapons that they had documentation on.

3. The last time they were expelled, they returned to find that some of these weapons were missing.

yes... the shell game i talked about...... and from what i understand the documentation was not always actual verification of a working weapon but in some cases merely documentation that one was claimed by iraq to be there....or a weapon that was mostly show and not even functional..... (like his giant sewer pipe section looking "supergun" propped up against a hill that was supposed to be able to shoot shells into israel.....)

To say that Saddam had no WMDs is blatantly a lie, so ludicrous, that
anyone repeating it (in 2003), should've been laughed to scorn.

we know he had some at one time because he used them against his own people...... (poison gas is classified as a wmd)...... but from the way bush and others talked most americans expected u.s. forces to come across and discover huge stockpiles of.... something....  ???.....or at least a serviceable weapon system classified as wmd....... even while being chased into hiding and defeated in his own country he managed to make the u.n. look incompetent to the rest of the world........not that it;s that hard to do........but in the process it made the u.s. military appear to be chasing rabbits.....that was bad for all of us.....

The reason that The U.S. expressed need for reinvasion, was that a very real fear existed that Saddam would sell the WMDs that were missing to terrorists.

To be fair, I hung my head in disbelief when Bush included the WMD line in his original speech.
I knew that he was fear-mongering to get his way, believing that the words WMD would sway the anti-war factions to his side of the operation. 
It proved to do the opposite.

But they were real, they were there, and they were stamped "made in the USA".  And we have 12 years of documented inspections to prove it.

i thought russia supplied most of the wmd material to iraq...  ???  .. with the exception of some hardware they bought from england and other european countries........... but i heard the poison gas all came from russia......and that is supposedly where it all went back to.......... rather than being destroyed......... that was another mistake politicians on both sides of the aisle made.... thinking russia had suddenly become our friends and allies and were thus no longer hostile.... could now be trusted .......... 

And don't forget the part that the crash of the Asian market played on Hawaiian real estate...

yeah......ironically that was what stopped the skyrocketing prices the previous japanese buying frenzy and obsession with owning hawaiian property caused..... and it actually gave middle class renters trying to stay in a modest home and raise a family a little bit of relief ......for a short while....... but then when the near zero interest rates set during the bush administration touched off another property buying frenzy... and this time from wealthy people all over the world..... the average hawaiian family trying to rent a modest sized home where they could live without being crammed elbow to elbow and still paying the entire monthly salary of 3 people just to rent it didn;t have a chance....... and they still don;t......

1st, I wasn't calling you a liar.

I know who lied, and why.

The U.S. had a vested interest in arming Saddam.
He was to keep a war going with our real enemy...the Shiites.
But, as usual, our interference in Iran and Iraq backfired on us.
So we went to war in 1990.

We know exactly what he had, and where they were, in 1991.
The terms of surrender included
Dismantling of all WMDs, to be overseen by the U.N.
They had all of the weapons shipped to dismantling factories, and this process was what the UN Weapons Inspectors were actually doing in Iraq for the next 12 years.

The UN has, of course, a list of the weapons that were being dismantled, and records of their disposal.

One of the sanctions imposed by the UN, was over the missing Gas bombs, that we now know he used to gas the Kurds, since we found the mass graves during the reinvasion.

So, recap:
We know what WMDs he had.
We were overseeing their dismantling and disposal.
14 times the UN sanctioned Iraq, for non-cooperation in this process.

The media, knowing full well that the declassification of the lists wouldn't take place in their lifetime, painted a picture of UN inspectors searching for alleged WMDs, rather than UN inspectors finding yet another dismantling violation.
This was France and Germany's doing, as much as anyones (through the UN), because they had violated the sanctions as well, continuing to trade with Iraq contrary to embargos put inplace by sanction.

What gets repeated is the complete opposite of what happened.

WMDs not found = WMDs that had been moved instead of dismantled.

BTW, those weapons still aren't in U.S. or UN custody. 


Lie:  "there were no WMDs".

Truth:  The known WMDs are and were unaccounted for.

And the Socialist Media ,of course, has been allowed to repeat the lie so often that a majority of people now believe it.


I wasn't calling you a liar.

When the media put out the blatant lies about the history of those WMDs, and I begin to hear people in everyday life repeat them, I decided to not let those lies go unchallenged.

Besides, I live with the result of the preparation for invasion in 1990/91.  I'm  "immune" to some things that Saddam "didn't have".

 

[Izdaari]

I think Prophet's summary of the WMD situation is pretty much how it happened.

 

[FSSL]

Yep! Iraq was all our fault. <sarcasm off>

Let's focus on the corrupt UN.

 

[prophet]

Yep! Iraq was all our fault. <sarcasm off>

Let's focus on the corrupt UN.

Right.  First off, everything that happened there was a UN police action.
We declared war on terror, but have just about let the UN dictate , like they have since their inception, what we do where and how.

The whole purpose of the UN, is and has been to use U.S. funding to undermine her Soveriegnty.