9 Warning Signs Your Pastor May Be Building His Own Kingdom

[bgwilkinson]

These are some things that were very noticeable in my two former pastors.

You might want to use this test in your current congregation and if you're its leader you might want to reevaluate your own motives.


http://www.stevehackman.net/9-warning-signs-your-pastor-may-be-building-his-own-kingdom/

1) The Pastor is more vocal about taking the nations, country, or city “for Jesus” than loving individual people.
2) Family members seem to fill key church job openings.
3)  The Pastor is not enthusiastic about uniting with other churches in their geographic region.
4) Your proximity to the Pastor is directly related to your ability to further the church’s vision.
5) The Pastor positions himself as having just a little better revelation of God’s will than everyone else.
6) In the Pastor’s eyes you are viewed as either “in” or “out”.
7) There is passive or aggressive pressure by the Pastor not to associate with others who have left the church.
8) The Pastor requires you to have your understanding of God, the Bible, and “the world” be in total agreement with his.
9) The Pastor uses pulpit teachings to address conflicts that should be dealt with personally or privately.

What would you advise someone to do if their Pastor fit this criteria?
Leave immediately, I would assume.

No. Quite the opposite, stay, dig in and raise generations of children in the nurture and admonition of the LORD. Teach them what the scriptures say not what some MOG says the scriptures say as he impresses his own private interpretation on the scripture text.

The problem with hundreds of people leaving a congregation over the years can be put in perspective when you realize that if they had stayed in the congregation they would have become the majority in a couple of decades. They would then have the numbers to easily make a difference, when one leaves he is effectively irrelevant to the health of the body.

These are the people who show greatest interest in the operation and edification of the body and are very likely to be older more mature christians who tend to be most faithful and the most generous givers. This was and is the case with a huge number of people that left FBCH over the years.

If all the people that left FBCH quietly were still at FBCH there would not even be any question, the thinking of the whole congregation would be vastly more healthy than at present as we try to recover from yet another scandal.

I do not believe in leaving quietly but rather staying and doing all one can to correct the errors. In our day it is so much easier, as every person can have their own outlet for getting out the facts.

When you are the majority you can easily make the changes that are necessary and scriptural.

If all the people like Mr. Minas had stayed, FBCH would have been a balanced congregation instead of a quirky temperamental locally despised and ridiculed organization.

I taught my family to stay and tough it out. Give it decades. Teach your family the same. Serve the LORD with gladness and don't obsess over the pastor and his errors. Kindly write him and point out his errors and by all means pray for him and his family daily. God Bless our dear pastor and his family.

By all means teach the Baptist distinctives and the reasons why we even have them today. If Baptists believed and practiced what they say they believed Man of God ism would dissolve and not afflict us as it does today.

Bro. Hyles used to say don't quit. As for me and my family we will not quit even though we do not always agree with the nuttyness that still exists and so thoroughly stunts the growth of so many members of the body.

While this may sound noble, ultimately it will destroy your family.  Are you going to point out to your family every time you think the pastor is wrong in his interpretation?  Such tactics WILL get to the notice of the pastor, and then he will preach at YOU, and you will not be in his "inner circle" (if you ever were).  What do you tell the children THEN?  They will grow up to despise all pastors as hypocrites and stay away from church entirely, or they will become ultra-critics, always on the move looking for the "perfect" church.
In my opinion, staying in such a church will ultimately destroy you and your family.


The choice of staying or going is not always easy, and part of it depends upon what your other choices are.  If the church is the ONLY one in your area, you may need to stay there or else consider moving.

Oh, quoting Bro Hyles isn't a good authority.  One day I'd like to hear someone preach a topic like "Let's Hear It For the Quitters" or something like that.  "Never quit" is absolutely ridiculous, and comes out of Bro Hyles' unscriptural leadership philosophies.

Walt said,

"While this may sound noble, ultimately it will destroy your family.  Are you going to point out to your family every time you think the pastor is wrong in his interpretation?  Such tactics WILL get to the notice of the pastor, and then he will preach at YOU, and you will not be in his "inner circle" (if you ever were).  What do you tell the children THEN?  They will grow up to despise all pastors as hypocrites and stay away from church entirely, or they will become ultra-critics, always on the move looking for the "perfect" church.
In my opinion, staying in such a church will ultimately destroy you and your family."

I respectfully disagree that my family will be destroyed.

