616 or 666 in Revelation?

[praise_yeshua]

Which one is it?

There are early accounts from Iraneus that witness to variant texts that reference the number of the beast as being 616. The oldest extant fragment referencing the number of beast has recently been found and it reads 616.

This can't be explained away with a simple copyist error argument.

Imagine just how WRONG all those who have been preaching about the number of the beast have been if its really 616!

How does one rationally make the case for 666?

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

If I can calculate the number of a name of someone I hate to be 666, then it's 666.  If the calculation is 616, then it's 616. 

 

[Recovering IFB]

I heard on a podcast recently that Dan Wallace had said that he saw the actual papyri and that it was 616.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I heard on a podcast recently that Dan Wallace had said that he saw the actual papyri and that it was 616.

That's correct. He say the early fragment himself. Wallace is an honest man.

 

[FSSL]

Great! Now I have to change my lower back tattoo!

But really, why would it matter? Personally, I believe it is 665 (see mss 2344) lol

 

[Ransom]

Which one is it?

Which ever one you prefer, for reasons you think are so obvious they're beneath your explaining to the rest of us?

 

[Ransom]

Here's one place where I think the preterists might be on to something.

[T]he presence in some ancient manuscripts of a variation in which 666 is rendered 616 lends further credence to Nero as the intended referent. The Hebrew transliteration of the Latin spelling of "Nero Caesar" totals 616, just as the Hebrew transliteration of the Greek, which includes an additional letter (Greek: "n"=50, English transliteration: "n"=50), renders 666. Thus, two seemingly unrelated numbers lead you to the same doorstep--that of a beast named Nero Caesar.

[Source]

 

[praise_yeshua]

Here's one place where I think the preterists might be on to something.

[T]he presence in some ancient manuscripts of a variation in which 666 is rendered 616 lends further credence to Nero as the intended referent. The Hebrew transliteration of the Latin spelling of "Nero Caesar" totals 616, just as the Hebrew transliteration of the Greek, which includes an additional letter (Greek: "n"=50, English transliteration: "n"=50), renders 666. Thus, two seemingly unrelated numbers lead you to the same doorstep--that of a beast named Nero Caesar.

[Source]

Good grief....

The Hebrew transliteration of the Latin spelling of ?Nero Caesar? totals 616

Yeah. That makes sense Ransom....

Either way, one is not the other.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Great! Now I have to change my lower back tattoo!

But really, why would it matter? Personally, I believe it is 665 (see mss 2344) lol

Why does it matter? Well, its a mistake. Its also proof that a mistake was interjected into the text very early on. Giving credence to what Iraneous said about the text being corrupted.

 

[Ransom]

Yeah. That makes sense Ransom....

Funny, I understood what the author meant just fine.

I mean, you are aware that Latin, Greek and Hebrew all use their own alphabets to represent numeric values, aren't you?

 

[praise_yeshua]

Yeah. That makes sense Ransom....

Funny, I understood what the author meant just fine.

I mean, you are aware that Latin, Greek and Hebrew all use their own alphabets to represent numeric values, aren't you?

Sure. Its the use of "Hebrew transliteration to Latin" to justify the conclusion..... that's rather stupid.

Go ahead. Believe it. A Greek text.....written to a Asian audience..... who would certainly understand to transliterate a none existence Hebrew reference to Latin.... and determine 616 is Nero. Yeah. That makes perfect sense....

There are some really weird theological gymnastics going on here..... Well... Its been going on with supporters of Revelation for hundreds of years. It didn't take but 1500 years for it to beginning to really be accepted.

 

[Ransom]

Sure. Its the use of "Hebrew transliteration to Latin" to justify the conclusion..... that's rather stupid.

Law of Yeezy #2: If Yeezy doesn't understand something, it must be stupid.

 

[subllibrm]

Ruh roh, I live in the 616 area code! 

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Ruh roh, I live in the 616 area code! 

The man of sin has been revealed!!!  All hell's going to break loose now.

 

[subllibrm]

Ruh roh, I live in the 616 area code! 

The man of sin has been revealed!!!  All hell's going to break loose now.

Should I move or just get a different phone number?  ;D

 

[FSSL]

Why does it matter? Well, its a mistake. Its also proof that a mistake was interjected into the text very early on. Giving credence to what Iraneous said about the text being corrupted.

Was the original corrupted or the copies?

 

[FSSL]

There are early accounts from Iraneus that witness to variant texts that reference the number of the beast as being 616.

Source? Please place the FULL quote from Iraneaus and his actual position.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Why does it matter? Well, its a mistake. Its also proof that a mistake was interjected into the text very early on. Giving credence to what Iraneous said about the text being corrupted.

Was the original corrupted or the copies?

Since you know, you tell me.

 

[praise_yeshua]

There are early accounts from Iraneus that witness to variant texts that reference the number of the beast as being 616.

Source? Please place the FULL quote from Iraneaus and his actual position.

Codex Ephraemi Rescriptus contains the variant. As does Papyrus 115.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103530.htm

3. It is therefore more certain, and less hazardous, to await the fulfilment of the prophecy, than to be making surmises, and casting about for any names that may present themselves, inasmuch as many names can be found possessing the number mentioned; and the same question will, after all, remain unsolved. For if there are many names found possessing this number, it will be asked which among them shall the coming man bear. It is not through a want of names containing the number of that name that I say this, but on account of the fear of God, and zeal for the truth: for the name Evanthas (???????) contains the required number, but I make no allegation regarding it. Then also Lateinos (????????) has the number six hundred and sixty-six; and it is a very probable [solution], this being the name of the last kingdom [of the four seen by Daniel]. For the Latins are they who at present bear rule: I will not, however, make any boast over this [coincidence]. Teitan too, (??????, the first syllable being written with the two Greek vowels ? and ?, among all the names which are found among us, is rather worthy of credit. For it has in itself the predicted number, and is composed of six letters, each syllable containing three letters; and [the word itself] is ancient, and removed from ordinary use; for among our kings we find none bearing this name Titan, nor have any of the idols which are worshipped in public among the Greeks and barbarians this appellation. Among many persons, too, this name is accounted divine, so that even the sun is termed "Titan" by those who do now possess [the rule]. This word, too, contains a certain outward appearance of vengeance, and of one inflicting merited punishment because he (Antichrist) pretends that he vindicates the oppressed. And besides this, it is an ancient name, one worthy of credit, of royal dignity, and still further, a name belonging to a tyrant. Inasmuch, then, as this name "Titan" has so much to recommend it, there is a strong degree of probability, that from among the many [names suggested], we infer, that perchance he who is to come shall be called "Titan." We will not, however, incur the risk of pronouncing positively as to the name of Antichrist; for if it were necessary that his name should be distinctly revealed in this present time, it would have been announced by him who beheld the apocalyptic vision. For that was seen no very long time since, but almost in our day, towards the end of Domitian's reign.

 

[Anchor]

It's official--Grand Rapids, Michigan (area code 616), is Hell