Yes I do speak for myself and my family, and the way they were trained and taught.
I'm sorry if what I said came across as a set of tactics, I assure you it was not. It is a way of life.

First all people are sinners and have wicked hearts and the very best they can do is just filthy rags. Yes pastors are just wicked sinners. All members of the body are sinners. I do not expect any to never sin.

So when a pastor sins it is regrettable and sad but not unexpected.

A pastor is a member of the body the same as anyone else, even though he has the bully pulpit. All members are living stones that make up the temple of God on this earth with Jesus as the chief cornerstone.

Pastors come and pastors go, but Jesus is the head of the body, not the pastor. Jesus never fails. Much heartache would be avoided if all Christians would depend more on Jesus and less on their pastor.

I do not expect the pastor to always live without sin. He has feet of clay and makes many mistakes. I did not need to explain to my family every thing that the pastor might have mess up on. We all knew he was just a man and not a super Christian. I guess some thought he was.

As to being in the inner circle.  To me it is not desirable to be in the pastor's inner circle. I want to be in the inner circle with Jesus. Now if the pastor happens to be there with Jesus so be it. Now if the pastor is interested in following Jesus it might appear I am in the pastor's inner circle, but I assure you it is only because Jesus inner circle and the the pastor's inner circle happen to intersect, perhaps only temporarily.

As to despising the pastor. That may be the way it is for others. I taught my family to love the brethren.
Included is also pastors. We do not despise men because they perform the ministry of pastor, but rather give them due honor and deference, understanding all the while that we all are sinners who fail repeatedly. Jesus loves us all including the pastors, I can do no less.

As to criticism. I believe that criticism can be a good thing when used as a means of improvement and edification of the body of Christ. I personally welcome criticism and evaluation. How can one improve if he is unaware of his faults?


Walt said,

"The choice of staying or going is not always easy, and part of it depends upon what your other choices are.  If the church is the ONLY one in your area, you may need to stay there or else consider moving."


You are correct if we were making the decision on staying or going. I did not get to Hammond by making a decision based on my own human reasoning but rather the decision was made due to the unmistakable and clear leading of the LORD. The LORD is my shepherd.

I would not even consider going unless there was a clear and unmistakable leading of the LORD.

Putting it in other words, God would have to move me before I would leave FBCH, to this date he has not led me to leave. I'll just leave it up to Him. I stay close to the LORD so where he leads I will follow.

Oh, by the way, I have also taught my children to stay close to the LORD and follow him wherever he leads.
I believe in taking the advice of my Pastor, "The LORD is my Shepherd"

Pastor is a Latin word that came directly from the Latin Vulgate that means shepherd.

Walt said,

"Oh, quoting Bro Hyles isn't a good authority.  One day I'd like to hear someone preach a topic like "Let's Hear It For the Quitters" or something like that.  "Never quit" is absolutely ridiculous, and comes out of Bro Hyles' unscriptural leadership philosophies."


Yes you are quite right he is not a good authority, but a classic example of a very flawed man.

Can you imagine a speaker saying don't quit smoking, don't quit drinking, don't quit immorality, yep ridiculous.

I so much appreciate your response.

 

[Bruh]

These are some things that were very noticeable in my two former pastors.

You might want to use this test in your current congregation and if you're its leader you might want to reevaluate your own motives.


http://www.stevehackman.net/9-warning-signs-your-pastor-may-be-building-his-own-kingdom/

1) The Pastor is more vocal about taking the nations, country, or city “for Jesus” than loving individual people.
2) Family members seem to fill key church job openings.
3)  The Pastor is not enthusiastic about uniting with other churches in their geographic region.
4) Your proximity to the Pastor is directly related to your ability to further the church’s vision.
5) The Pastor positions himself as having just a little better revelation of God’s will than everyone else.
6) In the Pastor’s eyes you are viewed as either “in” or “out”.
7) There is passive or aggressive pressure by the Pastor not to associate with others who have left the church.
8) The Pastor requires you to have your understanding of God, the Bible, and “the world” be in total agreement with his.
9) The Pastor uses pulpit teachings to address conflicts that should be dealt with personally or privately.

What would you advise someone to do if their Pastor fit this criteria?
Leave immediately, I would assume.

No. Quite the opposite, stay, dig in and raise generations of children in the nurture and admonition of the LORD. Teach them what the scriptures say not what some MOG says the scriptures say as he impresses his own private interpretation on the scripture text.

The problem with hundreds of people leaving a congregation over the years can be put in perspective when you realize that if they had stayed in the congregation they would have become the majority in a couple of decades. They would then have the numbers to easily make a difference, when one leaves he is effectively irrelevant to the health of the body.

These are the people who show greatest interest in the operation and edification of the body and are very likely to be older more mature christians who tend to be most faithful and the most generous givers. This was and is the case with a huge number of people that left FBCH over the years.

If all the people that left FBCH quietly were still at FBCH there would not even be any question, the thinking of the whole congregation would be vastly more healthy than at present as we try to recover from yet another scandal.

I do not believe in leaving quietly but rather staying and doing all one can to correct the errors. In our day it is so much easier, as every person can have their own outlet for getting out the facts.

When you are the majority you can easily make the changes that are necessary and scriptural.

If all the people like Mr. Minas had stayed, FBCH would have been a balanced congregation instead of a quirky temperamental locally despised and ridiculed organization.

I taught my family to stay and tough it out. Give it decades. Teach your family the same. Serve the LORD with gladness and don't obsess over the pastor and his errors. Kindly write him and point out his errors and by all means pray for him and his family daily. God Bless our dear pastor and his family.

By all means teach the Baptist distinctives and the reasons why we even have them today. If Baptists believed and practiced what they say they believed Man of God ism would dissolve and not afflict us as it does today.

Bro. Hyles used to say don't quit. As for me and my family we will not quit even though we do not always agree with the nuttyness that still exists and so thoroughly stunts the growth of so many members of the body.

While this may sound noble, ultimately it will destroy your family.  Are you going to point out to your family every time you think the pastor is wrong in his interpretation?  Such tactics WILL get to the notice of the pastor, and then he will preach at YOU, and you will not be in his "inner circle" (if you ever were).  What do you tell the children THEN?  They will grow up to despise all pastors as hypocrites and stay away from church entirely, or they will become ultra-critics, always on the move looking for the "perfect" church.
In my opinion, staying in such a church will ultimately destroy you and your family.


The choice of staying or going is not always easy, and part of it depends upon what your other choices are.  If the church is the ONLY one in your area, you may need to stay there or else consider moving.

Oh, quoting Bro Hyles isn't a good authority.  One day I'd like to hear someone preach a topic like "Let's Hear It For the Quitters" or something like that.  "Never quit" is absolutely ridiculous, and comes out of Bro Hyles' unscriptural leadership philosophies.

Walt said,

"While this may sound noble, ultimately it will destroy your family.  Are you going to point out to your family every time you think the pastor is wrong in his interpretation?  Such tactics WILL get to the notice of the pastor, and then he will preach at YOU, and you will not be in his "inner circle" (if you ever were).  What do you tell the children THEN?  They will grow up to despise all pastors as hypocrites and stay away from church entirely, or they will become ultra-critics, always on the move looking for the "perfect" church.
In my opinion, staying in such a church will ultimately destroy you and your family."

I respectfully disagree that my family will be destroyed.

Yes I do speak for myself and my family, and the way they were trained and taught.
I'm sorry if what I said came across as a set of tactics, I assure you it was not. It is a way of life.

First all people are sinners and have wicked hearts and the very best they can do is just filthy rags. Yes pastors are just wicked sinners. All members of the body are sinners. I do not expect any to never sin.

So when a pastor sins it is regrettable and sad but not unexpected.

A pastor is a member of the body the same as anyone else, even though he has the bully pulpit. All members are living stones that make up the temple of God on this earth with Jesus as the chief cornerstone.

Pastors come and pastors go, but Jesus is the head of the body, not the pastor. Jesus never fails. Much heartache would be avoided if all Christians would depend more on Jesus and less on their pastor.

I do not expect the pastor to always live without sin. He has feet of clay and makes many mistakes. I did not need to explain to my family every thing that the pastor might have mess up on. We all knew he was just a man and not a super Christian. I guess some thought he was.

As to being in the inner circle.  To me it is not desirable to be in the pastor's inner circle. I want to be in the inner circle with Jesus. Now if the pastor happens to be there with Jesus so be it. Now if the pastor is interested in following Jesus it might appear I am in the pastor's inner circle, but I assure you it is only because Jesus inner circle and the the pastor's inner circle happen to intersect, perhaps only temporarily.

As to despising the pastor. That may be the way it is for others. I taught my family to love the brethren.
Included is also pastors. We do not despise men because they perform the ministry of pastor, but rather give them due honor and deference, understanding all the while that we all are sinners who fail repeatedly. Jesus loves us all including the pastors, I can do no less.

As to criticism. I believe that criticism can be a good thing when used as a means of improvement and edification of the body of Christ. I personally welcome criticism and evaluation. How can one improve if he is unaware of his faults?


Walt said,

"The choice of staying or going is not always easy, and part of it depends upon what your other choices are.  If the church is the ONLY one in your area, you may need to stay there or else consider moving."


You are correct if we were making the decision on staying or going. I did not get to Hammond by making a decision based on my own human reasoning but rather the decision was made due to the unmistakable and clear leading of the LORD. The LORD is my shepherd.

I would not even consider going unless there was a clear and unmistakable leading of the LORD.

Putting it in other words, God would have to move me before I would leave FBCH, to this date he has not led me to leave. I'll just leave it up to Him. I stay close to the LORD so where he leads I will follow.

Oh, by the way, I have also taught my children to stay close to the LORD and follow him wherever he leads.
I believe in taking the advice of my Pastor, "The LORD is my Shepherd"

Pastor is a Latin word that came directly from the Latin Vulgate that means shepherd, just so you know.

Walt said,

"Oh, quoting Bro Hyles isn't a good authority.  One day I'd like to hear someone preach a topic like "Let's Hear It For the Quitters" or something like that.  "Never quit" is absolutely ridiculous, and comes out of Bro Hyles' unscriptural leadership philosophies."


Yes you are quite right he is not a good authority, but a classic example of a very flawed man.

Can you imagine a speaker saying don't quit smoking, don't quit drinking, don't quit immorality, yep ridiculous.

I so much appreciate your response.

I believe there is a difference between staying because the pastor has some quirks and staying when the members and or staff or whoever are allowed to stay as members of the body in sin. 

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

These are some things that were very noticeable in my two former pastors.

You might want to use this test in your current congregation and if you're its leader you might want to reevaluate your own motives.


http://www.stevehackman.net/9-warning-signs-your-pastor-may-be-building-his-own-kingdom/

1) The Pastor is more vocal about taking the nations, country, or city “for Jesus” than loving individual people.
2) Family members seem to fill key church job openings.
3)  The Pastor is not enthusiastic about uniting with other churches in their geographic region.
4) Your proximity to the Pastor is directly related to your ability to further the church’s vision.
5) The Pastor positions himself as having just a little better revelation of God’s will than everyone else.
6) In the Pastor’s eyes you are viewed as either “in” or “out”.
7) There is passive or aggressive pressure by the Pastor not to associate with others who have left the church.
8) The Pastor requires you to have your understanding of God, the Bible, and “the world” be in total agreement with his.
9) The Pastor uses pulpit teachings to address conflicts that should be dealt with personally or privately.

So, if your pastor, is a megalomaniac.
If your Pastor perverts the Great commission.
The Pastor uses the church, and you as a cash cow for HIS family.
If he instills a siege mentality in the congregation, and in your family.
If he uses and abuses you, and your family.
If your Pastor perverts Scripture as to HIS position.
If your Pastor forces you to be 100% or an outcast.
If your Pastor seeks to manipulate you to see those who left the church as enemies of the faith.
If your Pastor teaches false doctrine and expects you to be in lock step with said false doctrine.
If your Pastor violates Scripture about confronting a brother.

You should stay?
And rear your children in an atmosphere of false teaching, false doctrine and a poor example of what a Pastor or spiritual leader should be?

Sorry, but I think not!

I don't think he's expect him to stay that way.... but change.

I will say... that think pastors usually need to change as much.... if not MORE... than their congregations.

So those 'items' simply mean the pastor needs a little tweaking and maturity?!
That's like saying Hitler simply needed more time to mature and grow as a leader....
How long would you remain in a church where that was the 'norm'?

For some... decades. People should change instead of resorting to ..... moving on and have it your way somewhere else. This is one of the reasons you pastor a church in an area with many other churches...... all claiming to be the one doing work for God.

In all honesty..... I see division.

Exactly what do you see?

Using that logic you could lead your family to join a cult.
Domineering leadership, false doctrine, psychological pressure......but give it a few decades and you never know what might happen?

Sorry, but I think that is a ludicrous  position.

I wasn't saying that someone should stay decades. I was saying.... that some stay decades in just such a situation. All the while.... just as much a child of God as yourself. A child of God trying to serve Him.

This is often lost on both sides of the issue and I must admit that I've lost focus of this truth at times. Its one of the reasons I don't think always about be absolutely "right". Yu can't really know what the absolute right thing to do apart from following the Spirit of God. Often times, we have to have patience. Often times we have get "stuck" where we are to get where we are going.

The issue isn't if one is a child of God, but staying in a church that meets the basic criteria for a cult.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

Bruh:
I believe there is a difference between staying because the pastor has some quirks and staying when the members and or staff or whoever are allowed to stay as members of the body in sin.

Of course, you are exactly correct.

Mr Wilkinson posts the OP ridiculing, rightfully so, churches that tolerate such an un-Biblical atmosphere, while at the same time, he has been in a church just like that...for decades.

It's a puzzle to me....

 

[Bruh]

Bruh:
I believe there is a difference between staying because the pastor has some quirks and staying when the members and or staff or whoever are allowed to stay as members of the body in sin.

Of course, you are exactly correct.

Mr Wilkinson posts the OP ridiculing, rightfully so, churches that tolerate such an un-Biblical atmosphere, while at the same time, he has been in a church just like that...for decades.

It's a puzzle to me....

I know, he seems to ridicule his present membership nearly every post up stairs and down stairs.
I hate to be so mean but it's as if he is talking out of both sides of his mouth.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Bruh:
I believe there is a difference between staying because the pastor has some quirks and staying when the members and or staff or whoever are allowed to stay as members of the body in sin.

Of course, you are exactly correct.

Mr Wilkinson posts the OP ridiculing, rightfully so, churches that tolerate such an un-Biblical atmosphere, while at the same time, he has been in a church just like that...for decades.

It's a puzzle to me....

I know, he seems to ridicule his present membership nearly every post up stairs and down stairs.
I hate to be so mean but it's as if he is talking out of both sides of his mouth.

Spoken like true MOG representatives.....

Why is you people can't take criticism without telling someone to GET OUT?

I'll add # 10

10. The pastor's primary response to criticism..... If you don't like it. GET OUT!

Pitiful. Just down right Pitiful.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

1) The Pastor is more vocal about taking the nations, country, or city “for Jesus” than loving individual people.
2) Family members seem to fill key church job openings.
3)  The Pastor is not enthusiastic about uniting with other churches in their geographic region.
4) Your proximity to the Pastor is directly related to your ability to further the church’s vision.
5) The Pastor positions himself as having just a little better revelation of God’s will than everyone else.
6) In the Pastor’s eyes you are viewed as either “in” or “out”.
7) There is passive or aggressive pressure by the Pastor not to associate with others who have left the church.
8) The Pastor requires you to have your understanding of God, the Bible, and “the world” be in total agreement with his.
9) The Pastor uses pulpit teachings to address conflicts that should be dealt with personally or privately.

Either these are characteristics one should look for when choosing a church and a pastor OR
they are reasons to find a Bible centered church with a Biblically qualified Pastor.

They can't be both.

 

[Bruh]

Bruh:
I believe there is a difference between staying because the pastor has some quirks and staying when the members and or staff or whoever are allowed to stay as members of the body in sin.

Of course, you are exactly correct.

Mr Wilkinson posts the OP ridiculing, rightfully so, churches that tolerate such an un-Biblical atmosphere, while at the same time, he has been in a church just like that...for decades.

It's a puzzle to me....

I know, he seems to ridicule his present membership nearly every post up stairs and down stairs.
I hate to be so mean but it's as if he is talking out of both sides of his mouth.

Spoken like true MOG representatives.....

Why is you people can't take criticism without telling someone to GET OUT?

I'll add # 10

10. The pastor's primary response to criticism..... If you don't like it. GET OUT!

Pitiful. Just down right Pitiful.

Who's telling who to get out?

 

[praise_yeshua]

Bruh:
I believe there is a difference between staying because the pastor has some quirks and staying when the members and or staff or whoever are allowed to stay as members of the body in sin.

Of course, you are exactly correct.

Mr Wilkinson posts the OP ridiculing, rightfully so, churches that tolerate such an un-Biblical atmosphere, while at the same time, he has been in a church just like that...for decades.

It's a puzzle to me....

I know, he seems to ridicule his present membership nearly every post up stairs and down stairs.
I hate to be so mean but it's as if he is talking out of both sides of his mouth.

Spoken like true MOG representatives.....

Why is you people can't take criticism without telling someone to GET OUT?

I'll add # 10

10. The pastor's primary response to criticism..... If you don't like it. GET OUT!

Pitiful. Just down right Pitiful.

Who's telling who to get out?

Mr Wilkinson posts the OP ridiculing, rightfully so, churches that tolerate such an un-Biblical atmosphere, while at the same time, he has been in a church just like that...for decades.

It's a puzzle to me....

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

Bruh:
I believe there is a difference between staying because the pastor has some quirks and staying when the members and or staff or whoever are allowed to stay as members of the body in sin.

Of course, you are exactly correct.

Mr Wilkinson posts the OP ridiculing, rightfully so, churches that tolerate such an un-Biblical atmosphere, while at the same time, he has been in a church just like that...for decades.

It's a puzzle to me....

I know, he seems to ridicule his present membership nearly every post up stairs and down stairs.
I hate to be so mean but it's as if he is talking out of both sides of his mouth.

Spoken like true MOG representatives.....

Why is you people can't take criticism without telling someone to GET OUT?

I'll add # 10

10. The pastor's primary response to criticism..... If you don't like it. GET OUT!

Pitiful. Just down right Pitiful.

Who's telling who to get out?

Mr Wilkinson posts the OP ridiculing, rightfully so, churches that tolerate such an un-Biblical atmosphere, while at the same time, he has been in a church just like that...for decades.

It's a puzzle to me....

That was my post, not Bruh's.
And I wasn't commanding or demanding anyone to 'get out'.

What exactly, are you arguing or postulating here?
Following what appears to be your logic, one could justify remaining in a cult....strong, selfish, manipulative leadership.
Nepotism openly practiced and promoted.
False doctrine.
Psychological manipulation.

But, give it a decade or two and see what happens??!!
Please.

 

[Bob H]

1) The Pastor is more vocal about taking the nations, country, or city “for Jesus” than loving individual people.
2) Family members seem to fill key church job openings.
3)  The Pastor is not enthusiastic about uniting with other churches in their geographic region.
4) Your proximity to the Pastor is directly related to your ability to further the church’s vision.
5) The Pastor positions himself as having just a little better revelation of God’s will than everyone else.
6) In the Pastor’s eyes you are viewed as either “in” or “out”.
7) There is passive or aggressive pressure by the Pastor not to associate with others who have left the church.
8) The Pastor requires you to have your understanding of God, the Bible, and “the world” be in total agreement with his.
9) The Pastor uses pulpit teachings to address conflicts that should be dealt with personally or privately.

Either these are characteristics one should look for when choosing a church and a pastor.....

Simple isn't it, either don't go there or don't hire him.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Bruh:
I believe there is a difference between staying because the pastor has some quirks and staying when the members and or staff or whoever are allowed to stay as members of the body in sin.

Of course, you are exactly correct.

Mr Wilkinson posts the OP ridiculing, rightfully so, churches that tolerate such an un-Biblical atmosphere, while at the same time, he has been in a church just like that...for decades.

It's a puzzle to me....

I know, he seems to ridicule his present membership nearly every post up stairs and down stairs.
I hate to be so mean but it's as if he is talking out of both sides of his mouth.

Spoken like true MOG representatives.....

Why is you people can't take criticism without telling someone to GET OUT?

I'll add # 10

10. The pastor's primary response to criticism..... If you don't like it. GET OUT!

Pitiful. Just down right Pitiful.

Who's telling who to get out?

Mr Wilkinson posts the OP ridiculing, rightfully so, churches that tolerate such an un-Biblical atmosphere, while at the same time, he has been in a church just like that...for decades.

It's a puzzle to me....

That was my post, not Bruh's.
And I wasn't commanding or demanding anyone to 'get out'.

What exactly, are you arguing or postulating here?
Following what appears to be your logic, one could justify remaining in a cult....strong, selfish, manipulative leadership.
Nepotism openly practiced and promoted.
False doctrine.
Psychological manipulation.

But, give it a decade or two and see what happens??!!
Please.

You're the ones trying to discredit the OP by saying it something a cult would do.

TB .. I bet you fellowship with some friend pastors that are pretty much in the same neighborhood of practice as what's in the OP. In fact, while you're up this way at the Sword of Lord conference at Gospel Light.... want to meet up and go over it with some of your friends there? I'm up for it if you are. I'd like to see you tell them they've got a cult on their hands. Who you want to hit first. I know the former pastor of a church that had a few problem over here in Arcadia a few yards ago...... he's calling Gospel Light home now that's he's an "evangelist"'!! Want to start with him?

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

You're the ones trying to discredit the OP by saying it something a cult would do.

TB .. I bet you fellowship with some friend pastors that are pretty much in the same neighborhood of practice as what's in the OP. In fact, while you're up this way at the Sword of Lord conference at Gospel Light.... want to meet up and go over it with some of your friends there? I'm up for it if you are. I'd like to see you tell them they've got a cult on their hands. Who you want to hit first. I know the former pastor of a church that had a few problem over here in Arcadia a few yards ago...... he's calling Gospel Light home now that's he's an "evangelist"'!! Want to start with him?

No, I said that by following your logic, you could justify staying in a cult.

I'll bet you I do not fellowship with any Pastor who would fit all 9 of the points in the OP's article.
And, the points in bold below (possible exception of #1) absolutely define cult-like behavior. And you put all 9 together in one man, one church and it should be avoided at all costs!

And I am no apologist for Gospel Light, although from what I know about it, I could not attribute most of those characteristics to Bro Roberson. But I would not attend GL as my home church!
And, my reputation among the IFB brethren in our area is far from stellar...they openly criticize me and our ministry as liberal...because I am openly critical of many of the characteristics mentioned in the OP.
Now, not all IFB's fit that criteria. My record on the FFF is, according to some, as an IFB apologist. And, a few think I am an IFB Pastor.
So to accuse me of IFB bashing or broad brushing is far from validated by my posting record.

However, the sum total of the points in the OP describe a dysfunctional, perverted ministry, IMO!
And, again, IMO, the points in the OP describe First Hammond, especially in the Schaap years, and for much of Dr Hyles ministry.

1) The Pastor is more vocal about taking the nations, country, or city “for Jesus” than loving individual people.
2) Family members seem to fill key church job openings.
3)  The Pastor is not enthusiastic about uniting with other churches in their geographic region.
4) Your proximity to the Pastor is directly related to your ability to further the church’s vision.
5) The Pastor positions himself as having just a little better revelation of God’s will than everyone else.
6) In the Pastor’s eyes you are viewed as either “in” or “out”.
7) There is passive or aggressive pressure by the Pastor not to associate with others who have left the church.
8) The Pastor requires you to have your understanding of God, the Bible, and “the world” be in total agreement with his.
9) The Pastor uses pulpit teachings to address conflicts that should be dealt with personally or privately.

 

[AmazedbyGrace]

Having had a pastor that clicked all those boxes, I want to say that wolves like this tend to chase off anyone who dares to stand up to them. People get told things like "Some people just don't do well with a strong pastor"...and then shown the door. Shortly afterward there will be a Sunday evening sermon about how it is a sin to vocalize any disagreement with the pastor.

A wolf will simply will not tolerate dissent.

I disagree that a family can sit under a wolf without absorbing some damage. Sure, it helps to know the guy you are paying is a wolf, but seeing others damaged by him will eventually tug at your conscience. You are bound to try to right things, and that will often not end well. And pastor-worship will start to disgust you.

And never leave a wolf's church quietly.

 

[praise_yeshua]

You're the ones trying to discredit the OP by saying it something a cult would do.

TB .. I bet you fellowship with some friend pastors that are pretty much in the same neighborhood of practice as what's in the OP. In fact, while you're up this way at the Sword of Lord conference at Gospel Light.... want to meet up and go over it with some of your friends there? I'm up for it if you are. I'd like to see you tell them they've got a cult on their hands. Who you want to hit first. I know the former pastor of a church that had a few problem over here in Arcadia a few yards ago...... he's calling Gospel Light home now that's he's an "evangelist"'!! Want to start with him?

No, I said that by following your logic, you could justify staying in a cult.

I'll bet you I do not fellowship with any Pastor who would fit all 9 of the points in the OP's article.
And, the points in bold below (possible exception of #1) absolutely define cult-like behavior. And you put all 9 together in one man, one church and it should be avoided at all costs!

And I am no apologist for Gospel Light, although from what I know about it, I could not attribute most of those characteristics to Bro Roberson. But I would not attend GL as my home church!
And, my reputation among the IFB brethren in our area is far from stellar...they openly criticize me and our ministry as liberal...because I am openly critical of many of the characteristics mentioned in the OP.
Now, not all IFB's fit that criteria. My record on the FFF is, according to some, as an IFB apologist. And, a few think I am an IFB Pastor.
So to accuse me of IFB bashing or broad brushing is far from validated by my posting record.

However, the sum total of the points in the OP describe a dysfunctional, perverted ministry, IMO!
And, again, IMO, the points in the OP describe First Hammond, especially in the Schaap years, and for much of Dr Hyles ministry.

1) The Pastor is more vocal about taking the nations, country, or city “for Jesus” than loving individual people.
2) Family members seem to fill key church job openings.
3)  The Pastor is not enthusiastic about uniting with other churches in their geographic region.
4) Your proximity to the Pastor is directly related to your ability to further the church’s vision.
5) The Pastor positions himself as having just a little better revelation of God’s will than everyone else.
6) In the Pastor’s eyes you are viewed as either “in” or “out”.
7) There is passive or aggressive pressure by the Pastor not to associate with others who have left the church.
8) The Pastor requires you to have your understanding of God, the Bible, and “the world” be in total agreement with his.
9) The Pastor uses pulpit teachings to address conflicts that should be dealt with personally or privately.

I like you TB. Pretty much have from the first time we interacted on the FFF. I have nothing against you but I generally know how these things work. I know very good men that tolerant things among their friends that they would not tolerate in others. I think you know this. I know you're an exception but the lines get blurry at times. Some men do this so they can actually try to change things where they can. I applaud such efforts. Many though.... they are just cowardly...or they seek "their own".

Its has been my experience that humanity, in general, is all about self preservation. You put a person's livelihood or record on the line..... and you'll see the claws come out. It usually doesn't matter how good these people think of themselves.

Having said that.... there is a real, genuine need, for people, as described in the OP...... to change. To be ministered to. For some its a hopeless cause. For some..... there might just be hope.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

I like you TB. Pretty much have from the first time we interacted on the FFF. I have nothing against you but I generally know how these things work. I know very good men that tolerant things among their friends that they would not tolerate in others. I think you know this. I know you're an exception but the lines get blurry at times. Some men do this so they can actually try to change things where they can. I applaud such efforts. Many though.... they are just cowardly...or they seek "their own".

Its has been my experience that humanity, in general, is all about self preservation. You put a person's livelihood or record on the line..... and you'll see the claws come out. It usually doesn't matter how good these people think of themselves.

Having said that.... there is a real, genuine need, for people, as described in the OP...... to change. To be ministered to. For some its a hopeless cause. For some..... there might just be hope.

My experience as an IFB For most of my 60+ years has not been with the lunatic fringe of the movement. Many of the stories told here of abuse by IFB pastors seem too ludicrous to be true! But sadly many of them are true.
In my IFB life, I was in 7 different churches in 4 different states, I only came in personal contact with one that would be called an Xer church. I was a college student at the time, but knew they were wrong.

I am not have not and will not condemn all IFB's, but again.....the collective points in the OP reflect a grade 'A' loon and should be treated as one would treat a cult, IMO.

And, IMO, the poster who posted the OP attends a church that, in it's past, could serve as the poster church for loons. I do not understand, on one hand ridiculing and criticizing a church you have been loyal to for decades.
But,I guess that's just me. 

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

Having had a pastor that clicked all those boxes, I want to say that wolves like this tend to chase off anyone who dares to stand up to them. People get told things like "Some people just don't do well with a strong pastor"...and then shown the door. Shortly afterward there will be a Sunday evening sermon about how it is a sin to vocalize any disagreement with the pastor.

A wolf will simply will not tolerate dissent.

I disagree that a family can sit under a wolf without absorbing some damage. Sure, it helps to know the guy you are paying is a wolf, but seeing others damaged by him will eventually tug at your conscience. You are bound to try to right things, and that will often not end well. And pastor-worship will start to disgust you.

And never leave a wolf's church quietly.

This proves that even a stopped clock is right twice a day. 

(And I simply refer to the fact that Amazed and I agree on one point!)